Introducing the New Rules - DPChallenge Forums

Tamron AF 28-200mm f/3.8-5.6 Aspherical XR IF Super Zoom for Pentax

11/21/2006 09:46:34 AM · #376

Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

that's why the rules need to be simplified and standardized to level the playing field for everyone and not give advantages to higher tech cameras.

the fact of the matter is that this IS an uneven playing field. you can't level the playing field between a 1.3MP camera phone camera and a 5D with studio setup and 1600W lights.

the rules are about making sure everyone produces their image within the same time and processing constraints... not about making everything fair and equal.

dallasdux

Pentax *ist DL

11/21/2006 10:48:04 AM · #377

Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

that's why the rules need to be simplified and standardized to level the playing field for everyone and not give advantages to higher tech cameras.

the fact of the matter is that this IS an uneven playing field. you can't level the playing field between a 1.3MP camera phone camera and a 5D with studio setup and 1600W lights.

the rules are about making sure everyone produces their image within the same time and processing constraints... not about making everything fair and equal.

Agreed. I don't expect to be able to compete in quality with a number of people on this site. I mean, some users on here actually do this (photography) for a living. I just started 3 months ago. My intent is to improve my skillset.

The good news is, even non-professional photographers can win ribbons in the competitions and do. So, one day I hope to be good enough to seriously compete with them, but I don't think I'll ever have a lot of the professional equipment they use. I simply can't afford it and it's not my number one priority. An average camera with an above average photographer can take great shots. An above average camera with a below average photographer is likely not going to do as well.

Message edited by author 2006-11-21 10:49:13.

11/21/2006 10:52:59 AM · #378

Originally posted by talmy:

Originally posted by alfresco:

So we're now all in agreement this

You may
- use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry.

Will be changed to

You may
- while photographing your entry, use any feature of your camera that does not violate any rule.

So somebody with a tilt-shift lens can't use it in a basic rules challenge because it can change the perspective? And (also under basic rules) gradulated ND filters can't be used because the don't apply an effect evenly to the entire image? And how about polarizing filters?

You are correct, I worded that poorly. I'm speaking specifically of post processing, everything done after the shutter actuation is post processing - anything in front of the sensor is legal, anything behind the sensor must conform to the rules.

You may
- while photographing your entry, use any post processing feature of your camera that does not violate any rule.

Bear_Music

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

11/21/2006 11:45:44 AM · #379

Originally posted by alfresco:

You may
- while photographing your entry, use any post processing feature of your camera that does not violate any rule.

How about just:

You may not use any in-camera post-processing features that would violate any of these rules. This includes, but is not limited to, the combining of separate exposures into a single composite image and (in basic editing) the use of in-camera "slimming" features, which distort the image.

But the list would get longer and longer, wouldn't it?

R.

Message edited by author 2006-11-21 11:46:13.

talmy

Nikon D300s

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 16-85 f/3.5-5.6G ED VR

11/21/2006 11:53:25 AM · #380

Originally posted by muckpond:

fwiw, the advanced rules actually say:

Originally posted by Advanced Rules:

You may not...
...use software to correct perspective...

Huh? I read in the November Advanced Rules "You may [...] use software to correct perspective, lens defects, or minor misalignments."

11/21/2006 12:31:06 PM · #381

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by alfresco:

You may
- while photographing your entry, use any post processing feature of your camera that does not violate any rule.

How about just:

You may not use any in-camera post-processing features that would violate any of these rules. This includes, but is not limited to, the combining of separate exposures into a single composite image and (in basic editing) the use of in-camera "slimming" features, which distort the image.

But the list would get longer and longer, wouldn't it?

R.

Why make a list? The rules are the list.

11/21/2006 01:25:21 PM · #382

Originally posted by talmy:

Originally posted by muckpond:

fwiw, the advanced rules actually say:

Originally posted by Advanced Rules:

You may not...
...use software to correct perspective...

Huh? I read in the November Advanced Rules "You may [...] use software to correct perspective, lens defects, or minor misalignments."

you're right. i r dum. that will teach me to drink in the morning.

11/21/2006 01:26:38 PM · #383

Originally posted by alfresco:

You may
- while photographing your entry, use any post processing feature of your camera that does not violate any rule.

this reads much better to me. give me a bit to let it soak in, but it's something i could stand behind.

i don't want to start listing specific capabilities that are and are not allowed. it would be forever changing.

Bear_Music

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

11/21/2006 04:37:15 PM · #384

Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by alfresco:
You may
- while photographing your entry, use any post processing feature of your camera that does not violate any rule.

this reads much better to me. give me a bit to let it soak in, but it's something i could stand behind.

i don't want to start listing specific capabilities that are and are not allowed. it would be forever changing.

That was kind of my point, actually :-)

E.

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

11/21/2006 04:59:52 PM · #385

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

That was kind of my point, actually :-)

E.

E?

Easterbunny? Eduardo? Englebert Humperdinck? are you holding out a secret identity on us?

idnic

Canon EOS-60D

11/21/2006 05:07:42 PM · #386

Originally posted by muckpond:

E?

Easterbunny? Eduardo? Englebert Humperdinck? are you holding out a secret identity on us?

Hahahahaaaa

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

11/21/2006 05:08:39 PM · #387

The "E" kinda threw me for a minute as well.

At least you know we are paying attention, Robt. Well, sortof.

ambaker

Google Glass Google Glass

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

11/26/2006 07:05:42 PM · #388

Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

that's why the rules need to be simplified and standardized to level the playing field for everyone and not give advantages to higher tech cameras.

the fact of the matter is that this IS an uneven playing field. you can't level the playing field between a 1.3MP camera phone camera and a 5D with studio setup and 1600W lights.

the rules are about making sure everyone produces their image within the same time and processing constraints... not about making everything fair and equal.

No, the playing field cannot be leveled. Nor should it be in most cases. However, to allow manipulation in camera, that would be disallowed outside of the camera, seems hypocritical to me, and allowing an unfair advantage. Processing is processing inside or outside of the camera. You have a better lens, fine. More pixels, fine. A better sensor, fine. But when purely software functions are carried out, then they should be allowed inside or outside of the camera. Or banned inside and outside of the camera.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

11/26/2006 07:58:45 PM · #389

Well,I ain't inter-n no moe pitchers til thiss be setlled fer feer i mite vierlate un-noingly one er moe o theese ruels an geet me bowuels pared outa me middel an sit ahblaze afore me owne eies. ?Whut f thase geet da haids mext upp n al thems quaters swatched rond en da boyz en gulls soed bak rong ann thay keds getta lukin fer thay momma er daddie an thaa git al confuzed.? Itwas betta withe lesser ruls ta memmer. THansks; feller frum Scotchlund; fer given em da ideah. E_

klstover

Panasonic DMC-FZ8

11/26/2006 11:29:31 PM · #390

Originally posted by ambaker:

You have a better lens, fine. More pixels, fine. A better sensor, fine. But when purely software functions are carried out, then they should be allowed inside or outside of the camera. Or banned inside and outside of the camera.

I hate to post something simply saying "I agree" but... I agree.

crayon

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II

11/27/2006 12:44:15 AM · #391

I think people should stop asking for rule-changes so that they can get away with things their cameras can do, while things their camera could not, be banned.

chimericvisions

Canon EOS-60D

11/27/2006 01:34:51 AM · #392

Originally posted by crayon:

I think people should stop asking for rule-changes so that they can get away with things their cameras can do, while things their camera could not, be banned.

When they start adding rules where "This can not be done unless you use Photoshop CS2 (Windows Vista-Only)" it'll level things out. As is (and it's something I've always been against since my first encounter with it) that's effectively what these rules are.

Multiple exposures are illegal. Unless you use a Nikon that allows you to do it in the camera. That gives an unfair advantage to one group of users that another group does not get unless they pay thousands of dollars to switch camera gear. One photographer using two equivalent cameras (one Canon and one Nikon) performing the very same post processing will never be able to achieve even SIMILAR results because using one he is given a loophole that he is not when using the other.

All other rules are evenly allowed across the board. If I can spot edit dust in one program, I can do it in any other program. If I can use Noise Ninja, someone else can use Neat Image.

This is pretty much the only rule that actually angers me and that I find seriously tips the scales. No matter how much skill I achieve and no amount of classes I can take will ever allow me to be able to produce the same effect as someone who uses a camera that does in-body exposure merging, legally.

Edit: typo

Message edited by author 2006-11-27 01:44:06.

crayon

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II

11/27/2006 02:06:01 AM · #393

in that case, maybe we should ban RAW format too, since it gives unfair advantage to cameras that could do RAW. Cameras that shoot JPEG only are at a disadvantage because the post-editing will result in poor compression quality. And here's some sample replies:

"well, dont change the rules, because my camera can do it (RAW)"
"dont change that, it's his/her fault his camera is crappy"

both replies above could also be applied to those who are asking for certain features be banned because their cameras dont have it.

chimericvisions

Canon EOS-60D

11/27/2006 03:12:17 AM · #394

Originally posted by crayon:

RAW, however, is not a software post-processing effect. If you want to get down to it, JPEG *is* a software post-processing effect, but that's irrelevant. A RAW vs. JPEG image, in the end, will result in effectively the same image. There is some level of quality sacrificed by shooting JPEG, but it's not so significant as to be a balance tipping issue. Hell, if it were a requirement to shoot only in JPEG, I would. It's not that big a deal. It's no different than using a 2MP camera vs. a 12MP camera. In the end we're all limited to a 600px photo anyway - all those megapixels are fairly useless.

The issue isn't simply a feature that one camera has over another - it's a feature that one camera has that is unattainable in computer-based post-processing. My camera does green-hued sepia... someone else's camera may not do that in-body, but they can get the same effect using their software, using legal procedures.

Message edited by author 2006-11-27 03:13:39.

12/07/2006 10:10:39 PM · #395

Originally posted by alfresco:

You may
- while photographing your entry, use any post processing feature of your camera that does not violate any rule.

???

I've yet to see a valid argument for in-camera multi-exposures being allowed, would someone care to elaborate.

crayon

12/07/2006 10:13:54 PM · #396

Originally posted by alfresco:

I've yet to see a valid argument for in-camera multi-exposures being allowed, would someone care to elaborate.

It's still allowed, AFAIK.
Quoted off the Rules page:
"use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry."

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Nikon

12/07/2006 10:16:41 PM · #397

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by alfresco:
I've yet to see a valid argument for in-camera multi-exposures being allowed, would someone care to elaborate.

It's still allowed, AFAIK.
Quoted off the Rules page:
"use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry."

Correct. Terry pointed me to discuss this in this thread so as to not confuse people reading the other rules thread.

I'm just confused as to why this is allowed.

jdannels

Nikon D300s

12/07/2006 10:41:40 PM · #398

Originally posted by alfresco:

I'm just confused as to why this is allowed.

It was discussed at length somewhere in this thread, I think you just have to find it. sorry not too helpful, but its buried in here. From what I remember anything in camera is ok and won't be Dq'ed. Its the ruling that came down. Remember #1 in the guide :).