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09/26/2006 11:51:12 AM · #26 |
so your saying our country went to shit during his presidency considering he wasnt caught until the end of it? you cant mix your morals with our politics. but since you brought up morals and ethics, i'm sure there are a lot of things that go on in this country that you wouldnt agree with.
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
just because there is a chance that other "leader" or prominent people are doing it doesn't make it right. When someone's morals, ethics and principles are screwed up, there is noway that person can properly lead an entire country. If he can't even lead his own life, how can he lead a country? |
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09/26/2006 12:04:53 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
so your saying our country went to shit during his presidency considering he wasnt caught until the end of it? you cant mix your morals with our politics. but since you brought up morals and ethics, i'm sure there are a lot of things that go on in this country that you wouldnt agree with.
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
just because there is a chance that other "leader" or prominent people are doing it doesn't make it right. When someone's morals, ethics and principles are screwed up, there is noway that person can properly lead an entire country. If he can't even lead his own life, how can he lead a country? |
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"my" morals? So according to you cheating on your spouse is ok then?
and by the way, yes I think it was going to the pot with him leading. |
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09/26/2006 12:09:55 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
I agree with jonr.....i thought it was wrong that he cheated on his wife, but i dont think he is a bad president because of that. There are a lot of people in high places who cheat on their spouses, its just not published. And i've heard people say well he was supposed to be running the country meanwhile he's gettin his rocks off, please...you think your boss couldnt be doing it? what about your accountant? two very important people securing your financial future. It was only a big deal because people always need something to talk about and to point fingers at someone. What about the slut of an intern that did it? ohhh nooo she was the victim. everything is always one-sided. they both were wrong, who cares move on. If he could run again i'd vote for him. |
Harry Stonecipher, President/CEO of Boeing was caught cheating on his wife with an executive that worked under him. He was fired for it (technically he resigned, but if he didn't resign he would have been fired).
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09/26/2006 12:10:20 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
... and by the way, yes I think it was going to the pot with him leading. |
Yup, rousing economy, Federal Budget surplus, paying down our multi-trillion dollar national debt -- really rough compared with today's record deficits and loss of real wages (not a problem for those with "unearned income" -- like the wealthiest 5% or so who got all those tax cuts). But hey, no problem -- if you're medically uninsured and have a serious illness, you can't declare bankruptcy anymore either ...
If you like a return to a feudal society in which you have a few rich barons and a massive servant class, then Bush is clearly your man. |
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09/26/2006 12:18:24 PM · #30 |
Although I started this whole thing, I'm pretty well sticking clear now. I will agree with Paul, however, and echo that nobody in their right mind would consider the 8 years of prosperity under the Clinton administration as anything but successful. At best he was directly responsible for the prosperity, at worst he managed to keep the ship from tipping while riding the wave. So the argument that a morally flawed individual (and I agree Clinton had his definite flaws) is unable to lead a country seems suspect.
If you really agree with the postulate, I hope you are willing to vote against your party and vote many of the republicans out of congress. Corruption is running rampant there and it's time for a change. Yes, I'm sure the democrats after 15 years of running things will be just as corrupt, but one needs to change the bathwater from time to time.
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09/26/2006 12:34:29 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
... and by the way, yes I think it was going to the pot with him leading. |
Yup, rousing economy, Federal Budget surplus, paying down our multi-trillion dollar national debt -- really rough compared with today's record deficits and loss of real wages (not a problem for those with "unearned income" -- like the wealthiest 5% or so who got all those tax cuts). But hey, no problem -- if you're medically uninsured and have a serious illness, you can't declare bankruptcy anymore either ...
If you like a return to a feudal society in which you have a few rich barons and a massive servant class, then Bush is clearly your man. |
Did you know those same wealthy 5% pay 50% of the taxes? Its funny how people look at the wealthy and think it was just handed to them. Now of course there are those that inherit wealth, but the majority are the ones that risk everything and invest their own blood, sweat and tears to build a huge business that can provide them that wealth. I am in business with some of the top 2% income earners in the US and I know the people that point the finger and say they got "lucky". Yet I know the amount of sacrifice they endured to get to where theyre at. It is those same business owners that people want to tax more and ridicule that provide the very jobs they work at. If you keep penalizing the producers, they will stop producing and then what are you gonna do? No big business, no job.
It is free-enterprise that makes this country so great. The freedom to enterprise. Show me one wealthy socialist economy out there. There isnt any. Its cause there is no incentive for people to go out and produce wealth on their own. If they do, it all gets taken away. |
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09/26/2006 12:35:54 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
"my" morals? So according to you cheating on your spouse is ok then?
and by the way, yes I think it was going to the pot with him leading. |
Cheating within a marriage should be between the spouses and the third (fourth, fifth) party involved. How do you know that the Clintons don't have an "arrangement"? If they do, it's their business. If they don't, then Hillary should have kicked him to the curb. But it's still between them. The biggest problem i have with that whole deal is that he didn't fess up right at the beginning, and say "yes, i had an affair and i was stupid enough to choose an immature intern to have it with - now shut up because it's between my wife and i". |
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09/26/2006 12:40:38 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
Did you know those same wealthy 5% pay 50% of the taxes? Its funny how people look at the wealthy and think it was just handed to them. Now of course there are those that inherit wealth, but the majority are the ones that risk everything and invest their own blood, sweat and tears to build a huge business that can provide them that wealth. |
Since they control about 80% of the wealth, paying 50% of the taxes means they're not paying their fair share, especially since they ustilize many public services (fire, police, the court system, water, Congress, etc.) to a far greater extent than most individuals.
And those business empires are usually built on the "blood sweat and tears" of minimum-wage workers who have to work more than one full-time job to get above the Federal poverty level.
And they'll probably be paying even less not that the IRS has cut the auditing staff of those who review the "high-rollers" ... |
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09/26/2006 12:48:46 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
Did you know those same wealthy 5% pay 50% of the taxes? Its funny how people look at the wealthy and think it was just handed to them. Now of course there are those that inherit wealth, but the majority are the ones that risk everything and invest their own blood, sweat and tears to build a huge business that can provide them that wealth. |
Since they control about 80% of the wealth, paying 50% of the taxes means they're not paying their fair share, especially since they ustilize many public services (fire, police, the court system, water, Congress, etc.) to a far greater extent than most individuals.
And those business empires are usually built on the "blood sweat and tears" of minimum-wage workers who have to work more than one full-time job to get above the Federal poverty level.
And they'll probably be paying even less not that the IRS has cut the auditing staff of those who review the "high-rollers" ... |
What I think is "funny" is how far working class people will go to defend the 5% who are making fools out of them.
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09/26/2006 12:50:45 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Flash:
There is a difference between accepting someone who is a scoundrel, liar and cheat - and admiring them. Those that admire President Bill Clinton, speak volumes about their values. |
Is it also wrong to admire Franklin D. Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy? How about Oscar Wilde? Please send me a list of whom I am not allowed to admire.
edited to add:
Some people prefer the sex president to the torture president, and some prefer the torture president to the sex president. Yes, I think that does speak volumes about their values. |
You can "admire" anyone you choose. I believe that those you choose to admire, speak volumes about your values.
"Preferences" are another matter, as are decisions to support certain individuals via your vote/alliance/financial contributions etc.
Admiration is a whole different example. This thread was begun on the premise that President Bill Clinton, due to his forceful address of a news interviewer, was skilled and thus deserving of our admiration. I disagree.
I posted a link to an article that addresses each of the claims that President Clinton claimed were factual. It also mentioned his values regarding the game of golf. If one cannot even play the ball where it lies on the golf course and must "enhance" his position, then is it any wonder that the rest of his life is "enhanced" via rewriting of factual history. President Clinton was and likely is a scoundrel, liar and cheat. I do not see much in current events to change my perception. I do not admire him. His values are different than mine. Significantly different than mine. As was evidenced by his recent tiraid, he believes if he forcefully speaks untruths, then that will make them true or at least believable to some. Fortunately, he is not speaking to me.
Message edited by author 2006-09-26 13:22:31.
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09/26/2006 12:52:34 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
Did you know those same wealthy 5% pay 50% of the taxes? Its funny how people look at the wealthy and think it was just handed to them. Now of course there are those that inherit wealth, but the majority are the ones that risk everything and invest their own blood, sweat and tears to build a huge business that can provide them that wealth. |
Since they control about 80% of the wealth, paying 50% of the taxes means they're not paying their fair share, especially since they ustilize many public services (fire, police, the court system, water, Congress, etc.) to a far greater extent than most individuals.
And those business empires are usually built on the "blood sweat and tears" of minimum-wage workers who have to work more than one full-time job to get above the Federal poverty level.
And they'll probably be paying even less not that the IRS has cut the auditing staff of those who review the "high-rollers" ... |
LOL, built on minimum wage workers? Number one, even if someone IS minimum wage, who forced them to take the job? If I'm advertising a job position that pays $2 an hour and someone calls me and accepts the position, is that MY fault? C'mon, it is there own decision to work for that, and if I can get the job done for that, then as a business owner, that is a smart move.
The majority of the wealthy in America are the ones with a greater vision than most. They are the ones that risk the most. They are the ones that invest the most. They are the ones that have the most opposition. And they go through all that to provide a better life for their family and then you want the government to take it all away. Well let me ask you...if you spent several years of your life going through all that to allow your family a wealthy lifestyle and then it all gets taken away cause "it's just not fair to those who aren't wealthy", how would you feel? Would you go and try doing it again, or just throw your hands up and say its just not worth it.
How 'bout this scenario. College. There are those that spend tons of time studying and being there and sacrificing to get straight A's. Then there are those that don't. And they might get D's. Socialism says lets take all the grades and average them together so that its "fair" for everyone. How would you feel if you were that A student? |
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09/26/2006 01:01:33 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
"my" morals? So according to you cheating on your spouse is ok then?
and by the way, yes I think it was going to the pot with him leading. |
where did i say it is ok to cheat? i said a lot of people do it. just because he is in high standards doesnt make him any worse then the next person. maybe you should look up the statistics for adultery and then point fingers at your neighbors, friends, teachers, officers, relatives, hell do you have children? check the babysitter, you dont want to leave your great country in the hands of a cheat but what about your child? the list goes on.
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09/26/2006 01:09:44 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
What I think is "funny" is how far working class people will go to defend the 5% who are making fools out of them. |
Remember that those 5% own almost all the TV and radio stations, newspapers, magazines, etc. |
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09/26/2006 01:14:22 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by posthumous:
What I think is "funny" is how far working class people will go to defend the 5% who are making fools out of them. |
Remember that those 5% own almost all the TV and radio stations, newspapers, magazines, etc. |
point is? |
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09/26/2006 01:36:48 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If you like a return to a feudal society in which you have a few rich barons and a massive servant class, then Bush is clearly your man. |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
Did you know those same wealthy 5% pay 50% of the taxes? |
Did you know those same wealthy 5 percent own between 60 and 70 percent of all wealth in the United States? And I'm quoting figures from 2001. I'm sure that by now Bush has accomplished one of the most important goals of his presidency, namely to concentrate even more wealth in the hands of the already wealthiest households in this country.
See this article, in particular Figure 1.
Edit to say: Sorry, my point was made previously. :)
Message edited by author 2006-09-26 13:44:13. |
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09/26/2006 01:50:42 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If you like a return to a feudal society in which you have a few rich barons and a massive servant class, then Bush is clearly your man. |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
Did you know those same wealthy 5% pay 50% of the taxes? |
Did you know those same wealthy 5 percent own between 60 and 70 percent of all wealth in the United States? And I'm quoting figures from 2001. I'm sure that by now Bush has accomplished one of the most important goals of his presidency, namely to concentrate even more wealth in the hands of the already wealthiest households in this country.
See this article, in particular Figure 1.
Edit to say: Sorry, my point was made previously. :) |
Still my question has not been answered. Is it fair to penalize and take away from those that are willing to risk and sacrifice more to achieve more?
What the heck is wrong with being rewarded for what you earn? |
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09/26/2006 02:06:19 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
Still my question has not been answered. Is it fair to penalize and take away from those that are willing to risk and sacrifice more to achieve more?
What the heck is wrong with being rewarded for what you earn? |
Hmmm... I thought the article I referenced, as well as GeneralE's remarks, made it clear that, in fact, the rich are NOT being penalized; on the contrary, they are being rewarded disproportionately in terms of the share of taxes they pay vis-a-vis the share of wealth they own.
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09/26/2006 02:10:27 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
What I think is "funny" is how far working class people will go to defend the 5% who are making fools out of them. |
Amen to that, brother.
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09/26/2006 02:11:04 PM · #44 |
yup, time to pull up a chair and some 
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09/26/2006 02:16:20 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by posthumous:
What I think is "funny" is how far working class people will go to defend the 5% who are making fools out of them. |
Remember that those 5% own almost all the TV and radio stations, newspapers, magazines, etc. |
point is? |
I take it you are completely unaware of the role of propaganda and information control on society and what people believe ... I think perhaps you should consider suing your school district for failing to provide you with the rudiments of an education in history and current affairs, and participate in one of the great wealth-building strategies of the modern American age.
Message edited by author 2006-09-26 14:16:46. |
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09/26/2006 02:16:22 PM · #46 |
This should clear up the tax argument:
//www.factcheck.org/article280.html
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09/26/2006 02:35:06 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by posthumous:
What I think is "funny" is how far working class people will go to defend the 5% who are making fools out of them. |
Remember that those 5% own almost all the TV and radio stations, newspapers, magazines, etc. |
point is? |
I take it you are completely unaware of the role of propaganda and information control on society and what people believe ... I think perhaps you should consider suing your school district for failing to provide you with the rudiments of an education in history and current affairs, and participate in one of the great wealth-building strategies of the modern American age. |
as a matter of fact, I am completely aware of propaganda and information control. And I know that most media is owned by left wing liberals and I don't agree with or believe hardly anything on them. |
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09/26/2006 02:35:43 PM · #48 |
thank you for that, Daryl. |
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09/26/2006 02:51:11 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Nikonian Ninja:
as a matter of fact, I am completely aware of propaganda and information control. And I know that most media is owned by left wing liberals and I don't agree with or believe hardly anything on them. |
Ah, I see the propaganda has been delivered effectively! Reality check: the media are owned by huge corporations, not left wing liberals.
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09/26/2006 02:54:02 PM · #50 |
| i know the amount of wrong information that is published in order to line up with their agendas. Including info about Iraq and the rest of the war, along with plenty other things. |
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