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07/23/2006 03:03:25 PM · #1 |
can someone tell me/point me to where it explains what a 'major element' pertains to when it comes to advanced editing... i am borderline whether or not to remove something from a pic i shot today.
thanks.
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07/23/2006 03:05:22 PM · #2 |
Submit a ticket to SC, they're the only ones can say.
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07/23/2006 03:08:02 PM · #3 |
Go to the Help/Contact page in the menu at the top and submit a ticket for the SC. What is a major element is completely up to the subjective opinion of the SC.
David
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07/23/2006 04:34:29 PM · #4 |
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07/23/2006 04:39:32 PM · #5 |
Easy test: Show the original shot to someone and ask them to describe it. If they include the object you wish to clone out in their description it is probably a major element...
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07/23/2006 04:54:13 PM · #6 |
In my opinion...
It is a major element if it is:
1. Top 3 subjects in your shot
2. Consists of a physical and literal major portion of your composition.
But that is my opinion and have been dq'd before so....
Or I use the "ehhh" feeling. if I clone something out and say, "ehhhh, I don't know", then don't risk it.
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07/23/2006 04:56:09 PM · #7 |
ok here's a text description of what it is...
it's a fence post on a path leading up to the main subject... it's not blocking the subject(s), just noticeable and bothers me.
so i scrapped it.
Message edited by author 2006-07-23 16:56:22.
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07/23/2006 07:29:35 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Easy test: Show the original shot to someone and ask them to describe it. If they include the object you wish to clone out in their description it is probably a major element... |
Yes, that is the test that is mentioned. Very subjective, with nearly everyone a person could show the image to likely to give a different answer. Unfortunately, the SC are the only people with subjective opinions that matter in this regard.
Hopefully this is one area that is addressed in the rules rewrite and given a definitive existence -- without that I fear they will just be turning the problem around to see a different side of it.
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07/23/2006 07:30:50 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by saintaugust:
ok here's a text description of what it is...
it's a fence post on a path leading up to the main subject... it's not blocking the subject(s), just noticeable and bothers me.
so i scrapped it. |
If the fence creates a leading line to or away from the subject you may have problems.
---
Oops, just noticed it was a single post, not the fence-line, you wanted to scrap. For this it may come down to size. Hard to say which way it would go, even if we could see the image.
Message edited by author 2006-07-23 19:32:35.
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07/23/2006 07:32:22 PM · #10 |
| If the likely description of your original is "fence + object" and now it's "object," you're probably in dangerous territory. |
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07/23/2006 08:27:05 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by saintaugust:
can someone tell me/point me to where it explains what a 'major element' pertains to when it comes to advanced editing... i am borderline whether or not to remove something from a pic i shot today.
thanks. |
If you are "borderline" about it now, then I wouldn't expect you to be too surprised if some on SC found it a violation.
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07/25/2006 07:33:30 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by saintaugust:
can someone tell me/point me to where it explains what a 'major element' pertains to when it comes to advanced editing... i am borderline whether or not to remove something from a pic i shot today.
thanks. |
If you are "borderline" about it now, then I wouldn't expect you to be too surprised if some on SC found it a violation. |
Takes a majority vote, doesn't it, to be DQ'd? |
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07/25/2006 07:34:51 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Originally posted by TooCool:
Easy test: Show the original shot to someone and ask them to describe it. If they include the object you wish to clone out in their description it is probably a major element... |
Yes, that is the test that is mentioned. Very subjective, with nearly everyone a person could show the image to likely to give a different answer. Unfortunately, the SC are the only people with subjective opinions that matter in this regard.
Hopefully this is one area that is addressed in the rules rewrite and given a definitive existence -- without that I fear they will just be turning the problem around to see a different side of it. |
If it's subjective, as you've pointed out, how can you have a definitive existence? |
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07/25/2006 02:35:36 PM · #14 |
To me, it's a little more subtle than "top 3 objects."
Is it something that's noticeable or not? Is it a minor distraction or something the really adds to or subtracts from the impact of the shot?
An example to me of adding a major element would be to create a shadow that adds drama. Or putting in lens flare. |
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07/25/2006 03:16:18 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by David.C:
Originally posted by TooCool:
Easy test: Show the original shot to someone and ask them to describe it. If they include the object you wish to clone out in their description it is probably a major element... |
Yes, that is the test that is mentioned. Very subjective, with nearly everyone a person could show the image to likely to give a different answer. Unfortunately, the SC are the only people with subjective opinions that matter in this regard.
Hopefully this is one area that is addressed in the rules rewrite and given a definitive existence -- without that I fear they will just be turning the problem around to see a different side of it. |
If it's subjective, as you've pointed out, how can you have a definitive existence? |
What makes an element major is not subjective (in the context of the challenges), it is undefined. It is this lack of definition, coupled with the very subjective rule of thumb that causes all the confusion -- but it is the rule of thumb that is subjective, not the non-existant definition of major elements.
The rules of the game define the game. By not defining a rule clearly and difinitively, the SC have allowed everyone to fill in the missing definition with one of their own. People with differently defined rules are not playing the same game, and conflicts predictably arise every time the various different definitions collide.
What a major element is can be defined -- many have given their personal definitions in this thread and every other thread that comes up. No definition will be all-inclusive, but for the purposes of the game one can be drawn up that is definitive and easily understood. From there it can be refined over time as experience dictates.
Without clearly understood rules, the potential for fun is out-weighed by the potential for conflict.
David
Message edited by author 2006-07-25 15:16:49.
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07/25/2006 03:32:24 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Without clearly understood rules, the potential for fun is out-weighed by the potential for conflict.David |
I disagree with that last bit, and I'd say that the hundreds of entries for each challenge disagree, too.
I think this is like defining porn - you know it when you see it. Thus, the SC's voting mechanism for DQ is the perfect way to address it.
The lack of clarity is only around the edges. No one would mistake the major major major elements.
So if you're not sure, ask the SC for a ruling.
And if you want to play around the edges, do so. If you get DQ'd, oh, well. I've seen photog's comments on images that say, basically, "this is an experiment, so let's see what the SC says." That seems reasonable to me.
Even a DQ gets you votes and comments. |
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07/25/2006 03:33:36 PM · #17 |
Edited to delete double post.
Message edited by author 2006-07-25 15:33:52. |
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07/26/2006 06:40:45 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by David.C:
Without clearly understood rules, the potential for fun is out-weighed by the potential for conflict.David |
I disagree with that last bit, and I'd say that the hundreds of entries for each challenge disagree, too. ... |
Not really. It's a lot like my saying (of the casinos in Vegas) that the odds are stacked in the houses favor. No matter who you are, if you play the games there long enough you will lose your shirt. In the end, the house always wins -- and there is no way of knowing when your luck is going to run out. The same is true here; enter enough challenges and eventually you will find out how your definition of a major element differs from that of the SC.
Originally posted by levyj413:
... I think this is like defining porn - you know it when you see it. ... |
Yes I can define what porn is -- A perception of a physical intimacy that is not mine. And yes I know it when I see it -- but that doesn't mean I know what you would consider porn, even if you agreed with my definition. But I also recognize it is a matter of personal perception, so my deciding what is porn for you or anyone else is silly. It becomes a matter of enforcing a moral code instead of simply recognizing what porn is.
The SC are indeed in the same boat with regard to major elements. They know them when they see them (individially), enforcing the major elements clause has become more a matter of morality being confused with legality. As with all enforced morality, it tends to expand and control more and more as time passes. The major elements clause (although by other names originally) has grown to encompass nearly all aspects of legality with an image. Very rarely do we see an image DQed for anything the major elements clause is not envoked over.
While the core of what a major element is or is not is strictly a matter of personal perception and can not be defined for all and should not be controlled -- it has become an easy way out on matters of legality. Why bother defining clearly when it can be called a major element violation and tossed aside. Not blaming anyone (and certainly not the SC), it is an easy trap to fall into -- just look at any major religion or even the current 'terrorist' explaination for all ills.
Originally posted by levyj413:
... Thus, the SC's voting mechanism for DQ is the perfect way to address it. ... |
Not at all. Take the recent DQ of the blue ribbon winner in Abstract Foods as an example. The image was DQed for violating the major elements rule. At first it seemed to be because of cloning out multiple reflections in the mirror, but later posts point out it was probably the extension of the canvas that caused it. ...or was it both together with 'as yet unknown' additional elements. The point is, we don't know why it was DQed because the voting was done on all potential violations at once and there is no way of knowing if the individual potential violations would have resulted in a DQ or not. It produced so much confusion some immediately submitted tickets to try and understand it better with regard to their own images.
Originally posted by levyj413:
... The lack of clarity is only around the edges. No one would mistake the major major major elements. ... |
I don't remember who (hope they forgive me), but I read in a thread here of a photographer who took a picture of a sunset on a beach. The Sunset was the subject of the shot -- a major major major element if ever I heard of one. But when he saw the image full size he noticed a person (couple?) walking on the beach and that couple, completely unseen when composing the image, became the subject and the sunset just a pretty background. If the photographer can be mistaken on what the subject is in their own image -- anyone can fail to recognize an element as important even though it may be the most important element of the image to another.
Originally posted by levyj413:
... So if you're not sure, ask the SC for a ruling. ... |
The SC rarely ever give rulings -- I've seen a few, but only a very few. Mostly they just give DQs and personal opinions that may or may not have anything to do with the written rules.
Originally posted by levyj413:
... And if you want to play around the edges, do so. If you get DQ'd, oh, well. I've seen photog's comments on images that say, basically, "this is an experiment, so let's see what the SC says." That seems reasonable to me.
Even a DQ gets you votes and comments. ... |
That sounds nice, but as I pointed out earlier, it doesn't matter how closely you think your definition matches the SC's -- sooner or later you will find where it doesn't. Unfortunately, the best you can hope is to find out at someone else's expense.
Intentionally violating the rules in the hopes of tricking the SC into giving a ruling is a dangerous proposition -- and a violation of the TOS. It is unfortunate the best way to find out what works and what doesn't is also the best way to get kicked off the island.
David
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