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 06/07/2006 01:00:28 PM · #26
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Should images be able to stand on their own? Sure. But certain themes lend themselves to more wows and pretties than others. I'm betting that a lot of shots that were met with DNMCs in previous challenges are soaring here, while others that are vast improvements in more humdrum topics are suffering, and that is a result of the challenge's limitations, not of the photos themselves.


Well, that's up to the photographer in the end, isn't it? Anyone who entered this challenge with a remake of a so-so image from a humdrum topic has to have known he's be limiting himself in the scoring, surely? Like any other challenge, it's going to take a strong, dramatic image to win a ribbon in this one... That part hasn't changed.

R.
 06/07/2006 01:07:57 PM · #27
Look, here's the crux of the matter as far as I'm concerned:

Assume that "everyone" knows that your entry in this challenge is a remake of your entry in the "Texture" challenge. Assume that most of the comments you received in the original challenge told you TWO things; first, that it was a good shot but that it barely met the challenge, and second, that the shot could have been improved if you had dropped down on your stomach and shot from a much lower angle.

So for THIS challenge, you take a MUCH better picture, working from down on your stomach. A potential free-study ribbon winner, in fact.

Should this "remake" be judged on how well it meets the topic of the ORIGINAL challenge?

I say, emphatically not!

R.
 06/07/2006 01:08:24 PM · #28
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Well, that's up to the photographer in the end, isn't it? Anyone who entered this challenge with a remake of a so-so image from a humdrum topic has to have known he's be limiting himself in the scoring, surely? Like any other challenge, it's going to take a strong, dramatic image to win a ribbon in this one... That part hasn't changed.

R.

I agree with this whole heartedly. Improving a bad or boring idea technically still leaves you with a bad or boring idea. That wont win ribbons or score high.

Edit - and full agreement on your above statement as well.

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 13:09:31.
 06/07/2006 01:09:17 PM · #29
Originally posted by jenesis:
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
Just the fact that this was an advanced editing challenge was a huge constraint removed from any original shots that were limited to basic editing. (A huge plus in my case).


That's another thing that's made voting on this interesting. Being able to see what a difference can be made in advanced as opposed to basic editing.
I'm not sure that it's valid to assume that a final product is going to be better just because it is subject to less restrictive rules about editing. That would be the equivilant to saying that all photos need things that are barred under our Basic rules.

I feel that, in most cases, an image that can show well without the benefit of Advanced editing is the better photograph.

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 13:25:19.
 06/07/2006 01:11:31 PM · #30
Originally posted by TomFoolery:
like I said earlier, has things wrong with it that I think I have corrected. If you find my original and my TT entry and find it not better let me know...cause that's what I want to hear, so I can get better.


I think I'll vote tonight with this idea and this thread in mind- I am really enjoying finding some of the originals and seeing the differences. But Bear is right, in the end it will still be the strongest image that will ribbon. (...no matter if it has improved or not!)
 06/07/2006 01:12:04 PM · #31
Originally posted by coolhar:
I'm not sure that it's valid to assume that a final product is going to be better just because it is subject to less restrictive rules about editing. That would be the equivilant to saying that all photos need things that are barred under our Basic rules.

I feel that, in most cases, an image that can show well without the benefit of Advanced editing is the better photograph.

I can say in my case the removal of basic editing rules allowed me to end up with a better shot than my original. I didnt do anything radical but was allowed to fix some minor issues that came with my model that were not fixable in basic editing or on site. Now the editing rules were not the only thing that allowed me a better shot but it helped in the fine tuning and smaller details.
 06/07/2006 01:13:22 PM · #32
itwould have been better if the search photo option worked for voting :( or even better they were posted side by side. But i'm very happy with this it has given me a chance to see how far i've come in a short space of time giving a much needed ego boost :)

In the future i would like to see the chance for people to re-shoot other peoples photos of upto a point higher the photographers avg.

Would i get hunted down and killed / maimed if i posted a link to my original photo? :)
 06/07/2006 01:16:20 PM · #33
"With 500 challenges under our belts, let's see what we've learned! Pick one of your own (non-ribbon winning) past entries and improve upon it based on the comments you received"

I went back to see where I had alot of good advise on a challenge and entered it according to the challenge above statement. I guess I'm to literal. Most of the 42 comments I received stated that the lettering on my "Jewelry Advertisement" challenge sucked, so I entered it again with better lettering. DQ for adding lettering. So. the SC determined that true past entries are not to be used in the same way of the challenge before, i.e. lettering in an advertising or poster challenge. So, is this challenge 100% valid? or just a free shot.
 06/07/2006 01:16:22 PM · #34
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by jenesis:
Originally posted by timfythetoo:

Just the fact that this was an advanced editing challenge was a huge constraint removed from any original shots that were limited to basic editing. (A huge plus in my case).


That's another thing that's made voting on this interesting. Being able to see what a difference can be made in advanced as opposed to basic editing.
I'm not sure that it's valid to assume that a final product is going to be better just because it is subject to less restrictive rules about editing. That would be the equivilant to saying that all photos need things that are barred under our Basic rules.

I feel that, in most cases, an image that can show well without the benefit of Advanced editing is the better photograph.


For the record, I'm not the one that brought up advanced editing; my cut-line does not belong within the above quote. this has now been fixed in the original and in the quotes from the original, so I fixed it above as well :-)

However, up to a point, I'm in agreement with you there, Harvey. Many of my entries in advanced editing challenges would have passed muster in basic editing challenges, or COULD have if I wanted them to. Issues of "cloning out imperfections" aside, most of what I do in advanced editing is simplified by the looser editing rules, but it could have been done under basic rules by expending more effort in PP.

An example would be using other-than-normal blending modes in contrast masking; legal in advanced, and a real time saver, but similar results can also be attained a lot of the time by very careful work in curves and levels.

Robt.

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 13:38:07.
 06/07/2006 01:18:17 PM · #35
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by jenesis:
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
Just the fact that this was an advanced editing challenge was a huge constraint removed from any original shots that were limited to basic editing. (A huge plus in my case).


That's another thing that's made voting on this interesting. Being able to see what a difference can be made in advanced as opposed to basic editing.
I'm not sure that it's valid to assume that a final product is going to be better just because it is subject to less restrictive rules about editing. That would be the equivilant to saying that all photos need things that are barred under our Basic rules.

I feel that, in most cases, an image that can show well without the benefit of Advanced editing is the better photograph.


Perhaps your right on that, I'd love to be one of those photographers that can have a beautiful image straight out of the camera (would save me a lot of time and frustration) :-) Sadly, I'm not at that point yet. Advanced editing does seem to help add some artistic touches that may not be able to be accomplished naturally. Whether this goes against the Photo Vs. Digital Art argument is a different subject all together. But there are subtle things that can be done in advanced that can truly help a photo be more appealing to the viewer. Again, just my opinion.

I'm waiting for the day when I can pull off an amazing photo straight out of the camera (minor adjustments aside). I know it can and has been done and someday I hope I can do it too. :)

Edit to say: Sorry for the bad quote edit Bear, My bad. It's been corrected :)

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 13:36:34.
 06/07/2006 01:23:14 PM · #36
I was just looking at this very thing this morning...my first challenge was "Framing"


and today we get "Framing II", sure hope I can show what I've learned.

06/07/2006 01:30:26 PM · #37
I apologize Robert. I'm sorry for the misleading manner in which your nick appeared in my post. I have corrected it. Please see that it was only a careless repetition of a previous error.


06/07/2006 01:35:52 PM · #38
Originally posted by coolhar:
I apologize Robert. I'm sorry for the misleading manner in which your nick appeared in my post. I have corrected it. Please see that it was only a careless repetition of a previous error.


Oh sure, no problem. I just wanted to make that clear for OTHERS who might read the thread...

R.
 06/07/2006 01:53:40 PM · #39
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Should images be able to stand on their own? Sure. But certain themes lend themselves to more wows and pretties than others. I'm betting that a lot of shots that were met with DNMCs in previous challenges are soaring here, while others that are vast improvements in more humdrum topics are suffering, and that is a result of the challenge's limitations, not of the photos themselves.


Well, that's up to the photographer in the end, isn't it? Anyone who entered this challenge with a remake of a so-so image from a humdrum topic has to have known he's be limiting himself in the scoring, surely? Like any other challenge, it's going to take a strong, dramatic image to win a ribbon in this one... That part hasn't changed.

R.


So then that really limits the ribbons to people with a deep field from which to choose, doesn't it? There were only a few images I in my portfolio that I could choose from - the rest are lost to moments long passed. Silly me, I chose to improve one that needed improving, like the challenge description more or less instructed me to do. :P
 06/07/2006 01:58:09 PM · #40
To put it another way, I consider this an "improvement" challenge. And as always, how much the photo meets the challenge is part of the score. That's why I'd like to have been able to see the original. In most cases, I cannot figure out what the original is, so I just judge the picture, which is unfortunate. the challenge description should have been more specific in either direction: do not consider the original or definitely consider the original and put the id in your title.
 06/07/2006 02:01:24 PM · #41
Originally posted by posthumous:
...the challenge description should have been more specific in either direction: do not consider the original or definitely consider the original and put the id in your title.


It does seem that many recent challenges have ended with DPCers in two distinctly different camps!

edit for sp

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 14:01:57.
 06/07/2006 02:02:18 PM · #42
I submitted an image that, according to the score of the first challenge, could be improved. Did I think it needed to be improved? No. I like the original much more than the retake. But, the voters seem to think it is much improved. The comments really didn't give me much to go on improvement wise - most were positive. I also chose an image in my personal bottom 50%. I think the image stands on its own outside the challenge.

So, while I may have more to choose from I still chose to improve something the voters thought could be improved.
 06/07/2006 02:03:48 PM · #43
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
So then that really limits the ribbons to people with a deep field from which to choose, doesn't it? There were only a few images I in my portfolio that I could choose from - the rest are lost to moments long passed. Silly me, I chose to improve one that needed improving, like the challenge description more or less instructed me to do. :P


Oh, that's been explicit from the beginning; the advantage in this challenge has always been on the side of the people who have a good pool of previous entries from which to choose.

As for "needed improving", according to my scores ALL my pictures need improving; I haven't scored as high as 7.5 out of 10 yet ;-) I don't mean to be facetious, but I think it's a valid point. NOTHING is beyond improving, really, and I'm not going to make a value judgment on whether someone who chooses to try to "perfect" an already-excellent image is somehow taking the easy way out over someone who tries to make "presentable" a truly mediocre original, to name the two extremes.

Personally, I'm more interested in trying to add the missing element to a shot that fell just short than I am in trying to somehow rescue one of my many lapses in judgment over the last 150 or so challenges :-)

R.

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 14:06:03.
 06/07/2006 02:04:10 PM · #44
Not all the images are titled the same but googling with "site:dpchallenge.com 'name of title'" is a quick way to locate the ones that are. Well, quicker than looking through 500 past challenges, that is.
 06/07/2006 02:06:01 PM · #45
Well then should I start another thread asking those who want to participate to show their original image and allow those of us that want to use that for voting can do so...and people who don't want to see it don't have to look. Would that be bad...make people angry. Well, with this many people I guess you will always make people angry...so I guess I'm saying who would want to see that?
06/07/2006 02:07:44 PM · #46
My original was in the Silence challenge. It hit an emotional cord there and probably did better beacuse of that then on it's pure photographic merits.

I was thinking of reshooting it - new equipment, knowledge, etc. - and this challenge gave me a reason to do it. The pose is not perfect, but the other recomendations from teh comments i used and this is a much better image in many ways.

However, it lacks the same emotional connection the original had - inevitable due to the nature of this challenge - it's nearly a freee study.

There was one element i wanted to make the image truly moving, but getting one willing model is tough enough - getting 3 or 4 more is nealry impossible.

My original did a 6.017 and this one is at 5.962 give or take so that's fine by me. The original finished in the top 23%...i doubt this one will finish that well.
 06/07/2006 02:08:53 PM · #47
Originally posted by TomFoolery:
Well then should I start another thread asking those who want to participate to show their original image and allow those of us that want to use that for voting can do so...and people who don't want to see it don't have to look. Would that be bad...make people angry. Well, with this many people I guess you will always make people angry...so I guess I'm saying who would want to see that?


I would probably look if it existed (I don't have an entry) but I'd prefer it be approved by the SC before it happened.
 06/07/2006 02:09:14 PM · #48
Originally posted by TomFoolery:
Well then should I start another thread asking those who want to participate to show their original image and allow those of us that want to use that for voting can do so...and people who don't want to see it don't have to look. Would that be bad...make people angry. Well, with this many people I guess you will always make people angry...so I guess I'm saying who would want to see that?


Many folks hold the anonymity of the voting process as sacred, so there is a faction that will be upset by this. But then I am sure there are some voters that try and find the original to compare - i mean, to meet the challenge you have to shoot the same subject using the comments from the original...unless it's checked it's easy to cheat.
 06/07/2006 02:11:43 PM · #49
All I did was rename my entry the exact name and challenge before and added Take Two (I think this was asked about in a forum and suggested BEFORE any photos were submitted) in case anyone wanted to go back and see the original. I have noticed that most have done that too. I have recognized many photos that were definitely upgraded and therefore voted ''up''. So, I'm kind of with the majority: Vote on the photo that looks improved whether you've seen it before or not. I'm sure anyone that hangs our here enough (and I'm sure that would be most of us), will have seen most of the take two photos before anyway.
Just my 2¢ worth...

Message edited by author 2006-06-07 14:14:59.
 06/07/2006 02:12:12 PM · #50
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by TomFoolery:
Well then should I start another thread asking those who want to participate to show their original image and allow those of us that want to use that for voting can do so...and people who don't want to see it don't have to look. Would that be bad...make people angry. Well, with this many people I guess you will always make people angry...so I guess I'm saying who would want to see that?


Many folks hold the anonymity of the voting process as sacred, so there is a faction that will be upset by this. But then I am sure there are some voters that try and find the original to compare - i mean, to meet the challenge you have to shoot the same subject using the comments from the original...unless it's checked it's easy to cheat.


Hell, run it by SC and then put a spoiler warning in the title if they approve it so those so inclined can avert their eyes.
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