| Author | Thread |
|
|
07/19/2006 04:30:55 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by PhilipDyer:
You could have worded your post better, William, as many others have pointed out, but I do agree with the gist of what you're trying to say. I try to approach each image believing that the photographer created every single aspect of that image on purpose and that it came out exactly how they wanted. I still tell people what I think would make an image better, but I give the photographer every benefit of the doubt. |
Oh, I assume everything was intentional also, but what does that change? If it looks oversaturated to me, what difference does it make to me whether the photographer intended it or not? Know what I mean? My comments can only reflect how I, personally, feel about what the photo is doing.
Now, if I wanted to be perfectly politically correct, I could probably come up with something like "I understand what you were after here with this image, I can see why you went the direction you did, but in my opinion you went too far with the saturation, you have blocked the reds up to an unnatural flatness that is hurting the balance of the image."
(this applies to a hypothetical example, btw, not the OP's shot)
So it would be great if I did that, very informative, but it still totally disagrees with the shooter's choice, right? Someone else, less loquacious than I, feeling the same way about the picture, might leave the one-word comment "oversaturated".
I submit that both comments are useful comments. I am always glad to get one-word comments from people that identify an area of concern. I hate getting low scores and having no clue what people did not like. Every time I make an artistic choice in processing, I recognize that it is a gamble to some degree, and I want to know exactly how others react to it.
R. |
Thus the last line of my post.
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 04:31:52 PM · #27 |
| Some people will give you a 10, some a 1. Does it matter if they leave a comment or not? Just an opinion. Not everyone will agree to what you saw and how u shot it and edited it. I would prefer a 1 vote with a nice comment of what the person thought. |
|
|
|
07/19/2006 04:35:29 PM · #28 |
I was one of the voters who commented on your photo. My comments were purely about what I would have preferred to be looking at in order to give a higher score than the one I did. for the record I gave it a 6 which, considering my average score given out is a 5.1 and I vote on 100% so it isn't a voting down.
I like to think that the comments such as mine are helpful in some way. I would like to receive more comments of this type as it helps me understand what it is that "people" like to see. There are times when I think something looks great but nobody else does - it is good to be told that!
[i]Edited the poor grammar![\i]
Message edited by author 2006-07-19 16:35:57. |
|
|
|
07/19/2006 04:39:11 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Let me reverse that for ya: why do YOU assume you know more about what the voters should like than they do? Regardless of what your intentions were here, you have received a clear message from the voters that you'd have done better without the "oversharpening".
It is what it is; it's your choice to disregard what they are saying, of course, but they are not "wrong" at all.
Robt. |
Thanks Robt, you will notice that I didn't say they were wrong I simply asked why they assumed they were absolutely correct. To tell you the truth the comments receive on this image are not very good examples for my question. Maybe I should have referred to on of my Dads posts where the comments were more representative.
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 04:40:50 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Nuzzer:
I was one of the voters who commented on your photo. My comments were purely about what I would have preferred to be looking at in order to give a higher score than the one I did. for the record I gave it a 6 which, considering my average score given out is a 5.1 and I vote on 100% so it isn't a voting down.
I like to think that the comments such as mine are helpful in some way. I would like to receive more comments of this type as it helps me understand what it is that "people" like to see. There are times when I think something looks great but nobody else does - it is good to be told that!
[i]Edited the poor grammar![\i] |
Thank you and I was very happy with a 5 or 6 on this image.
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 04:59:56 PM · #31 |
| Straying from the "formula" only gets you horsewhipped. If you want to push those limits, then either grow thicker skin or get a big bottle of Bactine. |
|
|
|
07/19/2006 05:09:16 PM · #32 |
| Only two commentors out of sixteen even mentioned sharpness. The only comments about color were that they liked it... |
|
|
|
07/19/2006 05:15:47 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Only two commentors out of sixteen even mentioned sharpness. The only comments about color were that they liked it... |
I did mention that I was happy with the comments and the votes that they indicated.
Where I am wrong on this is assuming that I know what the other 60 plus voters less than 5 were thinking.
Thicker skin must come with age.
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 05:21:49 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by willhadl:
Where I am wrong on this is assuming that I know what the other 60 plus voters less than 5 were thinking. |
How can you assume that they don't like any single element... Maybe they didn't like the shot as a whole... |
|
|
|
07/19/2006 05:30:59 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by willhadl:
Where I am wrong on this is assuming that I know what the other 60 plus voters less than 5 were thinking. |
How can you assume that they don't like any single element... Maybe they didn't like the shot as a whole... |
Exactly, I can't and should not have tried.
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 06:10:53 PM · #36 |
There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer.
Ansel Adams |
|
|
|
07/19/2006 06:13:22 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by willhadl:
... As practitioners shouldn̢۪t we put what we would have done away and think about what the photographer was trying to say? I think we should all ask ourselves was this person thinking outside the box or does it look like they are still learning to use their tools. Is there more to this image than meets the eye.
... |
I think this is expecting too much from the voters. If the photographer has done his job well enough, his message (or messages in the case of the photo in question) will be apparent. What difference does it make if the shooter is thinking outside the box or still learning? The impression the photo makes on the viewer is what's important. If it does not make a strong enough impression for the viewer to be inquisitive, is that the viewer's/voter's fault?
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 07:09:01 PM · #38 |
Well Will,
If you must know I gave your shot a 6 during voting (above average) and gave you MHO on how it would / could / be improved. Again MHO. Guess it didn't work for ya, no worries, it's your art, if myself and or the rest of the majority don't see it your way don't take offense to it. Move on to the next project and be happy with what you create, you will never please everyone.
Peace,
Nald
Message edited by author 2006-07-19 19:48:40.
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 07:25:35 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by willhadl:
... As practitioners shouldn̢۪t we put what we would have done away and think about what the photographer was trying to say? I think we should all ask ourselves was this person thinking outside the box or does it look like they are still learning to use their tools. Is there more to this image than meets the eye.
... |
I think this is expecting too much from the voters. If the photographer has done his job well enough, his message (or messages in the case of the photo in question) will be apparent. What difference does it make if the shooter is thinking outside the box or still learning? The impression the photo makes on the viewer is what's important. If it does not make a strong enough impression for the viewer to be inquisitive, is that the viewer's/voter's fault? |
Sad that objective voting is too much to expect from some voters but true. A voter should be able to put aside what they would have done and vote based on how the image was presented by the artist. In a photography class I am taking class members are expected to act as a panel of judges. The result of the judging is the grade the image receives. One of the fundamental aspects of judging other peoples work is not to think about what you would have done if you had made the image. We are asked to look at composition, focus, quality of print, Post production and how the image makes a connection. Clearly our frame of reference will affect our perception of any given image but this method is more objective than thinking this is what I would have done each time you look at an image.
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 07:46:12 PM · #40 |
| Well, this isn't a photography class. At the same time, were such detailed, objective comments along the lines of your class panel forthcoming then more people would gain the knowledge required to give such commentary themselves. It would be great all around. |
|
|
|
07/19/2006 08:07:50 PM · #41 |
umm... how do people 'know' you wanted that effect until after voting?
and yeah... i can see how some would say that.
|
|
|
|
07/19/2006 08:17:25 PM · #42 |
I realize a lot of things have already been said, but I couldn't resist...
This is a voting community based on averages. It doesn't matter if you do something on purpose, it only matters how aethestically pleasing your end result is to each individual voter.
I used to purposefully paint everything I painted when I was a kid, but that doesn't mean that anything I did could have ever been worthy of competing with Monet.
258 people voted on your entry, you can't argue that it should have scored higher, because if it should have, then it would have. Intent really has nothing to do with how much voters like/dislike your image.
I hope you don't take this too personally... I mean this as a generalization to any complaint, though I realize that pleading with people to stop complaining is about as useful as their complaining is to begin with, lol
I hope that you, as well as myself, continue to grow on this site, and also learn the specifics of what the DPC community, as a WHOLE, likes and dislikes regarding challenge entries
You have to adapt to this niche, and not expect this many people to all like your photo
BTW, who would know better than the voter what the voter does and does not like? |
|
|
|
07/20/2006 12:32:36 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by scotthadl:
One of the fundamental aspects of judging other peoples work is not to think about what you would have done if you had made the image. We are asked to look at composition, focus, quality of print, Post production and how the image makes a connection. |
Yeah; so I look at "composition" and say "it could have been better if you'd moved to the left so the telephone pole wasn't sticking out of the model's head..." And I look at the focus, and say "it could have been better if the subject's face were in focus instead of the bush in front of her..." and so forth and so on...
Are you saying I should not be thinking these thoughts, and should not be making these comments, because they represent what *I* would have done if the image were mine? That's usually not true, anyway; if the image were mine, I'd usually have done EVERYTHING different, because I'm me, see...?
But I try to put myself in YOUR shoes; this is the image YOU wanted to take, the image YOU wanted us to see. I accept that, and I say "these are some problems that keep me from voting it higher..." Isn't that what I'm supposed to do?
Now, you might say to me "But I was making a statement with the telephone pole and the focus on the bush, that's how I WANTED it to be!" And that's cool, I accept that, I really do. I just don't think it works, FOR ME, and I wanted to tell you how *I* feel about your image; isn't that what I'm supposed to do?
Color me confused...
R.
Message edited by author 2006-07-20 00:33:12.
|
|
|
|
07/20/2006 01:15:53 AM · #44 |
Good points, Bear. Once we think we understand what a photo's communication is supposed to be, then we can make suggestions as to how to improve the shot--and perhaps make comments lauding choices made that aid the photo in its communication.
If a comment ensues that is false to the fundamental communication of the image from the photographer's perspective, then the photographer is helped in a very important way: she/he now knows that his or her communication was unclear--at least to one viewer. So then the suggestion becomes irrelevant and the comment itself, assuming a false inference, becomes an important communication.
Does that make sense?
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scotthadl:
One of the fundamental aspects of judging other peoples work is not to think about what you would have done if you had made the image. We are asked to look at composition, focus, quality of print, Post production and how the image makes a connection. |
Yeah; so I look at "composition" and say "it could have been better if you'd moved to the left so the telephone pole wasn't sticking out of the model's head..." And I look at the focus, and say "it could have been better if the subject's face were in focus instead of the bush in front of her..." and so forth and so on...
Are you saying I should not be thinking these thoughts, and should not be making these comments, because they represent what *I* would have done if the image were mine? That's usually not true, anyway; if the image were mine, I'd usually have done EVERYTHING different, because I'm me, see...?
But I try to put myself in YOUR shoes; this is the image YOU wanted to take, the image YOU wanted us to see. I accept that, and I say "these are some problems that keep me from voting it higher..." Isn't that what I'm supposed to do?
Now, you might say to me "But I was making a statement with the telephone pole and the focus on the bush, that's how I WANTED it to be!" And that's cool, I accept that, I really do. I just don't think it works, FOR ME, and I wanted to tell you how *I* feel about your image; isn't that what I'm supposed to do?
Color me confused...
R. |
|
|
|
|
07/20/2006 02:28:47 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by dsidwell:
Good points, Bear. Once we think we understand what a photo's communication is supposed to be, then we can make suggestions as to how to improve the shot--and perhaps make comments lauding choices made that aid the photo in its communication.
If a comment ensues that is false to the fundamental communication of the image from the photographer's perspective, then the photographer is helped in a very important way: she/he now knows that his or her communication was unclear--at least to one viewer. So then the suggestion becomes irrelevant and the comment itself, assuming a false inference, becomes an important communication.
Does that make sense? |
All the sense in the world, friend. I remember learning in college, in a required course in speaking and presentation, that whenever there is miscommunication between speaker and audience, the fault is always with the speaker. Your task, as a communicator, is to tailor your message to the audience you want it to reach/influence.
In order to gain skill as a communicator, it's very important to receive negative feedback, to study it carefully, and to understand just what it was about your communication that caused your message not to be heard or understood.
So it is, also, with visual communication; we often get so wrapped up in the details of what we are doing, become so intimate with our images, that we can no longer view them objectively. We "assume", almost always fallaciously, that others will see them as we do, because it's all so obvious to us.
But one thing we can count on, in DPC, is that the sum of all the reactions to our images is about as objective a form of feedback as we could wish for. If half the commenters seem to "get it" and half don't, then we can pass that off easily enough as a simple illustration of how you can't please everyone all the time. But when all the negative comments focus on the same aspect/s of the image, this is a clear indication that, in this respect at least, the image has failed at its job.
Robt.
|
|
|
|
07/20/2006 03:01:47 AM · #46 |
Well put Robert, pretty much covers the obligation for undersanding being with the presenter.
Some venues are better than others when it comes to using technical flaws as a means of expressing your intent. If I see a soft focus image at a museum, I assume that the focus is a choice made by the artist. However, outside of a curated setting if the subject isnt clearly enhanced by being OOF then I tend to give a good second or two of concideration befor I decide it is a technical flaw and the work is to be downgraded.
We are not submitted to a top flight gallery, where patrons will give our work serious time to suss out the subtle details or intent. Most voters are trying to crank out 350 votes and a couple twenty comments between putting the kids to bed and going to sleep ( or some other mundane task set ).
If scoring well matters, look at the shots that do well. It is possible to create tightly focused, well edited, techincaly sound shots that are also evoocative and beautiful. If you want to go outside the box, you have to recognise that some voters don't have the time to take the trip with you. |
|
|
|
07/20/2006 04:09:19 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If you want to go outside the box, you have to recognise that some voters don't have the time to take the trip with you. |
That's a good point Brennan. You simply cannot expect universal approval when you venture outside the norm. That doesn't mean it's wrong to be experimental/creative, but you should expect that most people just won't get it.
But I believe that people who achieve success outside the established norms, are the ones who regularly venture outside the box, and who realise early on that not everyone is going to see things their way. But by persisting through the negative feedback, and learning from the constructive criticism along the way, quite often they are the ones who establish the new norm.
Someone mentioned Monet earlier in the thread. Those Impressionists were widely scorned when they first started out. They didn't hate everyone else for not liking their work - they simply tried harder to make people see things their way.
So in response to the theme of the thread, the voters don't always know more than the photographer, but it's the responsibility of the photography to find a way to communicate his/her message to the voters/viewers in a way that they can comprehend it. That takes skill, and persistence, but also a willingness to learn from the negative feedback that you get along the way (not to conform - just to learn, and make your message more clear with each new entry).
In the meantime, I've still got tons of improvement to make to my 'normal' photography before I can even begin to go outside of the box :-) |
|
|
|
07/20/2006 04:22:42 AM · #48 |
When I submit the photo for getting votes from "others", I'm seeking "their" opinion on my photo and NOT my own opinion, from their mouth/comments! And if its "their" opinion I'm seeking, I think I will acknowledge and respect it (as long as its limited to photo though :)).
All comments/opinion from "them" might not be "right" but then so is the case with my own opinion on my photos! (though I think I'm always right ;))
Till telepathy is not aquired as common skill, I think we all have to live with our opinions in isolation without knowing what was going on in photographers(and voters) mind :)
Any comment is good comment...pour in few more :) With score of 6+ in "abstract food", I have got just 5 comments in three days (thats really sucks more than getting negative comments :))
|
|
|
|
07/20/2006 04:37:07 AM · #49 |
I personally think we should reflect the Democracy we live in and
Just get rid of 'The voters', and have just have an elected leader make all the judging
- Once every 4-5 years the majority should elect a "Leader" to represent us in every aspect
- This elected leader should then judge and give (or not) comments for the 4 years he is in power, such as:
"The sharpening tool is an essential aspect which results in sharp objects, we must fight to protect the right to sharpen, not to sharpen is evil"
Also if he chooses he can start booming other websites that do not agree with the 'democracy' we have
- If you disagree with the comments or actions you can wait the rest of the remaining years for the majority to speak up again! Then your vote would really count
IMHO that would simplify the whole process and we would get rid of all this useless threads and meaningless opinions of people who don̢۪t know what they are saying or why they are saying it
(hope there is some sense of humour out there)
|
|
|
|
07/20/2006 06:15:05 AM · #50 |
| We could have an electoral college, so that the palpably ignorant masses could apply their small wits to the election of a person whose judgement they respect, in order that a committee of such elected people could make the ultimate decision of choosing one who would be able to cope with the intellectual demands of grading a picture. |
|
