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 06/07/2006 02:15:09 PM · #51
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by TomFoolery:
Well then should I start another thread asking those who want to participate to show their original image and allow those of us that want to use that for voting can do so...and people who don't want to see it don't have to look. Would that be bad...make people angry. Well, with this many people I guess you will always make people angry...so I guess I'm saying who would want to see that?


Many folks hold the anonymity of the voting process as sacred, so there is a faction that will be upset by this. But then I am sure there are some voters that try and find the original to compare - i mean, to meet the challenge you have to shoot the same subject using the comments from the original...unless it's checked it's easy to cheat.


Hell, run it by SC and then put a spoiler warning in the title if they approve it so those so inclined can avert their eyes.


It's not that simple: those who post their originals to such a thread will be those who actually follow the forums closely. The majority of entrants in the challenge probably do not, and they will be left on the outside looking in, so to speak, if such a thread develops. Not even to MENTION the complete destruction of anonymity involved for those who opt in...

R.
 06/07/2006 02:15:24 PM · #52
I just sent it to SC...we'll see what they say...don't really want to get suspended or anything...hahah.

Clint
 06/07/2006 02:28:53 PM · #53
Listen, any sense of anonymity is completely lost in this challenge. We are all big enough to get over the requirement for anonymity. Just posting your score in the scores thread reduces your anonymity. I am one of the people going back and looking at originals when I can. I did it backwards, by taking people who posted their scores and finding a shot in their profile which matched a shot in the challenge. It was usually easy; there were a few people I couldn't decipher.

I think posting a thread where we can post our original thumbs is just as fine as someone saying, "My shot was in the My Corner of the World II challenge" (which is true in my case). All anonymity is lost right there since you know which shot is mine just by looking.

If that thread gets posted, I'd be happy to post my thumb as I didn't refer to the challenge in my title.

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 14:31:02.
 06/07/2006 02:31:44 PM · #54
The site council has been made aware of the situation and are weighing the pros and cons. We'll be back with you sometime (give a bit, people are asleep, at work, and what not).
 06/07/2006 02:33:52 PM · #55
I just caught up to this here in the thread ... if it's not too late, I'd suggest not making that thread for now, but save it for the post-vote discussion.

I think it comes under the rule of not "discussing specific entries during the voting."

You've (among you all) already posted instructions as to how anyone can easily search for a similarly-named previous entry -- I think that's enough of a hint for now.

That's one opinion ... : )
 06/07/2006 02:43:10 PM · #56
Originally posted by karmat:
The site council has been made aware of the situation and are weighing the pros and cons. We'll be back with you sometime (give a bit, people are asleep, at work, and what not).


Excuse me, I am still awake. It's not my nap time till 4! LOL And pleas don't accuse me of working, that rally stings. What not...yeah, that's closer. Wait..web cam is off, so yeah, what not.

I have no problem posting my original - one commenter already recognized it. If I followed the rules it should not be hard to figure it out. The only repercussions would be if those that hate me vote it down once they know who it is - and I'll get some troll votes anyway, we all do. As for favoritism - I doubt i'll benefit from any of that. Someone from iceland or new zealand will will anyway LOL.

And to those that don't peruse the forums and feel left out...well, it's their choice, and as I stated above, I doubt it will affect anyone's scores that much.

It may bring up some discussion on what qualifies as a DQ or not as it pretains to the special rules of this challenge - and that can be both good and bad.

So let the fur fly. It might even keep me awake. ;)
 06/07/2006 02:44:27 PM · #57
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by karmat:
The site council has been made aware of the situation and are weighing the pros and cons. We'll be back with you sometime (give a bit, people are asleep, at work, and what not).


Excuse me, I am still awake. It's not my nap time till 4! LOL And pleas don't accuse me of working, that rally stings. What not...yeah, that's closer. Wait..web cam is off, so yeah, what not.



um, i was referring to SC, and tryign to explain why an answer was being given immediately.
 06/07/2006 02:51:16 PM · #58
The "final word" is to please hold off on posting thumbnails or links to your "original entries" until after the voting closes.

We'll try to address the problems which have been pointed out in any future, similar challenges.
 06/07/2006 03:14:26 PM · #59
The SC already has an extra burden in determining when the special rule is violated. Let's not add to the confusion by making them look into accusations of violating the rule about discussing current entries. I suppose they could even hide this entire thread until after voting.

I think there may be some entrants who feel they will fare better with the voters if their Take Two shots are not directly compared to the original model as well as those who feel they will benefit from a lack of anonymity. To me the bottom line is that if you were expected to do the comparisons while voting, it would have been so stated, and facilatated by something easier than memory or googleing.

This would be my approach: Enter as if it were a fairly restrictive themed challenge, more restrictive than usual. Vote as if it were a free study. After voting enjoy comparing newer versions with the first tries to see who improved a little and who improved a lot; and if you can't find the original, assist the SC in applying the special rule by requesting validations after voting.

This doesn't need to be an issue that divides the community.
06/07/2006 03:26:02 PM · #60
i like your way of looking at it :)

Originally posted by coolhar:
The SC already has an extra burden in determining when the special rule is violated. Let's not add to the confusion by making them look into accusations of violating the rule about discussing current entries. I suppose they could even hide this entire thread until after voting.

I think there may be some entrants who feel they will fare better with the voters if their Take Two shots are not directly compared to the original model as well as those who feel they will benefit from a lack of anonymity. To me the bottom line is that if you were expected to do the comparisons while voting, it would have been so stated, and facilatated by something easier than memory or googleing.

This would be my approach: Enter as if it were a fairly restrictive themed challenge, more restrictive than usual. Vote as if it were a free study. After voting enjoy comparing newer versions with the first tries to see who improved a little and who improved a lot; and if you can't find the original, assist the SC in applying the special rule by requesting validations after voting.

This doesn't need to be an issue that divides the community.

06/07/2006 03:32:29 PM · #61
Originally posted by coolhar:
This doesn't need to be an issue that divides the community.


I certainly hope the community isn't divided. I still like that Bear person.
 06/07/2006 03:35:33 PM · #62
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The "final word" is to please hold off on posting thumbnails or links to your "original entries" until after the voting closes.

We'll try to address the problems which have been pointed out in any future, similar challenges.


Good call.
 06/07/2006 03:51:18 PM · #63
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by coolhar:
This doesn't need to be an issue that divides the community.


I certainly hope the community isn't divided. I still like that Bear person.


As well you ought to, since I'm so old I'm practically posthumous myself :-)

R.
 06/07/2006 04:06:32 PM · #64
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Look, here's the crux of the matter as far as I'm concerned:

Assume that "everyone" knows that your entry in this challenge is a remake of your entry in the "Texture" challenge. Assume that most of the comments you received in the original challenge told you TWO things; first, that it was a good shot but that it barely met the challenge, and second, that the shot could have been improved if you had dropped down on your stomach and shot from a much lower angle.

So for THIS challenge, you take a MUCH better picture, working from down on your stomach. A potential free-study ribbon winner, in fact.

Should this "remake" be judged on how well it meets the topic of the ORIGINAL challenge?

I say, emphatically not!

R.


I agree with that. The remake is entered in a different challenge so no the original topic shouldn't apply. What should apply (IMO) is how well they improved the shot because that's what this challenge was about. Of course the prettiest images will probably win but that's just the result of mass appeal which will never go away however to be helpful to the photographer I think it's only fair to them to actually judge their work by how they improved.

Btw, it's not a case of awarding improvement over achievement because what has the 6.5 scoring image achieved by scoring a 7.2 in the retake? Nothing except probably fixed a few editing mistakes that held it back a bit. I'd hardly call that an achievement. The achievement was when he/she originally discovered the shot, the angle, the lighting, the appeal, etc. None of that happens here in the retake unless they took a completely different shot in which case it's pretty much grounds for DNMC, IMO. As far as I'm concern so this challenge is just about one thing, improvement.

Earlier you posed a question should an image that went from a 4 to a 6 ribbon over one that went from a 6 to a 7? Well that all depends on the image. There are images that score in the 5.5 range that I would take any day of the week over many that score 7+. But that's neither here nor there because the masses will still vote the way they do. And let me add the TOP photographers know this going in so what happens? They reshoot images they know will do better in a free study vs the stricter challenge they original submitted. That to me is not trying to meet the topic which is about improving your image. However, if they take that 6.5 image and turn it into something incredible scoring over an 8 then by all means award them a ribbon or two. My point is the higher scoring images don't have much improvement room to begin with so they shouldn't be reshot in the first place.

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 16:10:24.
 06/07/2006 04:30:10 PM · #65
Originally posted by yanko:
Btw, it's not a case of awarding improvement over achievement because what has the 6.5 scoring image achieved by scoring a 7.2 in the retake? Nothing except probably fixed a few editing mistakes that held it back a bit.


I disagree with this. Once you hit a 6.5 image, each additional tenth is an uphill battle. A 7.0 is probably five times as rare as a 6.5 score. On the other hand, a 5.5 score is not likely much rarer than a 5.0. So trying to improve the score of a 6 image may be a bigger task than improving another. Sure the changes are small, but you also run the risk of making changes which lower the score. Knowing what to change and what to keep is where the skill comes in.
 06/07/2006 04:59:10 PM · #66
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Btw, it's not a case of awarding improvement over achievement because what has the 6.5 scoring image achieved by scoring a 7.2 in the retake? Nothing except probably fixed a few editing mistakes that held it back a bit.


I disagree with this. Once you hit a 6.5 image, each additional tenth is an uphill battle. A 7.0 is probably five times as rare as a 6.5 score. On the other hand, a 5.5 score is not likely much rarer than a 5.0. So trying to improve the score of a 6 image may be a bigger task than improving another. Sure the changes are small, but you also run the risk of making changes which lower the score. Knowing what to change and what to keep is where the skill comes in.


I think we are talking about two different things here. You are talking about the difficulties of improving your score at DPC and I'm talking about improving your image in general. The two often go hand in hand but not always. As I mentioned in my post there are images that I would rather see hanging on my wall that scored in the 5-6 range over many images that score much higher. There are a lot of biases at DPC which hold certain styles back or certain subjects back, while overvaluing others. In general I agree it's harder to inch higher as your score gets higher but that's a separate skill that I'm not really talking about here and not one I am using to judge these photos. Although I do offer suggestions on how to improve your score just for DPC from time to time but that's not the most important thing, IMO.

Edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 17:04:07.
 06/07/2006 06:41:18 PM · #67
Why don't we just post the two entries side by side AFTER the voting is over. Then we all can see how we all did. I vote yes!
 06/07/2006 06:42:58 PM · #68
Originally posted by Bosborne:
Why don't we just post the two entries side by side AFTER the voting is over. Then we all can see how we all did. I vote yes!


I plan to do just that, with an explanation for why I chose the image I did to reshoot.

R.
 06/07/2006 07:16:20 PM · #69
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Bosborne:
Why don't we just post the two entries side by side AFTER the voting is over. Then we all can see how we all did. I vote yes!


I plan to do just that, with an explanation for why I chose the image I did to reshoot.

R.


hmmm i wonder which one is Robert's :P
 06/07/2006 08:39:04 PM · #70
Originally posted by Rikki:

hmmm i wonder which one is Robert's :P


You'll never guess :-)

R.
 06/07/2006 10:51:12 PM · #71
I thought this challenge was rather clear in it's explanation.

Pick one of your own (non-ribbon winning) past entries and improve upon it based on the comments you received.
Extra Rules: Your entry must be taken this week and be a reshoot of one of your own entries.

That extra rule narrowed down the choice for picking an improvable oldie, because most of the entries ever made, are momento's, one time shots that can't be shoot again ever, because the circomstances, light etc. etc. just aren't there anymore.

In my humble opinion it should've been far better if the description of this challenge had read: take the original of an oldie, improve it based on the comments you've got and place both in a diptych so voters will be able to see both.
That way this challenge at least would've made sense.

As soon as I read the 'opinion' thread before voting started, in which the term 'free study' was often used, I decided not to vote this challenge, because I had nothing to go on or fall back to. How would I know if somebody reshot an oldie and tried to improve it.

I know that some say that a photo should stand on it's own. I agree to that, but then, what's the purpose of giving subjects/topics and rules to challenges (if you know what I mean, my English vocabulary lacks here), then all challenges can, in fact, be looked upon as 'free studies'.

What use is it to show 'oldies' after voting has finished. You can't go back to up or down one if it appears you gave too much or too little credit and would've given someone a higher or lower score if you had seen the original entry earlier.

I think the purpose (and fun) of challenges is to try to make a good shot within the given limitations and those limitations are giving us a helping hand to judge and vote on the entries.

I miss that helping hand in this challenge and therefor I decided not to vote and if I could've withdraw my entry without getting DQed, I would've done so.

Anyway that's what I think and I'm with Yanko when he says:
As I mentioned in my post there are images that I would rather see hanging on my wall that scored in the 5-6 range over many images that score much higher.

edit: typo

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 22:54:15.
 06/08/2006 03:36:39 PM · #72
Well I think I just titled the name of this thread wrongâ€Â¦because I never thought that we should use the challenge description from the first image with the secondâ€Â¦just a quick name for the thread I came up with to make it a tad easier to find the originals to compare while still able to voteâ€Â¦but now that SC has said we should wait till after voting then that’s what I’ll do.

Clint

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