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09/06/2006 01:02:25 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by Vapor63:
I believe that a woman's best defense is to carry a firearm. |
If we're talking about police officers and robbers that can't shoot someone when they try to, what good is someone with limited or no training going to do with a gun in a potentially deadly situation.
Hypothetical situation:
Let's say some lady is walking down the street late at night and no one is around. Let's say some guy walks up and pulls out a gun (or a knife) and says give me your money. She pulls out her gun...he's either shooting her or stabbing her at this point...and now she's dead.
Leave the guns to the professionals. The smart thing to do when someone asks for your wallet is to just give them your wallet. Maybe throw it and run the opposite direction, whatever you have to do to get away with your life. I'm guessing that most of the time, pulling out a gun isn't the answer. |
That's why I advocate proper training along with the firearm. As I requested, please don't argue politics in this thread. Such discussion can get nasty and lead nowhere. How do you define professional? You're average police officer is not very well trained at firearm handling and accuracy, sadly enough. If you would like to further this discussion, please either e-mail me for continuation or begin a new thread. |
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09/06/2006 03:29:24 AM · #27 |
Actually I'm not sure that it does belong in a different thread. Deapee has an extremely valid point. If you stop and pull out a gun, instead of running away, then the "assailant" has opportunity and a suddenly increased need to use whatever weapon he has against you.
Unless you're some kind of clint-eastwood style quick draw sharpshooter, I'd reckon on running being the better option. By all means, then, still carry the gun. If you get shot whilst running away, you can then pull it out and use it properly, in self-defence, rather than in some kind of close-quarters deathmatch shootout.
Point is, in general, I wouldn't recommend "drawing a gun" as a safety tip.
I have to say though that I found the list of possible events that could happen to people to be a bit much - it read like a load of scenes from a Scream movie.
The best advice that I would give to anyone is to keep your wits about you all the time. Recognise the sort of potential situations that you could be putting yourself in to and be prepared to act suitably if you need to.
Lastly, I'm really not sure about the lift / stairs argument. A lift is a confined, sealed environment. I'd personally rather take my chances on the stairs with a dodgy looking person than I would get into a lift with one. (Though I'd probably just avoid either circumstance) |
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09/06/2006 04:47:59 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by Vapor63:
Please don't argue politics with me in this thread, but I believe that a woman's best defense is to carry a firearm. Most states now allow a concealed carry permit which lets you carry a gun in most any public area in your purse or elsewhere. |
I don't know about other countries, but here in Ireland you're not even allowed to own a firearm to keep in your house. The only people allowed to own guns are farmers (shotguns) and police. And they are very strictly controlled. Regular inspections to make sure you're storing it in a gun safe etc.
In fact, crossbows and air pistols/rifles are also illegal. One of the few weapons you're allowed to own is a bow. How good are they at close range? :) |
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09/06/2006 05:25:01 AM · #29 |
| Not wishing to devalue the rest of the advice in that original post, but the last tale about the crying baby was debunked a long time ago on Snopes. |
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09/06/2006 05:46:52 AM · #30 |
From this thread I remembered reading about a No Contact jacket. It was the dubbed the coolest invention of 2003.
It has the capacity of producing 80 000 volt electrical pulse through the jacket material keeping wearer insulated but stunning the attacker and giving the victim time to run away.
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09/06/2006 05:48:14 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:
From this thread I remembered reading about a No Contact jacket. It was the dubbed the coolest invention of 2003.
It has the capacity of producing 80 000 volt electrical pulse through the jacket material keeping wearer insulated but stunning the attacker and giving the victim time to run away. |
Is it turned ON at all times, or user selectable? |
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09/06/2006 05:58:54 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:
From this thread I remembered reading about a No Contact jacket. It was the dubbed the coolest invention of 2003.
It has the capacity of producing 80 000 volt electrical pulse through the jacket material keeping wearer insulated but stunning the attacker and giving the victim time to run away. |
Is it turned ON at all times, or user selectable? |
I think there's a trigger of some sort that you carry in your hands..
Edit::Found the site
Message edited by author 2006-09-06 06:15:01. |
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09/06/2006 06:03:59 AM · #33 |
Politics have not been mentioned -- just valid reasons why a gun is not a valid 'self-defense' tactic.
The key word there is 'self-defense'. Paranoia aside, if a person (any gender) pulls a gun on someone without seeing a weapon they have committed a crime, not the person they pulled it on. Add the advice to not pull it out unless you intend to use it to kill someone (it is lethal force after all), and the crime committed escalates.
If a weapon is in use, pulling a gun (or most any weapon for that matter) will get you killed. The other person already has theirs ready, you don't. Making a move that puts the assailant on the defensive will provide the stimulas for them to respond by using their weapon -- in all likelihood regardless of if they intended to use it or not. A gun (or any weapon) is of no pratical use when you start out on the defensive.
If a weapon is in use and you get away, pulling your weapon and turning around puts you back in the position of being the one committing the crime. Unless they have actively pursued, in which case the paragraph above still applies.
Unless the gun is worn visibly as a deterant (best still be ready and willing to use it), carrying at gun for 'self-defense' is asking for trouble. All it will provide is a false sense of security that backfires when needed most.
Oh, and as for most of the rest of the above, betting your personal safety on the assumption an assailant will be incompetant is moronic.
The only reliable form of self-defense is to think ahead, be aware of your surroundings, keep your wits about you (no paranoia allowed) and don't put yourself in situations that are not in your best interst.
David
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09/06/2006 07:49:10 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Hypothetical situation:
Let's say some lady is walking down the street late at night and no one is around. Let's say some guy walks up and pulls out a gun (or a knife) and says give me your money. She pulls out her gun...he's either shooting her or stabbing her at this point...and now she's dead.
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Simple solution, throw your wallet or purse, back off and then shoot the perp while he's going after it. :-)
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09/06/2006 08:09:59 AM · #35 |
my niece and i got chased behind a mall one night when we were about 10. we went outside the mall and then got locked out on the backside so as we were walking on the side I thought we were being followed so we ran and he started to run. My niece was pissing me off because she couldnt keep up, and there was nobody in sight to help us. we finally made it to the front of the mall and as soon as we opened the door, there was my sister with her 2 small kids. The guy actually followed us inside and we were trying to tell my sister and her husband what happened but they didnt want to hear it. They were too busy yelling at the other two kids and then yelling at us for running off.
then when i was in high school my ex-boyfriend chased me one night. he had been drinking liquor and i had been around him before and he acted fine, but he grabbed me by my hair and told me to do certain things to him and i said no. That pissed him off and he raised the bottle to hit me with it, so i pushed him down and ran. OMG I ran so fast. I just remember turning around and seeing the anger in his face, but thank god I made it home. I told my family but I never called the cops because legally he didnt do anything. I do know that if someone ever attacks me I will fight to no end and collect as much evidence as possible. I took karate and i believe i could kill someone in self defense if i had to.
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09/06/2006 08:33:27 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by David.C:
The only reliable form of self-defense is to think ahead, be aware of your surroundings, keep your wits about you (no paranoia allowed) and don't put yourself in situations that are not in your best interst.
David |
While I find your assumption that carrying a firearm will "work against you" unfounded and contrary to statistical likeliness, I do agree with your last statement. Thinking ahead, avoiding dangerous scenarios, and trying to diffuse a situations is in many times the best prevention. However, with proper training, a woman can easily draw a firearm from concealment under two seconds; more importantly, it can be done easily and while a perpitrator is distracted.
I know for a fact that man women have successfully defended themselves using firearms combined with proper training. Take for example this instance, in which a student of a firearms safety instructor whom I know from another forum shot a would-be rapist five times as he prepared to rape her. I have no mercy for any male who believes he has a right to force himself onto a woman, and I believe the more women who show themselves capable of defending themselves, the less victimized they will become.
If you visit the link I provided, A human right, you'll find many answers to your very questions and concerns as well as arguments. Oleg Volk, the owner of the site and host, is also a photographer; and a good one at that.
As for carrying a weapon openly as concealment: there are those who argue for that. But many women would feel uncomfortable; worse, it may attract bad attention, and is more of a "show off" type of thing than defense at that point. People in the firearms community debate that very issue on a daily basis.
All of these absolutes many folks have brought up- "The gun will be turned against her" etc. are simply unsubstantiated.
I'll be returning when I have more time to provide some interesting links to help answer any more skepticism. It is a muddy concept to grasp and as someone who's "been there", I would love to help alleviate the concerns of those who dislike the idea of carrying a firearm.
And yes, the US is one of the few places where concealed carry permits exist. Such inherent rights do not exist in the UK and many other countries worldwide.
I apologize that I do not have the time at this moment to provide you with some fantastic literature on the issue, but as soon as I get more time I'll be glad to respond to any other concerns.
You are right,  David.C- perhaps I am jumping the gun in trying to prevent a political debate. I have had bad experiences in facing political discussions on other forums which got downright nasty, and I'd like to keep things civil. |
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09/06/2006 08:42:59 AM · #37 |
I still stand behind my point of view. You're better off leaving the situation than trying to be a quick draw with a handgun.
If nothing else, if you blow someone's head off who was carrying nothing, or a fake weapon, it could be you that spends the rest of their life locked up.
You guys and girls in the US may have a right to carry a weapon, but I'm far from convinced that the best thing to do in a hostile situation would be to actually draw it.
Message edited by author 2006-09-06 08:43:15. |
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09/06/2006 09:48:01 AM · #38 |
It's always best to avoid walking anywhere by yourself, but inevitably for most women it will happen at some point. Remember, deterence is much better than defense, and the best confrontation is one that doesn't happen. ALWAYS walk at a steady pace with your head up and confident-looking (even if you're not). Look at least 100 feet ahead of you for incredulous places (dark alleys, closed storefronts, parked vans, etc) where somebody could be laying in wait, and go around those places. Don't turn your head too much to look, this shows vulnerability and weakness. Instead, look out of the corner of your eyes or use your peripheral vision, keeping a dauntless appearance.
Granted, all people (no matter how big or strong they look) are possible victims to certain predators, especially if they're high, but some predators will move on to somebody looking more vulnerable. This is especially true to "rookie" predators, and a lot of times those "rookies", once in a confrontation, will take more drastic measures out of pure panic/adrenaline rush to keep from getting caught. |
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09/06/2006 10:01:47 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Vapor63:
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by Vapor63:
I believe that a woman's best defense is to carry a firearm. |
If we're talking about police officers and robbers that can't shoot someone when they try to, what good is someone with limited or no training going to do with a gun in a potentially deadly situation.
Hypothetical situation:
Let's say some lady is walking down the street late at night and no one is around. Let's say some guy walks up and pulls out a gun (or a knife) and says give me your money. She pulls out her gun...he's either shooting her or stabbing her at this point...and now she's dead.
Leave the guns to the professionals. The smart thing to do when someone asks for your wallet is to just give them your wallet. Maybe throw it and run the opposite direction, whatever you have to do to get away with your life. I'm guessing that most of the time, pulling out a gun isn't the answer. |
That's why I advocate proper training along with the firearm. As I requested, please don't argue politics in this thread. Such discussion can get nasty and lead nowhere. How do you define professional? You're average police officer is not very well trained at firearm handling and accuracy, sadly enough. If you would like to further this discussion, please either e-mail me for continuation or begin a new thread. |
I'm not talking politics. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation and proper handgun training.
If you would consider most police officers as "not very well trained at firearm handling and accuracy," then I'd wonder how you would classify the training of the majority of people with their handgun permit.
I only speak from personal experience here as one of my best friends has been a police officer for over 10 years, and to be honest his training is probably more than most people would assume it to be. Maybe our opinions differ regarding what 'professional training' is, but I would definately consider him and his training to be professional.
The thing that you have to remember is that most civillians shoot in a range at a stationary target. These police officers are moving through buildings designed for this, shooting at different size, sometimes moving, targets while there are other distractions going on at the same time.
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In either event, to imply that the average person's handgun training is better than a police officer's training seems a bit off to me. To imply that a normal person could more accurately fire a handgun in a stressful, life and death situation than a trained police officer seems a bit off to me as well.
Anyway, I stick with my original feeling. Leave the guns to professionals. If you pull one out, you had better know how to use it and know how to use it well, or your life is now in more danger than before you pulled it out in most circumstances.
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09/06/2006 12:27:24 PM · #40 |
In my copious spare time (read: not my dayjob) I teach a Japanese martial art. Because I don't make too big a secret of this, I am occasionally asked to give seminars, often on non-traditional topics such as "women's self-defense". In those courses, I have a few hours (at most one day) to give the attendees some practical knowledge that they can use to help them survive an encounter.
Because the time is so limited, I tend to focus on those things which will offer the biggest "bang for the buck". In this, the things I teach and many of the items in the list share a common element -- AWARENESS of one's surroundings, the risks, hidden threats, and how not to be put in the position of a victim in the first place.
The mechanics of a male-vs-female encounter are such that the female is often at a disadvantage, due to size, strength, and (most importantly) weight differences. Trained practitioners (of either gender) can find themselves rapidly running out of options when an opponent of significantly greater mass grabs onto them and pulls them down, and quite frankly, the odds of my being able to teach techniques that will work "in 100% of the situations 100% of the time" in one 4 or 8 hour session are virtually nil. The "list of advice" seems to recognize this, and aside from the "use your elbows" item (advice so vague as to be almost useless without proper training), the overwhelming majority focus the things that a potential victim CAN control -- the situation before it starts, and the mental outlook during. By learning what "seemingly harmless" situations might pose a threat, exercising avoidance and escape rather than compliance, and (most importantly) keeping one's eyes/ears/wits open and about them, a student can greatly increase their chances of survival manyfold.
Fighting back (via counters, strikes to sensitive areas, auditory means, nonlethal tools such as pepper spray or stun devices, or lethal means such as firearms or knives) is another option, but one which requires proper training to employ such that it is A) most effective, B) is less likely to result in a worse situation for you and C) is less likely to result in harm to uninvolved parties. Some of these can be learned quickly, and can be combined with the situational awareness/avoidance mentioned above -- these are the sorts of things I might highlight in a short seminar. Others can take much longer to acquire, and while I'd mention them as options, I wouldn't advocate the students going out and trying it without first obtaining some sort of formal training. To sum, though, there simply is no panacea, no "magic bullet" -- if there were, everyone would carry/use it, and no one would ever be a victim again. As that's not the case, we should probably leave aside the debate on the effectiveness/practicality of one particular remediation, and instead encourage awareness and use of those tools with each unique person has become comfortable -- whatever those might be.
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09/06/2006 12:37:47 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by alucard:
As that's not the case, we should probably leave aside the debate on the effectiveness/practicality of one particular remediation, and instead encourage awareness and use of those tools with each unique person has become comfortable -- whatever those might be. |
Agreed.
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09/06/2006 12:40:23 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Telehubbie:
ALWAYS walk at a steady pace with your head up and confident-looking (even if you're not). Look at least 100 feet ahead of you for incredulous places (dark alleys, closed storefronts, parked vans, etc) where somebody could be laying in wait, and go around those places. |
I've had this happen so many times especially if I'm stepping out of the bank or from someplace where I've shopped something expensive that someone lurking around in the dark is so obviously preying on me. The best defense is to look confident and look everyone in the eye. The second the person realizes that you've noticed them they ususally slink away into the shadows.
Message edited by author 2006-09-06 12:41:25. |
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09/06/2006 12:41:17 PM · #43 |
not sure if this has been mentioned yet..because i havent read the entire thread... but I tell all my friends.. male and female to read the book: The Gift of FEAR
Its powerful and thought provoking.. and reminds us to follow those little tingles in our guts.. because on some level we already know when something or someone is just not quite right.
Wont preach about it.. but this book is a gift. |
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09/06/2006 01:01:33 PM · #44 |
Shecoya, Shecoya
I never really knew that she could dance like this
She makes a man want to speak Spanish
Como se llama, bonita, mi casa, su casa
Shecoya, Shecoya
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09/06/2006 01:07:08 PM · #45 |
My 0.02 about all this is the post sounds good, but is bubkus written by someone who means well.
First, as far as fighting, I highly doubt a typical woman is going to fend off an assailant intent on his target. We've seen too many hollywood movies where it's "one-punch-and-the-bad-guy-is-out". I would advocate only fighting as much as necessary to disengage yourself from him and then run. He doesn't have his hand on you, run before he does.
I agree with all the posts that say drawing a weapon is stupid if he has one.
Personally I feel the largest harm of posts like this is the psychological framework it puts women in who "live in fear". Although I live in a "nice neighborhood" I would not be afraid to have my 5'0" wife running around at night. The number of predetory rapists is very low in reality and you just are not likely to meet one in a typical place where typical suburbanites go. It's possible you might run into someone looking for money, but then you just give it to them and run. They aren't looking to hurt you if they can help it, they just want your money.
I know my attitude sounds a little naive, but I strongly feel the small amount of constant psychological damage done outweights the low risk of a larger amount of physical harm. You can disagree with me if you want.
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09/06/2006 01:36:20 PM · #46 |
Self defense in most states allows the use of lethal force ONLY if there is no "reasonable retreat" i.e. the assailant has you cornered with no escape. So, if you are carrying a gun and someone demands you wallet on the street and you draw your weapon and kill him without trying to run away, you are now the criminal.
That said, if you are going to carry a firearm, practice regularly, know how to use it in close or you will find yourself on the wrong end of it. If you draw your weapon, do so with the intent to kill, you can't hesitate. Shoot and shoot to kill, aim for the center body mass. Head shots are nice in the movies, but the body is bigger and a solid hit is more likely to be lethal. |
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09/06/2006 01:41:24 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Vapor63:
That's why I advocate proper training along with the firearm. As I requested, please don't argue politics in this thread. Such discussion can get nasty and lead nowhere. How do you define professional? You're average police officer is not very well trained at firearm handling and accuracy, sadly enough. If you would like to further this discussion, please either e-mail me for continuation or begin a new thread. |
I don't think most civilians has the time to get "proper" training. When I was in the army we spent several weeks just to learn the basics of riflemanship(which is alot easier then a gun). Most of the days we spent 12h+ on the fireing range just lifting(not aiming) and fireing our weapon at differnt distances, it took a couple of months before anyone could put two shots in the centre of a target in under 2s.
And that was just the basics, I've spent a couple of years training with differnt weapons, glock 17, mauser 98, FN FNC, HK G3, FN MAG(m240), M249 SAW, Bofors Carl Gustav Grg m48 / m86, Bofors AT-4. And I'm not confident that I could draw and fire any of theese weapons in under 2s and hit something(maybe the gpmg's or the fnc if carried on my chest but certainly not the glock).
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09/06/2006 02:20:54 PM · #48 |
Suggesting that we all carry a gun isn't really a solution regardless of the training aspect.
Sure the US Constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms, however, some common sense should be used. |
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09/06/2006 04:15:59 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Suggesting that we all carry a gun isn't really a solution regardless of the training aspect.
Sure the US Constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms, however, some common sense should be used. |
Agreed, your best option is to get away, kicking, fighting, screaming and yelling if necessary. That goes for men and women, armed and unarmed.
For those who DO choose to carry a firearm, they should be well trained and prepared to use it to kill. It's my opinion that most people who carry weapons are neither and as a consequence are a danger to those around them.
By training, I don't mean just basic firearms safety and shooting through a box of ammo at the range while the instructor holds your hand, or shooting at cans in the backyard. I mean practice shooting in close quarters, in awkward positions and under stress. |
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09/06/2006 05:20:11 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Suggesting that we all carry a gun isn't really a solution regardless of the training aspect.
Sure the US Constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms, however, some common sense should be used. |
I positively agree that carrying a handgun is not the correct option for everyone (or even most people). I apologize for having given that impression.
The Gift of Fear, as mentioned earlier, is a fantastic book which allows you to better understand your 'gut instinct' and use it to your advantage. Our best weapon lies between our ears. |
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