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08/07/2006 08:59:38 PM · #51 |
@OP-
best to shoot all RAW.
second best, shoot outdoors in JPG, bad light and formals in RAW
reception can be JPG
1.5gb is not very much memory for a 5 to 8 hour event. I suggest getting more.
Now,
Originally posted by Artyste:
From all sounds of it, it is indeed the case. Prof_Fate has a history of responding the way he did in many, many, many threads.. and I'm sorry if I snapped for a second, but quite frankly, it gets tiring.
Do I think his "heart is in the right place"? Not for one second.
He's an elitist that can rarely back it up, and I don't feel bad for one second for calling him on it.
If it gets me in trouble, so be it. But enough is enough.
Had he actually taken the time to read the thread, and realized exactly what the OP was talking about.. who knows.
I don't hold my breath though. |
Sorry I tire you. I don't go for the flowery prose and such, you're right. To the point, short and (perhaps not so) sweet.
WAYYYYYYY too many people shoot a few digital shots and then have ideas they can do anything. I meet them daily. Some can. Some can't. I don't (think) I tell folks don't do it. I might suggest (perhaps too abruptly) that they will do better with the right equipment, or will have limitations with what they have, or that they need to practice.
Am I an elitist? You think I am and that't your perception, and your perception is your reality. Fine, you are entitled to your opinion.
I've decided to pursue photography as a profession, so excuse me if I preach professionalism. I've seen too many posts "My coworker says I take purty pics and I'm gonna shoot their wedding for $100. What's Av and Tv mode mean?" - I am not going to apologize for telling them they aren't ready to shoot a wedding.
Mostly on weddings I warn folks about disappointing a bride. I know they won't do it intentionally but to throw out some some reality should not be a sin. Here they can get a 3.5 in a challenge and no one cares - give a bride a 3.5 wedding and she has to live with it for the rest of her life. Sorry if I feel that's a responsibility to be taken seriously. it's the professional in me.
Are my wedding photos the best out there? Hell no. I do have the cajunas to show them, and not hide them behind PW galleries and such. I am making money and not disappointing anyone. I have read alot, practiced a lot and learn from my mistakes. I may not have L glass and a 1Ds, but I've got good glass, good cameras and am seeking to improve.
Do I say the same thing over and over? Perhaps it's because the questions keep repeating. You don't need to keep reading my answers since you know what i;ll say before i say it and it irritates you.
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08/07/2006 09:04:59 PM · #52 |
To the OP...shoot in JPEG as it doesn't sound like your friend has to ability to mess with the RAW images anyway, and as long as you pay attention, you can be pretty close using JPEG. I would say take a deep breath, relax, have fun! It would be great if you could get even one more card...but if you can't just work with what you have. And don't let harsh comments deter you, as someone else said...you must be doing something right if you keep getting referals.
To Prof... I have also been on the sharp end of your barbs (aka brutal honesty) before. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt so I don't think you really mean those comments to come off the way that they do...(that you pretty much thing that anyone just starting out is a total moron) you are just trying to tell it like it is. It would be interesting to know how you started doing weddings? Did you have all of the equip that you would like to have when you started, as well as all of the experience and knowledge that you would need? I doubt it (if you did you are one lucky SOB)...Maybe you should just keep in mind the practicalities of starting out when you make those biting comments. |
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08/07/2006 09:14:42 PM · #53 |
this is the kinda thread that endears me to dpc...
keep it simple.
get the $44 card, if you have time.
if you already have a conversion utility, shoot the formals raw, everything else large/fine jpg.
if you don't have a conversion utility, but are ready to learn one, shoot the formals raw, shoot everything else large/fine jpg.
otherwise, shoot everything large/fine jpg.
if you have a laptop, take it. or if you can get some kind of intermediate storage device, go that route.
personally, i hardly ever shoot raw. my camera seems to be smart enough to figure out what to do, and i think you've got a pretty smart camera, as well ;-)
your co-worker knows what she's getting, and you've done it before. sounds like the making of a fun afternoon/evening. enjoy yourself. you DON'T have to shoot 2000 shots. really. just do what you've done before, keep your eyes open, and have a good time. |
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08/07/2006 09:17:17 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by carisakD70:
It would be interesting to know how you started doing weddings? Did you have all of the equip that you would like to have when you started, as well as all of the experience and knowledge that you would need? I doubt it (if you did you are one lucky SOB)...Maybe you should just keep in mind the practicalities of starting out when you make those biting comments. |
I got my 300D. I wanted better lenses, flash, etc. Needed money. Figured I'd make some money with my rebel to buy the lenses, etc. Sound familiar?
So I asked a few folks and weddings was suggested - $1000 for a day's work they said, but stressful and tiring. So i asked around and got into a couple of weddings as a guest and one they had no photog so i got to 'play' a bit - they got a CD, and I got experience and portfolio material. I knew the importance of not screwing up/disappointing a bride. SO i read some books, some videos, spent $700 on a week long school, spent thousands more on the proper equipment (backup equipment, memory, fast glass, batteries, etc). There ya go, in business.
Do you need L glass? no
fast glass? For anything but outdoors, yeah, you pretty much do or lots of flash. Sorry, but 99% of preachers don't allow flash during the ceremony. So high iso helps, fast glass helps, and even a tripod.
30D or 1D? no. Easier in some ways than a 300D or 350, but they'll work.
JPG? some use it fine. I've seen some really ill-colored albums that brides bought. I've seem MyPublisher albums sold for $500 as a wedding album, and the one i did as a sample I can show you how it's falling apart. I've seen other digial album companies have color shift issues...
Sure folks here are helpful, but spend an hour with a pro lab's tech person and you learn SOOOO much more it's not even funny. I try to pass on what i've learned -there is more than one way to do things, sure. I tell you what works for me, or most of the pros i've learned from. You can skip my advice, their advice, go and reinvent the wheel yourself. I've had the good fortune to meet some folks that pass on their knowledge to me, and I pass it on to others. I may lack tact, and I'm not PC either. Life's too short.
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08/07/2006 09:18:19 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by skiprow:
this is the kinda thread that endears me to dpc...
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ROFLMAO (in an elitist way of course)
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08/07/2006 09:22:07 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Are my wedding photos the best out there? Hell no. I do have the cajunas to show them, and not hide them behind PW galleries and such. |
Not worth it to respond to anything else you said. Leave it at that, as they say.
This line, however, really confuses me. Hiding behind PW galleries? Passworded.. right? Because.. the people that have passworded galleries are all.. what... scared to show their work? They aren't doing it to respect their clients' wishes or privacy? That maybe not everyone wants their personal wedding shots up on the internet where everyone can just go see them?
See.. *this* is the kind of thinking that I'm talking about. It's not about you just being honest. It's about you constantly, and consistently, making statements like this without any real thought or regard for.. well.. anything.
Like carisakD70 says.. not everyone has a chance to start out big. Everyone has to start *somewhere*.. and if starting with people that wouldn't have *any* photographs of their wedding (except guest snapshots), is where you have to start. So be it. Preach professionalism all you want, but start realizing that professionalism usually comes with time, practice, sweat, tears, and every other cliche out there. It's not helpful at all, to anyone, to tell them to not do something because they don't have all the right equipment or seem to have the ability. What is helpful is to try and help them find ways to work the best with what they've got.
You don't have to be the syrupy sweet fake "I love your photos man!" that you dislike so strongly.. but please, for everyone's sake, don't be the "OMG you suck you have the worst equipment ever never shoot a wedding the bride will cry!" prick on the opposite end of the scale that you generally end up being. Try and find a middle ground, use some tact, and maybe.. just maybe.. end up helping someone instead of possibly just coming across wrong.
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08/07/2006 09:25:32 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Di:
EXCUSE ME ?? you bashed the equipment of the OP and was rude while doing it... you get called out on the rug and you start screaming personal attack...UNCALLED for! both the rudeness towards the OP and the attack on Artyste...
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I did not bash the equipment.
a 430 is fine, but it is a bit weak for wedding in power and recycle time.
kit lens...i'm only calling it not fast. others here have bashed it for a long time.
70-300 4-5.6 is not an indoors lens, and not great with flash. I can mention this, or he knows it, or will find out the hard way - after the wedding when it's too late.
I'm gonna go race NASCAR and I have a 79 ford crown victoria and bald tires. Do you think I should wear a helmet?
Do ya think it's wrong to point out the old, underpowered car, bad tires, lack of safety equipment? Perhaps jsut saying 'get a helmet' is considered good advice, but i went further. and I get my head bit off.
Perhaps I've outgrown DPC, as others that have gone on to making a living at phogography have done. If you think i'm abrupt/short/mean/to the point/elitist, you ain't been on all that many internet forums have you?
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08/07/2006 09:27:03 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
I've seen too many posts "My coworker says I take purty pics and I'm gonna shoot their wedding for $100. What's Av and Tv mode mean?" - I am not going to apologize for telling them they aren't ready to shoot a wedding. |
I shot three weddings for friends as an "unofficial" photographer using nothing more than a PowerShot G2 and 420ex flash- usually on Auto. In every case, I matched or surpassed the hired pro and his equipment arsenal. The flip side is that I've seen photogs with high-end rigs and decades of experience shoot total crap. What you have and what you've studied are not as important as what you can do.
In the right hands, a Rebel and 430ex can be quite capable even without L lenses, so let's not make wild assumptions about the readiness of someone whose work you've never even seen. At the very least, if the OP is the only photographer willing or able to shoot this wedding and you talk him out of it, then you leave the bride with nothing. Nice. |
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08/07/2006 09:27:50 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
I'm gonna go race NASCAR and I have a 79 ford crown victoria and bald tires. Do you think I should wear a helmet?
Do ya think it's wrong to point out the old, underpowered car, bad tires, lack of safety equipment? Perhaps jsut saying 'get a helmet' is considered good advice, but i went further. and I get my head bit off.
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The OP is not going to race NASCAR with a 79 cv...he's shooting a wedding from someone he sknows...with what he can afford. Seriously prof, and you do this all the time, don't put other people down so much...if you don't have anything nice to add, don't add anything.
I'm not saying that you were necessarilly trying to put him down, but believe me, from an outsider's view, you definately did.
Just move on dude...move on.
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08/07/2006 09:29:40 PM · #60 |
| you know, to be successful, you have to be a good salesman. to be a good salesmen, you have to be able to educate people. to be able to educate people, you have to be able listen to them. communication is a habit. if you try to save all your honey for your best customers while spewing vinegar on everyone else, well, sooner or later, you're probably gonna spew vinegar on the wrong person... |
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08/07/2006 09:30:27 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
I've seen too many posts "My coworker says I take purty pics and I'm gonna shoot their wedding for $100. What's Av and Tv mode mean?" - I am not going to apologize for telling them they aren't ready to shoot a wedding. |
I shot three weddings for friends as an "unofficial" photographer using nothing more than a PowerShot G2 and 420ex flash- usually on Auto. In every case, I matched or surpassed the hired pro and his equipment arsenal. The flip side is that I've seen photogs with high-end rigs and decades of experience shoot total crap. What you have and what you've studied are not as important as what you can do.
In the right hands, a Rebel and 430ex can be quite capable even without L lenses, so let's not make wild assumptions about the readiness of someone whose work you've never even seen. At the very least, if the OP is the only photographer willing or able to shoot this wedding and you talk him out of it, then you leave the bride with nothing. Nice. |
I think the wedding party appreciates the candid a lot more. Granted you have to have the standard shots of bride, groom, family, etc; but the candid shots are what they really like because the day goes by in a haze. |
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08/07/2006 09:35:52 PM · #62 |
Prof...In your defense I have gotten some good advice from you in the past (could probably look back and quote it, but don't have time). I have just learned to take your comments with a grain of salt as I have learned that you are a little harsh.
I hope that you don't leave if you feel you have "outgrown" the site (just so you know that sounds a bit arrogant). I hope that if you really feel that you are better than the rest of us that you will stick around and help others out, but do so in a more supportive and less degrading way. I am sure that you have a ton of things to share, just try not to be so sharp. |
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08/07/2006 09:37:12 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by faidoi:
...the candid shots are what they really like because the day goes by in a haze. |
Indeed. I basically ignored the formals at a wedding this past Saturday and let the "pro" do his thing except for a few shots that he wasn't in a position to get. I was all over the reception though. The formals are for frames, but the candids are for memories. ;-) |
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08/07/2006 09:42:47 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
I shot three weddings for friends as an "unofficial" photographer using nothing more than a PowerShot G2 and 420ex flash- usually on Auto. In every case, I matched or surpassed the hired pro and his equipment arsenal. The flip side is that I've seen photogs with high-end rigs and decades of experience shoot total crap. What you have and what you've studied are not as important as what you can do.
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I agree completely. I've shot tons of gigs with a 35mm SLR... I've shot a wedding with my Coolpix 8700 (P&S). I'm shooting weddings (and getting paid well) with a Canon 300D. Knowing how to use your equipment and knowing its limitations is far more important than having the very best of equipment. Sometimes, the more toys you have at your disposal just distracts more than it helps.
I've never liked that everyone that gets into photography thinks he needs the very best of equipment, because it's just not true and it discourages new photogs.
My words of advice --- learn to use what you have and from that learn what you need, instead of listening to all the rumors that float around about the must haves.
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08/07/2006 09:51:47 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Frankly we are all talking a lot and the OP hasn't said anything yet, so maybe he's long gone. I'd like to know what the expectations are. I assumed they were low because all she was getting was pictures on a CD. That doesn't sound like "professional expectations" to me and does sound like "we don't have any money and I'm really glad my friend is willing to take some time to shoot it for me". Is this the case? |
I'm back! And have made it half way down page two of three. I had to leave work and buy a flash, extra gig card, and spare camera battery.
BTW HOLY CRAP!
Not looking for personal attacks, just a few suggestions about how to make out the best with what I've got. Thanks to everyone with their suggestions. I am going to shoot the wedding! There aren't great expectations, she originally hired a $1000 photographer and I was to shoot back ups. Her mom fired the pro...just me now. It is a "we don't have a lot of jack laying around and this guy has done this a time or two, let's see how they turn out." I figure if they wanted pro, they would have coughed up the multi-grand like I did for my wedding. Since they can't, I am just trying to give something besides uncle charlie's disposable...this is fairly rural Missouri here. Anyway, I will read on and get back to playing with my new flash. |
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08/07/2006 10:11:01 PM · #66 |
Drew where are you at in St. Louis, when is the wedding and where is it at. I'm just south of there and I could offer either some help or loan you some equipment if you needed it. I have a Sigma 500DG super flash, and some fast glass. NOt sure if it would work out as I do have some prior shoots that I have to do. But if you contact me maybe I can help you out.
MattO
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08/07/2006 10:17:47 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Drew where are you at in St. Louis, when is the wedding and where is it at. I'm just south of there and I could offer either some help or loan you some equipment if you needed it. I have a Sigma 500DG super flash, and some fast glass. NOt sure if it would work out as I do have some prior shoots that I have to do. But if you contact me maybe I can help you out.
MattO |
Wow, that is a really generous offer, Matt. I admire you! |
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08/07/2006 10:23:08 PM · #68 |
Hey dude, here's my two cents...
Get a Sigma 500 DG for a flash instead. It's plenty powerful enough... Much less money too... By the sounds of things, you probably won't be needing most of the really advanced features of the flash, you just need a bit of power and something that will work with your E-TTL system.
Then get a 4GB CF card.. Should be able to get one for around 100 bucks US equivalent (4GB Apacer 100X). Mine was $110 3 months ago... I've seen faster cards for less since then.
Additionally, if you can afford it, get a 50mm f/1.8. Stop down to f/4 or thereabouts and use it... You will be stopping down, so you won't be getting the most amount of light, but your DOF should be fairly decent and you will be getting MUCH sharper results than the 18-55...
For the kiss, use burst mode and don't neglect the 'lead-in'. Don't feel self-conscious about being nearby... Plan where you will stand beforehand and check shadows and light with another couple if necessary. Don't bother with AI focus for the burst mode.
If you get that stuff right, you will have a lot of room to breathe.
While you are at it, check out a forum thread called 'mystery modifier revealed'. It may give you some great ideas on how to soften that flash up a bit and this will go a long way towards improving your final look...
Don't be afraid to use ISO 800 for some things, but be careful and do your best to keep it at least 400 or better.
Do your best to get the basic equipment and you and she will be much, much happier.
Don't forget to test things out beforehand.
Shoot RAW when you need customizability. Shoot JPG when you have predictable circumstances such as lighting and lighting temperature... Know what each mode can give you.
If your light is good, JPG will give you good quality. If you light sucks, sometimes RAW can bring it back...
Don't forget a grey card. And shoot it often, flash off. You don't need to shoot it in custom white balance mode if you are shooting in RAW. You can use it for color adjustment later on.
Don't be afraid of the RAW converter. I use Canon DPP right now and it's quite straightforward to get good results. |
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08/07/2006 10:25:49 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by MattO:
Drew where are you at in St. Louis, when is the wedding and where is it at. I'm just south of there and I could offer either some help or loan you some equipment if you needed it. I have a Sigma 500DG super flash, and some fast glass. NOt sure if it would work out as I do have some prior shoots that I have to do. But if you contact me maybe I can help you out.
MattO |
Wow, that is a really generous offer, Matt. I admire you! |
ditto!
and that, my friends is what REALLY endears me to this site!! |
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08/07/2006 11:03:23 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by MattO:
...if you contact me maybe I can help you out. |
This is like a rainbow after the storm, and why DPC is the only online community for me. ;-) |
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08/07/2006 11:20:15 PM · #71 |
Don't forget the extra batteries!
Like has been said before about a wedding:
The cake is eaten
the dress is put away never to seen again
the friends change and move away
the flowers die the next day .....
The only thing that last are the photos.
When I've talked to brides and their moms I always remind them of this. They have no problem spending a $1000 or more on flowers, the same on the gown and several hundred or more on the cake but when it comes to the photos they always want to save money ... photos is the one thing that will last when the memories all fade away.
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08/07/2006 11:25:16 PM · #72 |
I still think its worth getting some fast glass. Maybe make an agreement with your co-worker that she buy you the Canon 50mm 1.8. This remains the all-time best value for money lens and will enable you to pull off shots in poor lighting that you just can't now.
Good luck.
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08/07/2006 11:40:54 PM · #73 |
questions to answer...the wedding is this Saturday (12th), in Jefferson City. I'm in St. Louis City, just South of the Bud brewery-free beer at the end of every free tour ;) There will be a ceremony, trolly ride, outside group photos, and reception...no time between. I've picked up another gig, a spare cannon battery, and a 430ex...beats the pop up flash I've used before.
I will try and shoot as many formals as I can in RAW, at least the important ones. And go with large, fine JPEG for the rest. I can pack my laptop and contemplait a USB card reader this week. Thanks so much to those offering advice...I don't know why this wedding has me more nervous than all the others.
As for the Prof...if you take your boot off of my head long enough for me to look through the eyepiece, I might be able to snap a few shots. (I am totally kidding!) I'm a newbie at this and enjoy my expensive hobby. As for "consumer glass, weak flashes and not enough memory" water off a ducks back. I've gotten by on less. And BTW I bought the 75-300 to shoot outside, in the duck blind, four years ago (while I was paying for college) for my Rebel 35mm. I bet you loved your first zoom as much as I do mine.
Edit to add: We don't say "Purdy" in Missouri, where do you think this is Arkansas! (Again kidding, for all the Arkansas folks out there)
I hope everyday to become a better photographer. All I can do is shoot everything that comes my way, keep the good ones and learn from the bad ones. Thanks everybody!
Message edited by author 2006-08-07 23:49:04. |
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08/07/2006 11:43:43 PM · #74 |
Fun, entertaining, and educational thread to read. Most importantly to the OP - good luck and have fun!! (And I second the 50/1.8 - best lens you can buy for $80 or so.)
Definitely get the card reader - they're cheap and very useful little things.
Edit to say I'm SO not ever gonna do weddings... :-)
Message edited by author 2006-08-07 23:44:12. |
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08/07/2006 11:52:19 PM · #75 |
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