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08/17/2006 08:01:19 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
But if the standard is wrong, let's change the standard. If a competant mechanic can do a task in two hours, let's not set the standard at 3 so we can hire less competant mechanics to do the job and still come out okay, okay? It creates conflicting incentives to do that. And pushes up the price, which tends to drive business elsewhere. |
Parts & Labor estimating guides have been written to be a reference, based on what it should normally take an average technician to accomplish the task. Those profficient in doing that task can reap the rewards of excelling in their field and earning a good living at it. As an example, there are tasks I get payed very well for, other not. At times I get paid for what I know and knowing how to actually fix things, rather than just changing parts. Fees charged include many things to cover the task, including road testing to confirm a problem, technical information look-ups, testing and repairs, and follow-up road testing, not just the actual hands-on nuts & bolts turning.
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
And if you are going to set a standard price based on an inflated labor standard, maybe you shouldn't break out labor and parts separately. Just a flat $450 for 30,000 mile service ... whether it takes 3 hours or 6. Take it or leave it. Not necessarily recommending this, but it might influence the trust thing. Just a thought. |
A detailed listing of what was done, why it was done and itemizing any and all materials and/or parts has to be in effect. Many States do not allow a percentage added onto a bill for misc supplies, and each and every part has to be listed. A written estimate has to be provided, with an estimate of parts (not detailed) and an estimate of labor. If the job requires additional parts or labor, it HAS TO be authorized by the customer PRIOR to being done, and documented as to who called who, when, for what and noted on the final invoice. We cannot charge one cent over the estimate (excluding sales tax on parts) unless we had authorization to do so.
Keep in mind that 30/60/90K services vary a lot. There are different maintenance schedules too, depending on normal or severe service. It is not a one-size-fits-all industry anymore. It has become very complex and often expensive to maintain a newer vehicle, properly. |
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08/17/2006 08:03:25 PM · #77 |
So break it down for me Brad (or Matt). What am I really getting here. I don't really want to be penny-wise and dollar foolish.
Acutally being replaced:
Engine oil
Engine oil filter
Replace engine coolant
Air cleaner element
Spark plugs
Brake fluid
Rotate tires
So, a few questions. Is the Air cleaner element the same as an air filter? I think I'd let a pro change the brake fluid and rotate the tires. I'd have to look to see how hard plugs are to change on a Subaru Outback.
Being inspected:
Drive belt(s)
inspect cooling system, hoses and connections
Fuel system, lines and connections
Transmission/Differential (Front & Rear) lubricants (Gear oil)
Automatic transmission fluid
Disc brake pads and discs/Front and rear axle boots and axle shaft joint portions
Brake linings and drums (including parking brake linings and drums)
Inspect brake lines and check operation of parking and service brake system
Clutch system
Steering and suspension system
Valve clearance
But is visual inspection more than just looking for oil leaks or signs of wear?
What's the straight scoop?
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08/17/2006 08:07:20 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I have a hybrid -- no way am I gonna even think about messing around with the power plant on that. I have a dealer six blocks from my house, and part of what might seem like "excessive" charges actually pay off in convenience -- so far, they've had the work done on-time, and they have a shuttle so I can be elsewhere while they work on it.
I have a 60,000 mile service coming in a few months, and I expect it will cost a few hundred bucks ... but the car will be running. |
Funny you should say that GeneralE.
I took my Hybrid in today (2003 Prius, just a couple of years newer than yours but I use it hard) for it's 60,000 service. Yep, it cost a few bucks, but that darn car has been almost trouble-free for the three years I've had it and it was worth every dime to know it'll stay that way.
I'm across the Bay from you and take it to the Toyota people on Geary Blvd, in San Francisco.
Oh, yes, the gas mileage before I took it in was reading 49.6 mpg city & country average.
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08/17/2006 08:09:17 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So wait, you are telling me that Fram or Purolator or whatever filters aren't necessarily up to snuff?
I just called Jiffy-Lube and supposedly it's $25 to change the oil in my Toyota. That's fairly reasonable if I can only do it for $15. But I doubt the oil or filter are any different than I'd get at a car parts store... |
Nope actually I have no idea what Jiffy Lube uses, I know what I use and other Shops that understand Oil and Oil Filters. Factory OEM, its not an oil change or a tune up in todays world its maintance interval.
Heres some good reading from a Friend of mine that all he does is teach/train/research about the proper automotive fluids:
Link
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 20:13:24. |
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08/17/2006 08:22:42 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So, a few questions. Is the Air cleaner element the same as an air filter? I think I'd let a pro change the brake fluid and rotate the tires. I'd have to look to see how hard plugs are to change on a Subaru Outback.
But is visual inspection more than just looking for oil leaks or signs of wear?
What's the straight scoop? |
Yes the air cleaner is the filter, Now again, not all air filters are the same go with the factory One(Another tid bit on air filters those aftermarket mesh style K&N, Etc actually decrease the performance of vehicle, and also allow alot more unfiltered air in) Same with the spark plugs OEM. A visual inspection is checking over to make sure the parts are working, wearing ok, a check over. |
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08/17/2006 08:39:51 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So break it down for me Brad (or Matt). What am I really getting here. I don't really want to be penny-wise and dollar foolish.
Acutally being replaced:
Engine oil & oil filter 0.14 Hrs typical for LOF service
Replace engine coolant Drain & fill 0.8 hrs average - air pockets can be a booger)
Air cleaner element Nominal if any labor
Spark plugs 1.0 hrs on a 2.5L, 2.4Hrs on a 3.0L)
Brake fluid 0.5 hrs while doing a service is fair
Rotate tires Included with service, balance extra
So, a few questions. Is the Air cleaner element the same as an air filter? YesI think I'd let a pro change the brake fluid and rotate the tires. I'd have to look to see how hard plugs are to change on a Subaru Outback.
Being inspected:
(Typically what's below here is all part of a bumper to bumper mechanical & saftey inspection, and generally runs about an hour of labor)
Drive belt(s) visual inspection, check tension
inspect cooling system, hoses and connections visual
Fuel system, lines and connections visual
Transmission/Differential (Front & Rear) lubricants (Gear oil) check & fill as needed
Automatic transmission fluid check and fill as needed
Disc brake pads and discs/Front and rear axle boots and axle shaft joint portions removal of wheels, calipers, lube slides, measure discs for thickness and run-out (warp), reinstall, hand-torque wheels, road test
Brake linings and drums (including parking brake linings and drums) Part of brake inspection above
Inspect brake lines and check operation of parking and service brake system Part of brake inspection above
Clutch system Visual inspection of hydraulics system and free play
Steering and suspension system visual and check frame suspension fasteners. retorque as necessary
Valve clearance Normally an audible inspection
But is visual inspection more than just looking for oil leaks or signs of wear?
Yes & No. A trained eye can spot things like rust marks near fasteners, indictating something is working loose. Checking safety an dmechanical conditions overall is about a 15-45 minute process
What's the straight scoop? |
Hope that helps
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 20:43:38. |
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08/17/2006 08:49:51 PM · #82 |
Brad speaking of hours of education/training and money spent, wheres our PHD's? :) And MattO too!
Edit: Nice post above, straight to the details
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 20:51:15. |
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08/17/2006 09:15:01 PM · #83 |
I know that i came in late but I do all the service on my cars, i just spent 24 straight hours replacing the water pump and all the belts and hoses on the porsche. saved a good bit of money doing it myself too.
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 21:15:23. |
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08/17/2006 09:17:35 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I once had a 240D Mercedes (loved that car) and I did an analysis on the resale value as projected over the following few years vs the cost of maintenance, and I decided to run that sucker into the ground. Once I made that decision, I did NO maintenance other than lube/oil change and the danged thing kept running fine for FOUR MORE YEARS. And this was at about 50k miles per year... When I got my BMW 328is I sold the 240D for $1,200. Book was $1,600 at the time. My savings over "recommended maintenance" was very substantial. But then, that was a diesel...
R. |
Interesting analysis...er, point of view.
Some things I wonder about too - like transmission fluid changes. If you do them every 30 or 45k then you get 150k on trans, if you don't do them you get 130k on the trans (it's hilly here and hard on transmissions). it's generally not worth doing the trans services, or changing diff fluid (unless you go muddin and get em wet inside)
brake fluid - sure, the system will last practically forever if you change the fluid every 2 years. But then how long will you keep the car? If you never change the fluid you'll get 10 years service with no ill effects, often much longer. So no financial incentive to change it IMO.
Radiator fluid needs changed periodically, and it's a PITA so I ignore it. At $250 for a rad every 10 years (my cost anyway) it's barely worth it to change the fluid every 2-3 years. Perhaps the water pump would last longer if it was changed...this I do get to at some point.
Cars these days are quickly approaching refrigerators in their reliabilty and maintenance requirements (needs not recomendations). God love ya if you can afford to buy new and use a dealer for service. I have other options and choose to use them.
BTW, has it been mentioned how most mechanics get paid? By the hour billed. So a the 'average' labor time is that, and often putting multiple jobs together pays better as the time includes getting the car on the lift, the tools out and put away, etc. I have issues with a brake job and then extra charge for rotating tires - c'mon, the tires are already off the car! |
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08/17/2006 09:21:46 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by themoe89:
I know that i came in late but I do all the service on my cars, i just spent 24 straight hours replacing the water pump and all the belts and hoses on the porsche. saved a good bit of money doing it myself too. |
24 hours labor? Glad i don't own a Porsche! LOL What's your time worth? if you're worth $20/ hour at your job, then that 'cost' you $480, the money you could have made working for your boss instead of your car. Now if the labor charge would have exceeded $480, you're ahead to do it yourself. Just another way of looking at it.
I often do jobs to avoid the hassle - i can change brakes in less time that it takes to drive to a shop and drive back, let alone sit there and wait for the work to be done. Same for tire rotation, oil changes, etc, and since i do the work I am constantly checking for issues (hoses, belts, etc, etc) |
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08/17/2006 09:23:55 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Brad speaking of hours of education/training and money spent, wheres our PHD's? :) And MattO too!
Edit: Nice post above, straight to the details |
BMW was advertising for technicians here a year or two ago promising training and a starting wage of $75,000 a year. Not bad money IMO. But a good dealership mechanic can make $50k+ a year - regular hours, no OT, no traveling. You do have to buy your own tools though. |
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08/17/2006 09:30:26 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by MQuinn:
I like the saying I have posted on the wall at my shop: |
When I took a printing class, they had a sample "shop rates" sign too (amounts approximate) ...
Shop Rates:
Standard Labor: $25/hour
If Customer Watches: $50/hr
If Customer Offers Advice: $100/hour
If Customer Helps: $200/hour |
I liked the sign at a shop I worked at:
Fast, Cheap, Done Right - Pick any 2.
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08/17/2006 09:36:04 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Interesting analysis...er, point of view.
Some things I wonder about too - like transmission fluid changes. If you do them every 30 or 45k then you get 150k on trans, if you don't do them you get 130k on the trans (it's hilly here and hard on transmissions). it's generally not worth doing the trans services, or changing diff fluid (unless you go muddin and get em wet inside) |
Actually Transmission fluid does break down, and lubricates the clutch plates inside, that require the additives package to keep them supple and wearing accordingly. Same with Differantal fluid, its better to change it when recommended than to cross your fingers.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
brake fluid - sure, the system will last practically forever if you change the fluid every 2 years. But then how long will you keep the car? If you never change the fluid you'll get 10 years service with no ill effects, often much longer. So no financial incentive to change it IMO. |
Brake fluid is hydroscopic, meaning it can take on water. I would error on the side of safety on that rusting out calipers, lines from the inside all receiving pressures of over 1300psi, not to mention the ABS system. Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Radiator fluid needs changed periodically, and it's a PITA so I ignore it. At $250 for a rad every 10 years (my cost anyway) it's barely worth it to change the fluid every 2-3 years. Perhaps the water pump would last longer if it was changed...this I do get to at some point. |
A radiator is one thing depends on the car how much, how about the Engine head gaskets, engine, and the whole cooling system. Rarely is it easy to change Heater core now adays, yet see them go out alot.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Cars these days are quickly approaching refrigerators in their reliabilty and maintenance requirements (needs not recomendations). God love ya if you can afford to buy new and use a dealer for service. I have other options and choose to use them. |
I would say find a good shop that values staying up to date, and is Honest. Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
BTW, has it been mentioned how most mechanics get paid? By the hour billed. So a the 'average' labor time is that, and often putting multiple jobs together pays better as the time includes getting the car on the lift, the tools out and put away, etc. I have issues with a brake job and then extra charge for rotating tires - c'mon, the tires are already off the car! |
I don't charge that, but I do charge for the balance of the tires we do with every rotation. But yes we do charge for the time it takes, I don't see a problem with that... |
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08/17/2006 09:40:22 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
I liked the sign at a shop I worked at:
Fast, Cheap, Done Right - Pick any 2. |
Excellent analysis! |
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08/17/2006 09:50:33 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Interesting analysis...er, point of view.
Some things I wonder about too - like transmission fluid changes. If you do them every 30 or 45k then you get 150k on trans, if you don't do them you get 130k on the trans (it's hilly here and hard on transmissions). it's generally not worth doing the trans services, or changing diff fluid (unless you go muddin and get em wet inside) |
Many A/Transmissions can go 250,000 miles with regular service. Replacements can be up as high as $6,000 (Cadillac FWD)
Fluid & filter changes are not expensive to do every 30K miles and can double the life of a non-serviced unit. No rocket science here.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Brake fluid - sure, the system will last practically forever if you change the fluid every 2 years. But then how long will you keep the car? If you never change the fluid you'll get 10 years service with no ill effects, often much longer. So no financial incentive to change it IMO. |
With people driving vehicles over 200K miles, it is an inexpensive way to maintain the hydraulic system. A master cylinder replacement can run $400, and try pricing out Anti-Lock brake hydraulic components replacement - Ouch!They can could be prevented with flushing the system every 2 yrs/30K miles.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Radiator fluid needs changed periodically, and it's a PITA so I ignore it. At $250 for a rad every 10 years (my cost anyway) it's barely worth it to change the fluid every 2-3 years. Perhaps the water pump would last longer if it was changed...this I do get to at some point. |
There is a lot more than just the radiator or water pump involved. Head gaskets fail also due to neglect. Electrolysis develops over time and eats a modern engine from the inside out. Drain & fill every 2 yrs/30K miles - Do NOT flush with city water! In fact, no city water should ever be introduced into to any part of a modern vehicle.
Fuel filters, when not installed inside the fuel tank NEED to be replaced every 2 yrs/30k miles. The added wear on a fuel pump due to restrictions in the filter can cause an in-tank pumnp to fail in under 60K miles, at the tune of $600 average.
Cleaning the fuel injectors and intake system again every 2 yrs/30 k miles. Go a long way to keeping an engine running optimal, efficient and cleaner. Reduces wear on the oil from washed down carbon due to fuel not being burned completely, cylinder walls from being scored due to unburnt fuel washing the oil film away, and catalytic converters from a premature death, which btw can be a $1,500 repair!
Something that has NOT been mentioned in the whole preventive maintenance sceanrio is resale value. Do you want to buy a used car that has had all it's preventive maintenance done or one that has no real service history? Selling a vehicle? One that has a good set of service history records will sell faster and at a higher price.
Reliability, tow bills, lost work from breakdowns, etc. all need to be factored into the whole picture.
Makes absolutely no sense to not maintain a car.
I generally don't give customers choices/menu items a la carte, or what brands to use in the repair process. They are not eductated enough to know what really is best, as it is not their area of expertise, but rather mine.
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08/17/2006 09:54:18 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by BradP:
In fact, no city water should ever be introduced into to any part of a modern vehicle. |
I'm not buying bottled water to rinse off the windshield : ( |
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08/17/2006 10:00:37 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
so if the mechanic took an hour longer would they charge you for the extra hour then? I bet they would, in which case the consumer is the one getting screwed either way you look at it. |
No. Shops that use flat-rate use flat-rate regardless of the actual time.
Also remember that the amount of time the shop had the car doesn't tell you much. If something is a 2-person job, and 2 technicians work on your car for an hour, that's two labor-hours, even though they only had your car for an hour.
~Terry
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08/17/2006 10:07:06 PM · #93 |
You wanna talk about expensive repairs...I drive an Audi A4!
The car is a delight to drive, looks great, fantastic fit and finish, etc but the repairs are astronomical.
The suspension is so damn complex, the underside of the car puts me in mind of the International Space Station.
The ABS is a joke (on the 97 at least).
I've started to take the car to non-Audi mechanics since the warranty expired. That's saving me something, but parts are still a nightmare. |
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08/17/2006 10:09:25 PM · #94 |
I just buy a new car when the old ones starts looking like it needs tires.
Is that wrong?
:-) |
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08/17/2006 10:14:41 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by BradP:
In fact, no city water should ever be introduced into to any part of a modern vehicle. |
I'm not buying bottled water to rinse off the windshield : ( |
Monk would! 
Keyword "Into", as in cooling system, battery, windshield washer system. |
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08/17/2006 10:15:09 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
I just buy a new car when the old ones starts looking like it needs tires.
Is that wrong?
:-) |
Add up the payments, insurance, and title/taxes and you tell me:) |
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08/17/2006 10:24:20 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Originally posted by Melethia:
I just buy a new car when the old ones starts looking like it needs tires.
Is that wrong?
:-) |
Add up the payments, insurance, and title/taxes and you tell me:) |
Works for me! |
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08/17/2006 10:28:06 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by Fromac:
You wanna talk about expensive repairs...I drive an Audi A4! |
Saw this car while driving home from L.A. last Tuesday ... : )
AUDI 2U2
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08/17/2006 10:29:44 PM · #99 |
Hey thanks for the info Brad. That gives me something solid to look at and judge what's worth it and what isn't.
The inspection part is funny though. In New York at least, the yearly car inspection cost $10. Basically it's a chance for the mechanic to find something to do which he can earn money at. I would think most mechanics would want to do that for free in anticipation of possible business.
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08/17/2006 10:33:01 PM · #100 |
Taking your car to good mechanic is worth it. If nothing else, for peace of mind alone. I have access to one, and I trust him to take care of my care the right way. I sometimes do my own oil changes, but I buy good filters and oil.
I've seen too many things screwed up by quick change places to trust them anymore. My friend had her engine ruined when the guy at the quicky oil change over tightened the drain plug and split the oil pan. Never bothered to say anything or didn't notice. Needless to say, a few blocks away, there was no oil left and things went down hill quickly from there. The guys at the oil change place denied any wrongdoing. It wasn't until she got a lawyer involved they owned up. |
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