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05/19/2006 04:50:25 PM · #51 |
I suggested one challenge like that not too long ago. I don't think a few blind challenges are a bad idea. Not sure how a total lack of an update button would be taken by many paid members though.
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05/19/2006 04:57:50 PM · #52 |
I'm not sure how knowing you (anybody) are getting a 3.9 or a 7.7 affects my voting. I don't know which image is getting that score, so while I might know that someone is beating me, or I am beating somebody there is nothing I can do about it. If I was going to give everybody a certain score so mine would be higher I only need to know my score (and there is a good chance all my votes would be thrown out so that would not work either.)
Edit to add: Sometimes my current challenge score tells me some technique is working or not and I might know not to enter a shot using that technique the next week.
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 16:59:33.
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05/19/2006 05:20:29 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I suggested one challenge like that not too long ago. I don't think a few blind challenges are a bad idea. Not sure how a total lack of an update button would be taken by many paid members though. |
I really like this idea. If it were an extra challenge then paid members would still have their update buttons to use on the weekly challenges. Of course, some would still complain. |
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05/19/2006 05:45:01 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand.
In your opinion, what is collaboration? Is it ok for someone else to press the shutter, and if so, under what conditions? |
I would argue that having someone else press the shutter should bring the ownership issue into question.
Since when is photography just about setup and camera configuration? How many categories require timing and "capturing a moment"? Sports, candids, slow flash sync, all come to mind.
If I setup the camera, choose the lens, take the light readings and stake out a position at a football game, but then hand the camera to a sideline photographer, who "owns" the image?
In studio and table top situations, this might be OK, but there are times when it really isn't, IMHO.
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05/28/2006 10:01:13 PM · #55 |
This is the image that prompted me to make the initial post (see below).
What made me wonder is:
1) It didn't appear that the subject of the image was holding a remote (plus it would get wet).
2) It would be tricky to press the shutter (using a timer) and get back into that position without washing off the soap suds
3) Someone else was involved to hold the shower curtain.
If you read the challenge rules (stated below), would this scenario be considered collaboration? I ask mostly because there have been times when it would have been very helpful to have someone else push the shutter button for me or to hold props, etc...if this is allowable then I'll know not to worry about it in the future.
Thanks for your time and consideration of this topic.
Barry
****** original post restated ******
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Hi. Question. I was voting and came across an image that (to me) clearly looks like it took more than one person to capture the image. I was considering requesting validation and read the following text that comes up with the validation request form.
Underlining of text added for emphasis.
We ask that you please be very descriptive. If you are unsure what is or is not allowed, please read through the Advanced Editing rules or you can ask in our forums. Your suggestion will be reviewed by the Site Council, and if necessary, appropriate action will be taken.
This is what is posted in the challenge rules.
Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand.
In your opinion, what is collaboration? Is it ok for someone else to press the shutter, and if so, under what conditions? |
****** end original post restated ****** |
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05/28/2006 10:05:11 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
If you read the challenge rules (stated below), would this scenario be considered collaboration? I ask mostly because there have been times when it would have been very helpful to have someone else push the shutter button for me or to hold props, etc...if this is allowable then I'll know not to worry about it in the future.
Thanks for your time and consideration of this topic.
Barry
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Also from the rules...
Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand.
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05/28/2006 10:24:28 PM · #57 |
| of course people can hold props for you. What do you think models do?? |
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05/28/2006 10:48:53 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by HBunch:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
If you read the challenge rules (stated below), would this scenario be considered collaboration? I ask mostly because there have been times when it would have been very helpful to have someone else push the shutter button for me or to hold props, etc...if this is allowable then I'll know not to worry about it in the future.
Thanks for your time and consideration of this topic.
Barry
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Also from the rules...
Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand. |
I mentioned that. Is there something you are trying to point out or add?
edit: put text in wrong spot (inside other's quotes)
Message edited by author 2006-05-28 22:49:40. |
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05/28/2006 10:52:23 PM · #59 |
| You seem to be answering yourself in the same post you pose the question. It looks like someone else pressed the shutter button. Okay. The rules you pasted right below that say it's okay if someone else presses the shutter button. What exactly are you asking? |
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05/28/2006 10:53:50 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
of course people can hold props for you. What do you think models do?? |
Other than show up to the shoot hungover, that's pretty much all they do... LOL
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05/28/2006 10:56:39 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I mentioned that. Is there something you are trying to point out or add?
edit: put text in wrong spot (inside other's quotes) |
No, in that same post, you said "I ask mostly because there have been times when it would have been very helpful to have someone else push the shutter button for me or to hold props, etc...if this is allowable then I'll know not to worry about it in the future.
Thanks for your time and consideration of this topic.
Barry
"
You seemed to be questioning if this was legal, so I was just drawing your attention to the part of your post that answered the question you had asked. That's all. |
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05/28/2006 11:29:05 PM · #62 |
Ok. Let me restate what I'm asking since I've muddied things with my last post.
To me, it appears that collaboration was used to take this image.
To me, it appears that someone else pushed the shutter.
Does this surprise anyone in the DPC community on this being legal? Is it legal?
The rules on collaboration are a bit murky IMO and I want to clarify what is legit and what isn't. This looked like a good example to use to discuss it.
For reference, here are the rules as currently written on this subject:
Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand.
Another train of thought regarding this is the way the text is written when you request validation of an image during a challenge. The text in the pop-up dialog box states:
(underlining of text added for emphasis)
We ask that you please be very descriptive. If you are unsure what is or is not allowed, please read through the Advanced Editing rules or you can ask in our forums. Your suggestion will be reviewed by the Site Council, and if necessary, appropriate action will be taken.
Initial feedback on this thread was that asking in the forums is NOT an option in the eyes of some SC members. Should the wording of the validation request message be changed? |
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05/28/2006 11:37:53 PM · #63 |
Why would this shot be singled out for some sort of collaborative effort?
A) Photographer sets up camera
B) Photographer instructs model (put hand on shower curtain)
C) Photographer instructs assistant to press the shutter (in this case also the model, which matters not at all)
What exactly is the issue here? The entire shot, to me, looks to be the concept of the photographer. And also looks to be well within the framework of the rules.
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05/28/2006 11:46:14 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by rich:
... What exactly is the issue here? ... |
Perhaps nothing at all. I was wondering when I saw this image in the challenge how the photographer (being the subjet for self-portrait) could have possibly taken this image without assistance. I was going to question it and then reread the rules. The rules seemed unclear to me on this subject, the instructions in the validation request message said if you were unsure to check the rules or to ask in the forums...so I did.
edit to add - Thanks for your opinion. Much appreciated.
Message edited by author 2006-05-28 23:46:58. |
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05/29/2006 12:18:25 AM · #65 |
Rule says:
You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to.
Clearly, he's unable to press the shutter, so he had someone else do it. Seems pretty clearcut to me. I would imagine many of the self portraits had someone else press the shutter, actually. It seems to me there's probably no category of image where this would happen more often than in SP.
Robt.
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05/29/2006 09:29:57 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Another train of thought regarding this is the way the text is written when you request validation of an image during a challenge. The text in the pop-up dialog box states:
(underlining of text added for emphasis)
We ask that you please be very descriptive. If you are unsure what is or is not allowed, please read through the Advanced Editing rules or you can ask in our forums. Your suggestion will be reviewed by the Site Council, and if necessary, appropriate action will be taken.
Initial feedback on this thread was that asking in the forums is NOT an option in the eyes of some SC members. Should the wording of the validation request message be changed? |
Yes, the validation message should be changed, since it would obviously violate the rule about discussing current entries if validation was requested during the voting period (when it should be).
I think that message is probably copied from the rules, where we suggest you ask about the validity of your own technique before submitting if there's a question of its DPC-legality. If a photo is submitted to the SC for validation, there should not be a public discussion on the photo until after the decision is made. |
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05/29/2006 10:07:30 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
...Clearly, he's unable to press the shutter, so he had someone else do it. Seems pretty clearcut to me. I would imagine many of the self portraits had someone else press the shutter, actually. It seems to me there's probably no category of image where this would happen more often than in SP.
Robt. |
Absolutely disagree with the "clearly, he's unable to press the shutter" statement... Having done the Self Portrait challenge for 30 days, I know it can very easily be done under any conditions with the Canon TC-80N3 Remote, which you can set to keep taking photos at regular time intervals. For example I can set it to take a shot every 20 seconds and it will keep doing it until I stop it or specify that it does it for x-number of shots. Very trivial to do self portraits without anyone touching your camera.
Edit:
Check out the photos in my 30-Day Self Portrait Challenge...ALL the shots involved only me as the photographer, including the bath tub and shower scene, thanks to the TC-80N3 remote.
Message edited by author 2006-05-29 10:13:18. |
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05/29/2006 10:24:18 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
Absolutely disagree with the "clearly, he's unable to press the shutter" statement... Having done the Self Portrait challenge for 30 days, I know it can very easily be done under any conditions with the Canon TC-80N3 Remote, which you can set to keep taking photos at regular time intervals. For example I can set it to take a shot every 20 seconds and it will keep doing it until I stop it or specify that it does it for x-number of shots. Very trivial to do self portraits without anyone touching your camera. |
The rules strive to be hardware-neutral. Maybe you can go out and by a new camera with the feature you need to render your artistic vision, but we expect there are many members who are not so financially fortunate. |
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05/29/2006 10:34:07 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by doctornick:
Absolutely disagree with the "clearly, he's unable to press the shutter" statement... Having done the Self Portrait challenge for 30 days, I know it can very easily be done under any conditions with the Canon TC-80N3 Remote, which you can set to keep taking photos at regular time intervals. For example I can set it to take a shot every 20 seconds and it will keep doing it until I stop it or specify that it does it for x-number of shots. Very trivial to do self portraits without anyone touching your camera. |
The rules strive to be hardware-neutral. Maybe you can go out and by a new camera with the feature you need to render your artistic vision, but we expect there are many members who are not so financially fortunate. |
Tomfoolery has a 10D and 20D which both work with the TC-80N3, so it means he could have done his self portrait using it without anyone pressing the shutter for him...
I was merely disagreeing with bear's statement which said "clearly, he's unable to press the shutter..." |
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05/29/2006 11:31:04 AM · #70 |
 ... ...
Once upon a time three Icelanders... Larus, Andri and Steiner... went on an all-day road trip together carting around a window frame Andri had obtained to take pictures for the window challenge. They used the same window in each of their entries. Larus and Steinar even held the window for Andri's shot. You can be certain they discussed and exchanged ideas.
Cooperation? Most definitely. Cheating? Most definitely not!
Energy wasted worrying about what is and is not legal would be better spent creatively taking pictures like Larus, Andri and Steiner.
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05/29/2006 11:38:33 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by idnic:
With self timers and locking remotes, not to mention tripods, etc... I can't imagine a situation that would require another person. Not saying their isn't one, but I can't think of any.... |
I couldn't push the shutter with my gloves on. Had my 5 year old son do it. |
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05/29/2006 12:58:08 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
Tomfoolery has a 10D and 20D which both work with the TC-80N3, so it means he could have done his self portrait using it without anyone pressing the shutter for him...
I was merely disagreeing with bear's statement which said "clearly, he's unable to press the shutter..." |
I understand your point, but I think you are taking it way too far. To suggest that one should only allow another to press the trigger when NO hardware solution exists that might be bought or rigged to make the shot... This is extreme.
Here's another example to consider: I set up a shot at night with the intention of walking a few hundred yards from the camera with a powerful, portable light and backing up to the camera during a time exposure whilst painting elements of the scene with light. I can have someone else start the shot at my signal, or I can stay at the camera and have the someone else carry the light and deploy it per my instructions during the shot.
Which of these scenarios involves "more collaboration"?
By some of the definitions of "collaboration" I am hearing here, it would not technically be legal to "direct" a model during a shot; "Okay, now raise your right arm a tad and turn your head towards me slightly... that's it... now dip your right knee a little and extend the arm further... yes, that's it... very good... now turn away slowly and on my signal toss your hair... Bingo!"
This is a collaboration between model and photographer, is it not? And those who do it with a professional model have a considerable advantage over those who use their kid sister, do they not?
When we were shooting architectural interiors we frequently had several assistants helping us set up shots. In a restaurant, say, one of them would be arranging drinks and food, another would be aligning chairs, a third would be deploying lights, all while I looked through the ground glass and directed their efforts. Is this "collaboration" as viewed through a DPC lens?
What about an elaborate "makeup" shot, with you (the photographer) photographing the results of a professional makeup artist's work on your model? Are you "collaborating" with the makeup artist?
You're out with your wife or husband on a road trip, and you've set up a landscape shot. Your partner continues down the trail a ways and you hear him/her calling out, "Honey, come here! Quickly!" and you run down the trail, around the bend, and see him/her crouching, peering through the leaves at a wildlife scene unfolding at the edge of the stream 50 yards away. You ma age to squeeze of a really nice shot. You'd have missed it without that "scouting call". Is this collaboration?
I think we get way too anal about this, frankly.
R.
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05/29/2006 01:24:54 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I think we get way too anal about this, frankly.
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I agree. 100%. This is just one BIG grey area. And the only way that we'll know what is wrong is when it happens. The learn from mistakes, "don't use your hair dryer in the shower," kind of thing.
-Robert
(no collaboration with the Robert above)
Message edited by author 2006-05-29 13:26:17. |
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05/29/2006 01:30:59 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by doctornick:
Tomfoolery has a 10D and 20D which both work with the TC-80N3, so it means he could have done his self portrait using it without anyone pressing the shutter for him...
I was merely disagreeing with bear's statement which said "clearly, he's unable to press the shutter..." |
I understand your point, but I think you are taking it way too far. To suggest that one should only allow another to press the trigger when NO hardware solution exists that might be bought or rigged to make the shot... This is extreme.
I think we get way too anal about this, frankly.
R. |
I think they were saying that he COULD have done it not that he SHOULD have bought the remote and done it himself, at least that is how I took it.
I agree with you on the last line. |
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05/29/2006 01:55:21 PM · #75 |
I'm reminded of some years ago when Tiger Woods was playing a golf tournament in the desert in Arizona; his drive wandered well off the fairway and came to rest a few feet behind a very large boulder. Now, there's a rule in golf that you may remove "loose obstructions" from the path of your shot, as long as you don't move the ball. One of the objects specifically allowed as a "loose obstruction" is a stone or rock. So Tiger enlisted the aid of several spectators and moved the damned boulder out of the way. He got away with it, too :-)
This was totally within the letter of the rules and completely outside their intended spirit. I believe they closed the loophole the next year in a rules revision.
Robt.
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