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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> Where do you draw the line?
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 08/02/2006 09:23:32 AM · #1
In light of the recent happenings here on DPC, I have been doing a lot of thinking. I browse the users profile pages a lot. I love it when they have blogs and other sites. I just love looking at the works of others. I have noticed recently, that some people post their challenge entries or something similar (maybe an outtake) at the same time that 'voting' is going on. I know that some of these blogs and sites have to be viewed by other members of DPC like myself. Isn't this like cheating?

Part of me says yes. I have posted my entries on other sites, but only AFTER the 'voting' is over. At the same time, I love to photograph my child. Some people have favorite models. Some people like 'self'-portraits. All of these subjects would be easily recognized after so many challenges, therefore the photographer would be recognized. I don't think you could ban anyone from photographing any recognizable subjects.

I guess the answer lies with the ethics of the voter. Do you let recognition sway your 'voting' patterns. If you saw your buddy's picture on another site, would you vote your buddy higher (or if someone you didn't care for, would you vote them lower)? If you recognize my child, or someone else's model, or another photographer themselves, how does that sway your 'voting'?

I think the conclusion I come to is that it is wiser to not show your work or any form of it to anyone during the submission or 'voting' phase. At the same time, shooting a familiar subject or style cannot be policed. If there is favortism as a result, so be it. I would think that most members and registered users on this site wouldn't let things like that sway their 'voting'. You always have a few bad apples - that's life.

I am interested on other's views on the subject.
 08/02/2006 09:32:12 AM · #2
Anyone?
08/02/2006 09:36:28 AM · #3
Originally posted by persimon:
In light of the recent happenings here on DPC, I have been doing a lot of thinking. I browse the users profile pages a lot. I love it when they have blogs and other sites. I just love looking at the works of others. I have noticed recently, that some people post their challenge entries or something similar (maybe an outtake) at the same time that 'voting' is going on. I know that some of these blogs and sites have to be viewed by other members of DPC like myself. Isn't this like cheating?

Part of me says yes. I have posted my entries on other sites, but only AFTER the 'voting' is over. At the same time, I love to photograph my child. Some people have favorite models. Some people like 'self'-portraits. All of these subjects would be easily recognized after so many challenges, therefore the photographer would be recognized. I don't think you could ban anyone from photographing any recognizable subjects.

I guess the answer lies with the ethics of the voter. Do you let recognition sway your 'voting' patterns. If you saw your buddy's picture on another site, would you vote your buddy higher (or if someone you didn't care for, would you vote them lower)? If you recognize my child, or someone else's model, or another photographer themselves, how does that sway your 'voting'?

I think the conclusion I come to is that it is wiser to not show your work or any form of it to anyone during the submission or 'voting' phase. At the same time, shooting a familiar subject or style cannot be policed. If there is favortism as a result, so be it. I would think that most members and registered users on this site wouldn't let things like that sway their 'voting'. You always have a few bad apples - that's life.

I am interested on other's views on the subject.


As an experiment early on in my membership, I withheld posting photos in my blogs to see if there was any difference in the scores. There wasn't. Looking at my bell curve, I see nothing improper going on. The only consideration I make is that I don't generally mention that the photo is going to be a challenge entry. I'm posting so many other non-DPC photos that it doesn't much matter.

Keep in mind also that info sharing is not against the rules. It's when you start to use it for vote farming that it becomes illegal per the ToS.

On the other side of the coin, if I know who a photo belongs to, I don't vote on it.

Edited for this clarification:
If I know 100% who the photo belongs to, like if I saw it in someone's blog, my friend tells me in exact detail about their photo, or if my WPL teammates post something looking for editing advice. That's when I withhold my vote. If I suspect but can't be sure, then it doesn't bother me to vote on that photo.

Message edited by author 2006-08-02 09:46:57.
 08/02/2006 09:42:01 AM · #4
I guess I don't see this as being all that different from seeing a photo in the 'voting' phase and somehow recognizing who the photog is. Joey and Bear both come to mind as photogs whose entries sometimes stand out. In both cases, the voter has background info. Personally, I work hard to vote on the merits of the photo, and disregard what I may know about who might have shot it.

There's just no way to make the whole process sterile. If you recognize something and choose not to vote, that's just as responsible as 'voting' without a bias. In most cases, it all balances out.
 08/02/2006 09:42:35 AM · #5
I can tell you now that I can spot graphicfunk's entries without seeing them posted anywhere else, Laurus and Librodo too. If I did find someones entry on say eyefetch, then it would fall into the same category as graphicfunk's entry. I don't see a problem.

I don't vote them any higher or lower because of that - simply vote on what I see before me.
 08/02/2006 09:53:57 AM · #6
Yeah, I agree- you can't police recognizability. What do you think of posting a challenge entry or similar outtake on an alternate site during submission and/or 'voting' - when you know that other DPC users/members might see your entry and recognize it in the challenge?

Is casual posting of an image the same as blatantly saying, "Hey, here is my challenge entry. Will you give me a good vote?" The intention may not be the same, but the outcome may be similar - a sway in votes for your image.

I'm not going either way on the matter. Just curious to see what other's think. I haven't decided where I stand on that issue. I think it could be a slippery slope though.

Message edited by author 2006-08-02 09:56:04.
 08/02/2006 10:14:17 AM · #7
Well from experience, I believe recognizablity of photos here is a double edged sword. There are a few that like the photog that will score it a bit higher. Then there a re a lot that will strike it down, because they are nazis :-)

But, overall, I think voters are lazy and many don't go looking through profiles and unless the photo is REALLY striking won't remember who shot it.Human psychology is the limiting factor here.

Just to prove a point: without looking, who remembers what the 5th place image in the Green II challenge was? Red Ribbon?
 08/02/2006 10:43:37 AM · #8
I do not see an issue with the recognition of styles here. I usually can tell which ones are Jutilda's, and which ones are Librodios, and which ones are Joeys, and I can hazard guesses as to which ones are idnics, bears and shutterpugs. I do not let that knowledge affect my 'voting' at all. For some, it does make a difference. I go based on appeal, technical aspects, subject interest, and comparison to other photos in the challenge.
I have an ability of nearly having a photographic memory when it comes to the comparison aspect. Often my scores don't follow the highest scorers, because of the comparison nature of my 'voting'. Anyway, it is nice to maintain anonymity, but I don't think it plays a big role in the final scores.
 08/03/2006 10:28:12 PM · #9
This remains a problem and always will.

I am an avid observers of many ports. I love looking because i find it most stimulating and then too I want to make sure that I do not duplicate a concept under an existing execution. So, yes, I know the styles of many images and their originators, but even if I happen to know the individual, the vote I give is only on the merit of the image.

Votes of spite I never give because spite along with other negative emotions interfere with the creative process. These negative forces mutilate and mangle the head. I prefer to be free.

I have worked with many models but my problem is that I love the spur of the moment. Hence you see a lot of my images with me as the model.

Regardless, I believe that every image should stand on its own and when you work hard to make this so, you will feel a freedom. By keeping your evaluation as free as possible, you will be able to judge yourself better and this is really the name of the game. If you favor a bad photo of a friend you will favor yours for the same reason.

You can play all the mind games you like but would it not be better to simply judge the image and move on to your future efforts. There is not much that your single vote can control so why not keep the mind free. It will serve you better.

Message edited by author 2006-08-03 22:30:20.
 08/03/2006 10:42:34 PM · #10
I dare not expose my entry (or even hint it) to anyone who could vote because everyone knows that everybody hates me and that everyone will vote me down! you sick bas@#%$@ !!!

j/k
 08/03/2006 10:53:43 PM · #11
I think that knowing who shot the photo does have an impact. As I recall, the 'self'-portrait challenge's top places scores were a bit higher than usual, a rare eigth point top finisher, and many shots were recognized, which in my opinion made the scores a bit higher.
 08/03/2006 11:11:34 PM · #12
it's not against the rules to reveal your entry outside of DPC as long as people are 'voting' fairly.
 08/03/2006 11:20:00 PM · #13
my entries still suck if they are on a blog or entered here - I doubt running into one of them more than once would do anything but drive the score down!

Honestly, if someone is a pain in a forum - I might "know" them a little - but generally I don't really know anyone here - whether I see their image anywhwere else doesn't make me like the image more or less - and since I don't know the person - there's no way it's going to influence a vote.

I have a circle of friends here locally that occasionally help each other decide what shot to enter. When I see the shot in a challenge, I still vote what I think the shot is worth - even though I've seen it before and know who entered it.

I have a hard time seeing how multiple postings of a shot would affect anybody's perception of it enough to change the outcome much.

I've been thinking what the competition here would be like if we had a challenge that awarded money instead of just a little graphic. :-) Blood would run in the streets.

Message edited by author 2006-08-03 23:21:15.
 08/03/2006 11:43:41 PM · #14
I figure no one has seen my photoblog, and out of the maybe 1 or 2 people here who might have, I doubt they would have swayed the votes any differently.

However, I did think about it when submitted my Lines II challenge entry, but didn't bother waiting.

If I was a really well known and popular member however, I probably would wait until after viewing.

-Hideo
 08/07/2006 12:52:08 AM · #15
I admit, I do post about my entries. I expect that people would, should, and do, vote based on the quality of the submission, not based on who made it.

I don't and will never vote based on a name. If I think a photo deserves a 1, or a 5, or a 10, that's what it gets.

If I found that anyone were 'voting' differently based on prior knowledge, I'd have serious words with them, regardless of whether it was up or down.
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