Protecting Children - DPChallenge Forums

05/29/2006 12:40:00 AM · #101

Originally posted by amandalore:

uhm, not that I believe in caning one way or the other, but I'm pretty sure that those countries have way less crime.... I don't believe in torture, but going to prison where now you are the vulnerable one, I don't think is cruel and unusual.

Also, when the constitution was formed, it was absolutely legal and accepted to hang someone for horse stealing, not to mention the whole town watched. That would be like death penalty for grand theft auto nowadays.

But the death penalty (in one form or another) has almost always been a component of the American legal system. There was a brief moratorium during the 70's, but that was more because the methodology of sentancing (who gets it, and for what crime) was judged cruel and unusual, not the penality itself.

I will grant you that crime in Singapore is said to be "considerably less" than in the US. But, do the ends justify the means?

05/29/2006 12:41:43 AM · #102

I have always liked that saying...You reap what you sow.
Most child molesters are not put in with the general population in prison anyway. The little saying above would prove worthy if they were, would that be cruel and unusual? To me...just fair. But then they would probably be murdered before anything like that would happen anyway.

05/29/2006 12:42:07 AM · #103

Originally posted by mo5988:

Our society is finally becoming more accepting of gays and lesbians, and we are realizing that this is not a choice that they make, but instead a preference that they are born with. in my view, consenting sexual acts between people of the same sex and similar age are moral. the problem is that society is never going to see sexual acts between an adult and a child, consenting or not, moral, because children are not usually mature enough to make wise decisions for themselves. i really think that pedophiles are born with this sexual orientation, and we need to accept them like we are beginning to accept gays and lesbians. this doesn't include allowing them to engage in sexual acts with children, but do we really have the right to discriminate against them?

That is a very lucid argument, and I must say that I agree totally with it.

05/29/2006 12:55:58 AM · #104

mo5988, I think (and hope) you are talking about teens and not small children. Teens, I could see having the decision making skills to deal with something like that, or maybe not be "hurt" by such things. But children, no. Most children "consent" to sexual activity because they trust the adult and don't see it as harmful, they also "like" the attention... however, it traumatizes them and then they have problems throughout their whole life, whether they admit it to themselves/others or not.

and livitup, I see what you're saying, I just figured I'd bring it up

05/29/2006 12:55:58 AM · #105

SOmething has gone haywire here. Being born with an orientation to have sex with children? I don't think so...there is something deeply disturbing about that and if this is the next big argument, is beastiality next? " I was born that way." I think not. Something is definitely wrong mentally with these people. And I don't think shoving pills down people will fix something like that (since this seems to be what everyone thinks is the answer-ie: starting a 5 year old on ADD meds, because you don't have the time or willingness to parent your child-and, yes, I have seen it. A woman claimed that her 2 year old son threatened her with a steak knife, so she brought him to the ER...3 years later they want to start meds, and it is an obvious parenting problem) Alot of these problems COULD be helped with a little parenting, which it seems like our society is going away from and let the "authorities" and medical people deal with it.

edit: They could be helped, but alot of this is so deep in them, I don't think it will, in any way.
I do know a RN I worked with from Phoenix that has to register when she is doing a travellling job in any state. She was peeing behind a car in AZ and got caught by the cops, and apparently that is a "felony" that you have to register for as a sex offender in AZ...so it includes all states. Scary huh?

Message edited by author 2006-05-29 01:00:47.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

05/29/2006 12:57:54 AM · #106

yes! parenting is the answer! society as a whole keeps trying to displace the blame, and only parents can stop it

klstover

Panasonic DMC-FZ8

05/29/2006 12:59:03 AM · #107

Sometimes meds like these are overperscribed, sure, but sometimes people DO legitimately need them.

amber

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

05/29/2006 01:00:18 AM · #108

Many, many child molesters were molested as children. It's a vicious cycle.

05/29/2006 01:03:20 AM · #109

Originally posted by amber:

Many, many child molesters were molested as children. It's a vicious cycle.

True...and they cycle should be broken. If you are caught and jailed, etc, then you have NO contact with children and then it slowly starts to disappear. Logically, but there are alot of abusers out there that are never caught and the cycle continues, unfortunately

HBunch

HP PhotoSmart 315

05/29/2006 01:03:45 AM · #110

yeah, I think this strayed from discussion to rant...sorry guys, gotta move it.

05/29/2006 01:04:40 AM · #111

but the percentage of people who legitimately need meds vs the percentage of people who are convinced by the pharmaceutical companies that they need them is way out of proportion. Almost always, counseling, hard mental work and determination, acceptance of responsibility and solid parenting with effective discipline will do the trick (adults included, lol) Almost always, meds are overproscribed

you should have seen the field day psychiatrists had with me, when really, I was being a typical moody, dramatic teenager, and the potential harm that I'm so lucky to have avoided that they never told me about, happens all the time, they are so quick to prescribe this crap and then you're stuck with seizures, etc. for the rest of your life

05/29/2006 01:06:01 AM · #112

Originally posted by amber:

Many, many child molesters were molested as children. It's a vicious cycle.

almost all of them... but not all molested children grow up to be child molesters

klstover

Panasonic DMC-FZ8

05/29/2006 01:10:14 AM · #113

Originally posted by amandalore:

Almost always, counseling, hard mental work and determination, acceptance of responsibility and solid parenting with effective discipline will do the trick (adults included, lol)

I am VERY much not of the opinion that meds alone will do it. I think that people DO need to put in the hard mental work. If you're only relying on a medicine, what's to say that it will not stop working, or you'll lose your job and the ability to pay for the med? And medicines won't make you a better person, really - that takes the determination you mentioned. But I do also think that sometimes, the ability to put in the hard work is kind of given a jump start when you are able to have a little help from a medicine. Sometimes without it, you're so busy trying to just stay afloat that you're not able to make any real progress.

But this is so off topic! Sorry.

robshookphoto

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 28mm f/1.8 USM

05/29/2006 01:13:28 AM · #114

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

These people are only born with the preference. i am not saying that they are born with the idea that it is ok to have sex with children, but merely that they are born wanting to. if you think about it, how is it really different that they have an attraction to children? i know many homosexuals, and they all tell me that it was not a choice they made, but rather that they realized that they were not attracted to the other sex. i agree wit you that the morality issues (like having sex with children) could be helped by having a better upbringing in which they are taught what is wrong and what is right, but parenting is not going to destroy a feeling that someone is born with. yes, if someone assualts a child, let the authorities deal with it. all i'm saying is that if someone is a pedophile, but their conscience is intact, let tem be a person, and just ignore, or live with the fact, that they are more attracted to children than to adults. if you see this as disturbing, then i don't think that you are accepting enough of people who just happen to be different.

Clarification - The definition of Pedophile is not the act, but merely the sexual preference.
dictionary.com
Wikipedia
Princeton definitions
Administration for Children and Families

Message edited by author 2006-05-29 01:17:20.

05/29/2006 01:18:27 AM · #115

yeah, I think this whole thread got off topic...

I agree that meds can help and give a jump start, but all too often, people are lazy in a lot of senses of the word, and rely on it like a miracle or something. Also, people should try other things first, like changing their diet, or adding vitamins like B to their daily intake, etc., or discipline or stimulate/motivate their hyperactive children

originally, for this thread, I don't think that posting pics of a 14 y/o in her bikini with her and her guardian's permission is putting her at risk.

As to rants and arguments like some that we see here, I just want to do a little off topic survey... :)

how many of you like my bumper sticker idea: "bumper stickers don't change opinions, they change the value of your car" ?

(I think the concept applies a little here...)

05/29/2006 01:21:25 AM · #116

There are also people who like to torture animals, not ok.

Gays and lesbians are people who consent to have sex with each other. small children do not consent to having sex, in the context that we are speaking of, or in a healthy way. that's like saying women who stay with abusive men are consenting to such treatment.

edit to add: please do not compare homosexuals to pedofiles, I think the mere fact that most pedofiles were molested as children is proof that they are not born that way, they are traumatized that way.

Message edited by author 2006-05-29 01:25:13.

05/29/2006 01:25:44 AM · #117

Originally posted by mo5988:

if you see this as disturbing, then i don't think that you are accepting enough of people who just happen to be different.

Yes it is disturbing, and you are right...I am not accepting enough of people who are different (in this way), COme work with me a good rowdy weekend in the ER and you will get a good education on the types of people and the things they do to each other (and children), and we can see how accepting you can be of them.
Lots of life out there that alot of people don't ever get a glimpse of. I have, and I don't have to accept any of it as right, when it is obviously wrong.

robshookphoto

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 28mm f/1.8 USM

05/29/2006 01:25:48 AM · #118

Originally posted by amandalore:

no. gays and lesbians are people who want to have sex with each other. There is a difference. is the fact that you want to do something bad wrong? even if you don't do it? yes, if you do it, then it is wrong. it is the responsibility of whoever raised you to tell you that it is wrong. I think that we should be able to live with people, and not judge them, as long as they don't do anything wrong. shouldn't people be judged by their actions instead of their ideas?

05/29/2006 01:27:51 AM · #119

Ideas TURN INTO ACTION, after awhile. Read up on serial killers and their lives.
Ward Churchill has alot of ideas...I don't want to see them become action, so he is being judged on those ideas.

Message edited by author 2006-05-29 01:29:13.

05/29/2006 01:28:02 AM · #120

People, please, I beg of you, seperate your facts from your opinions.

I realized that 99% of my frustration with this thread* is people stating opinions as fact.

Unless you either are a social worker, doctor, judge, or sex offender (and thus speaking from primary experience), or you have done research on the statement you are making, it's not a fact.

I am always very careful to research all my facts and make sure I am arguing accurate points before I start typing. Please consider this before you type statements making statements about entire groups of people, societies, or such.

Please and thank you.

---A

*99% figure based on interviews, clinical research, and drug trials.

robshookphoto

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 28mm f/1.8 USM

05/29/2006 01:28:34 AM · #121

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Originally posted by mo5988:
if you see this as disturbing, then i don't think that you are accepting enough of people who just happen to be different.

Yes it is disturbing, and you are right...I am not accepting enough of people who are different (in this way), COme work with me a good rowdy weekend in the ER and you will get a good education on the types of people and the things they do to each other (and children), and we can see how accepting you can be of them.
Lots of life out there that alot of people don't ever get a glimpse of. I have, and I don't have to accept any of it as right, when it is obviously wrong.

again...
i agree with you completely that it is wrong to carry out these actions. BUT, if someone wants to do it, but doesn't, and has enough of a sense of morality not to, then i don't think we should judge them.

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Ideas TURN INTO ACTION, after awhile. Read up on serial killers and their lives.

When you get very, very angry, or you have a high emotion, do you ever want to do something, even for a moment, that you know is wrong? i know that you have experienced this before. yet, you don't do it, because YOU KNOW that it is wrong.

Message edited by author 2006-05-29 01:38:48.

05/29/2006 01:32:34 AM · #122

Originally posted by livitup:

Unless you either are a social worker, doctor, judge, or sex offender (and thus speaking from primary experience), or you have done research on the statement you are making, it's not a fact.

I've been an ED RN for 10+ years...that count in the "eithers" above? :)
HypnoToad is hysterical

05/29/2006 01:37:23 AM · #123

Originally posted by mo5988:

Originally posted by amandalore:
There are also people who like to torture animals, not ok.

Gays and lesbians are people who consent to have sex with each other. small children do not consent to having sex, in the context that we are speaking of, or in a healthy way. that's like saying women who stay with abusive men are consenting to such treatment.

no. gays and lesbians are people who want to have sex with each other. There is a difference. is the fact that you want to do something bad wrong? even if you don't do it? yes, if you do it, then it is wrong. it is the responsibility of whoever raised you to tell you that it is wrong. I think that we should be able to live with people, and not judge them, as long as they don't do anything wrong. shouldn't people be judged by their actions instead of their ideas?

It's wrong if the act you are doing hurts someone/something else who does not want to be hurt. Pedofiles hurt children, homosexuals don't hurt each other. That's why sex with children is wrong, and also why I said that some teens might not fit that category.

05/29/2006 01:37:39 AM · #124

Originally posted by amandalore:

edit to add: please do not compare homosexuals to pedofiles, I think the mere fact that most pedofiles were molested as children is proof that they are not born that way, they are traumatized that way.

This is not medically or scientifically accepted as fact.

Originally posted by Psychiatric News:

"Certain individuals who have suffered insults to their brain engage in pedophilic behaviors," said Fabian Saleh, M.D., an assistant professor of psychiatry at the University of Massachusetts and director of research at the National Institute for the Study, Prevention, and Treatment of Sexual Trauma. "There, you can say the injury caused pedophilia in that individual... .But if we take all the individuals with pedophilia, and we wanted to look for a cause, we would have to say that, in most cases, it is unknown."

Studies are not conclusive on the issue, but the low figure seems to be 30% of "pedophiles" were sexually abused as children. The highest figure is 60% in one study.

Source: //pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/41/10/37

Message edited by author 2006-05-29 01:38:00.