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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> "Too dark", "seems a little dark", "could be..."
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 10/16/2006 11:18:05 AM · #1
I'm not trying to be bitter here but please, when you think of an image as too dark, can people think of the fact that not all screens are calibrated the same way. For my current shot i used three flashes and checked on three computers to make sure that my image isn't too dark. So simply take calibration intop account when you vote cause it sucks to be shot down with "it's too dark" or "needs to be lighter".

That's all i have to say.

And good luck with the morning challenge.

Chris
 10/16/2006 11:23:10 AM · #2
So if the screen looks completely black to me I'm supposed to assume it's the best shot ever and give it a 10 even though I can't see it to know? Extreme example, but...
 10/16/2006 11:24:53 AM · #3
I think he's just asking for a little leniency on the part of voters for the differences of machines. And I think you knew that...

10/16/2006 11:25:40 AM · #4
i got the same comments on my unrelatedness shot.

i took the hint and recalibrated for next time...
 10/16/2006 11:27:18 AM · #5
or would you prefer them to just give you a low score and not tell you why?

to me challenges are about feedback. If I think your photo is too dark, then I'm right - by definition. I think taking time to tell you that is actually fairly considerate.

I have certainly been more than disappointed in the past with voters not seeing how bright my creative photographic star shines - but in the end I realize that at least I know why they didn't like it.

Look at that, two totally helpful posts from me to you in like 3 minutes!
10/16/2006 11:27:57 AM · #6
leniency..yes that's the word.

Is it possible to calibrate a laptop screen? Do i need to buy a gizmo for it? how do i go about it?
 10/16/2006 11:32:09 AM · #7
i get this alot. shots look good on my screens which are pretty bright but many comment that they are too dark. when i want a good score i make my images lighter than i want to when i want to show my vision to those that can see it i don't.
here is an example where i didn't compromise and still did well.

to me i see the wonderfull green tones around the stark branches but those with darker monitors just se black which still works for this shot.

here is one that didn't.

i see most of the detail in the jail but when i view it on my monitors at work it is almost black except the mattress. I knew this but left it because it would lose the feel if it was much lighter.
10/16/2006 11:38:01 AM · #8
Mate, you re being pretty dambn intense here. All i asked was leniency due to differences in hardware. Is it too much to ask? And yes, your example was extreme and conseuqently useless.

Originally posted by smyk:
leniency..yes that's the word.

Is it possible to calibrate a laptop screen? Do i need to buy a gizmo for it? how do i go about it?
10/16/2006 11:39:11 AM · #9
Hm, ok. NOw i'm being intense. Sorry. I apologize the attitude in my last post

Originally posted by smyk:
Mate, you re being pretty dambn intense here. All i asked was leniency due to differences in hardware. Is it too much to ask? And yes, your example was extreme and conseuqently useless.

Originally posted by smyk:
leniency..yes that's the word.

Is it possible to calibrate a laptop screen? Do i need to buy a gizmo for it? how do i go about it?
10/16/2006 11:44:16 AM · #10
Originally posted by smyk:
Hm, ok. NOw i'm being intense. Sorry. I apologize the attitude in my last post

Originally posted by smyk:
Mate, you re being pretty dambn intense here. All i asked was leniency due to differences in hardware. Is it too much to ask? And yes, your example was extreme and conseuqently useless.

Originally posted by smyk:
leniency..yes that's the word.

Is it possible to calibrate a laptop screen? Do i need to buy a gizmo for it? how do i go about it?


It wasn't meant to be "intense", but to point out the silliness of the request. How can we judge what we can't see, and where do we draw the line? Monitor calibration ultimately is an urban legend. Dark images rarely do well on DPC for this reason. I get killed for dark images all the time. If you want higher scores, don't submit dark images. Such is life on this site. But if you like your image, then stop fretting over it.
 10/16/2006 11:45:35 AM · #11
my shot isn't dark at all. It's actually light and screen calibration is not a myth at all ;)
 10/16/2006 11:57:04 AM · #12
Originally posted by smyk:
my shot isn't dark at all. It's actually light and screen calibration is not a myth at all ;)


but the fact is that many screens can't get as bright as some of the new ones even if calibrated. the ones we use at some of my stores are way dark compared to my laptops or my lcd at home. so for many people there is nothing they can do.

when trying to teach a large group of people you teach to the lowest level in the gruop. when trying to get a good score you have to think along the same lines think about that 20-40% of voters that have darker monitors.
 10/16/2006 11:58:57 AM · #13
If you post process your images on a properly calibrated monitor then that is the best you can do. Complaints about images being too dark should be minimized. Same is true of complaints that images are to bright and washed out as well.

Of course there are going to be people with improperly calibrated monitors reviewing your images and occasionally incorrectly assess its brightness if they are not aware of their monitor's calibration.

It is the responsibility of the reviewer to take into account the quality of their monitor when voting.

However, if you find reviewers consistently telling you that your images are too dark then chances are good there is something to it. It could be your own calibration is off or its your processing style. For example, if you like low-key processing it should not be surprising that reviewers will report images are dark.
10/16/2006 11:59:33 AM · #14
Originally posted by smyk:
my shot isn't dark at all. It's actually light and screen calibration is not a myth at all ;)

Not all viewers/voters are using properly calibrated monitors. Maybe they can't calibrate them, or perhaps even don't know how.

It's unfortunate, but I think the overall point of feedback in this thread is you have to live with it. Either don't submit an image that doesn't view well on monitors not up to speed, adjust your image to compensate (but then risk poor votes/feedback from those who are calibrated), or stay away from darker images altogether for challenge entries.

A lot of times I'll check an entry on a cruddy monitor (this one at work certainly qualifies) on purpose to see how a segment of the voting population may see it. If it's really bad I'll make some adjustments.

There's a couple of other threads out there from past conversations on this. Several philosophies exist on handling this issue. No matter what you do, it's tough to please everyone (all hardware types).
 10/16/2006 12:04:43 PM · #15
smyk's point is well taken. Many times the charm of an image depends on controlled lighting and uncalibrated screens do a nasty job on low key images as well as those images that depend on selected strips of lighting. An uncalibrated screen will show parts of backgrounds that are never meant to be seen or hide valuable visual information. At worst, they distort the meaning of the light and shadow relationship which is all we have to work with.

Some images depend on a calibrated screen. This subject has popped up before and many people, including myself, are sacrificing making images that are so close to the border. Of course, this will limit this delicate expression somewhat, but there is no way with the present technology to have automatic color calibration across the board. Not only that, some members are overwhelmed by the process and subjective calibration yields results in accordance with what the viewer finds acceptable and this varies with the ability to discern tonal gradation.

I just wish to state that it is a legitimate complaint.
 10/16/2006 12:38:00 PM · #16
Unfortunately I think if you have a dark shot then you're going to come across this, regardless of calibration.

On LCDs, the darkness or otherwise of a particular area of the screen can vary dramatically with viewing angle. For example, I know that on my screen, which I'm looking slightly up to, sometimes I will need to raise my head up and look downwards to see dark tones.

I could re-calibrate it, but I'd still get a different view depending on how I looked at the screen.
 10/16/2006 12:40:30 PM · #17
My entry for Faceless Portrait suffered a lot from being too dark...though on mine and my wife's monitors it looked ok! But, at the same time I knew it was a risk and I accepted that some people couldn't see what I saw.
10/16/2006 12:45:34 PM · #18
Originally posted by digitalknight:
If I think your photo is too dark, then I'm right - by definition.


The issue is which monitor is producing the truer image. If you compare on 3 monitors. And someone has an old CRT uncalibrated with the contrast boosted or the brightness dimmed so their word processor looks best. You can be essentially slamming an excellent photo for your bad monitor and/or laziness.
 10/16/2006 12:47:42 PM · #19
Originally posted by mist:
Unfortunately I think if you have a dark shot then you're going to come across this, regardless of calibration.

On LCDs, the darkness or otherwise of a particular area of the screen can vary dramatically with viewing angle. For example, I know that on my screen, which I'm looking slightly up to, sometimes I will need to raise my head up and look downwards to see dark tones.

I could re-calibrate it, but I'd still get a different view depending on how I looked at the screen.


This is a big problem with laptops. Calibration is meaningless, unless every time you open your laptop you open it to the absolutely exact same point. Otherwise the angle variance will change it.
 10/16/2006 01:01:26 PM · #20
Also, if someone with a darker monitor is in a well-lit room the image will appear even darker and they will probably not see as much detail in the darker areas.
 10/16/2006 01:17:21 PM · #21
A while ago I calibrated my monitor "for print", to gamma 2.2, as I've seen recommended many times here. In editing images at this setting, I knew they would be too dark for people who don't calibrate (which, face it, is most anybody, especially outside the DPC world) and who use older monitors, so I would periodically de-calibrate and check the images before uploading them, especially if I did a lot of post-processing. Eventually I moved to a halfway point -- gamma 1.6 -- because I kept getting comments that things I could see in my images were invisible to other people, but I didn't just go back to gamma 1.0, because hey, I have to be calibrated properly for prints, right?

Then I got prints made of some images that I had edited at gamma 1.5, and they were way so much darker than they were on my screen. In fact... they looked exactly like the images did on the screen if I set the gamma at 1.0. So I said to heck with it, slid that gamma slider back to the default position, and left it there. Occasionally I'll check an image at 2.2, and it looks pretty washed-out to me (as does the entire rest of my screen), but I figure people looking at things at 2.2 are used to looking at washed-out images, and at least everything that's supposed to be in the shot is visible. And it's not that hard to check a highly-processed image at different gamma settings -- at least it's not with my video card. It's a good idea to do that regardless of where you keep it set ordinarily, because sometimes post-processing that looks fine on your screen looks absolutely horrible at a different setting.


Message edited by author 2006-10-16 13:20:16.
 10/16/2006 02:46:04 PM · #22


I use a laptop screen that is calibrated and I can see all of the green and the details in this tree no matter which way I look at it, unless I view my screen at an almost perpendicular angle, which, who the blank uses a computer like that?

anyway... wasn't trying to rant

maybe if you (not anyone in particular, I mean you in general) run across someone who says your image is too dark, look through their comments made and see if they are consistently commenting on darkness and if they are, send them a polite yet informative PM suggesting that they might want to check on their monitor and perhaps vote a little more lenient if they realize that their monitor is the problem.
 10/16/2006 02:51:00 PM · #23
When you are super serious about your entry, go into your monitor settings and change it to any extremes you can imagine. Another idea is to use View/Proof setup in Photoshop where you can simulate how stuff looks on a mac and PC. My best images usually are pretty tolerable regardless of setting.

Also - I haven't read every word in this thread so sorry if it's been mentioned but you can also make sure the little gradient of grey swatches provided by DPC web-site is visible all the way across.

Message edited by author 2006-10-16 14:53:34.
 10/16/2006 02:55:07 PM · #24
Originally posted by metatate:
When you are super serious about your entry, go into your monitor settings and change it to any extremes you can imagine. Another idea is to use View/Proof setup in Photoshop where you can simulate how stuff looks on a mac and PC. My best images usually are pretty tolerable regardless of setting.


I hadn't tried that before, and I'm amazed how much brighter the Mac setting is over the Windows.
 10/16/2006 03:18:36 PM · #25
True - the default setting for the mac is much brighter.
PCs and macs use different GAMMA 2.2 vs 1.8 respectively - .
I have adjusted my Mac to be more of a middle ground because many winning images looked too bright to me :) -

Message edited by author 2006-10-16 15:19:33.
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