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05/19/2006 01:11:59 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
... I see no purpose to it other than to cast suspicion on a class of photos. ... |
That was not my intention, nor will it ever be. I believe my track record speaks for the integrity I hold on following rules and fair play. |
Yeah. I was under the impression that the point was to discuss this question...
Originally posted by glad2badad:
In your opinion, what is collaboration? Is it ok for someone else to press the shutter, and if so, under what conditions? |
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05/19/2006 01:12:02 PM · #27 |
From what I understand, the colaboration 'rule' is there to prevent the following situation...
Katie sucks at taking photo, Richard is much better than her. Katie and Richard are married. Sometimes Katie take a photo and enters it under username x99, and sometimes Richard takes the photos for the challenges and enters them under username x99. This is not allowed. A person is NOT allowed to share an account unless approved by the Admin/SC. There is one situation where we have allowed this regarding a class of mentally challenged individuals who work together to achieve their images.
Helping people with the photos is allowed, as long as the idea, and set up and such are YOUR idea, and the photo is submitted under YOUR account. Not a shared account.
I hope this helps.
~H~ |
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05/19/2006 01:20:46 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
... I believe my track record speaks for the integrity I hold on following rules and fair play. |
That's why I was surprised when the thread persisted. I'm not going to stop your discussion, I was just saying how it felt to me ... |
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05/19/2006 01:21:18 PM · #29 |
I always read "You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to" as being for people not physically capable of pressing the shutter due to physical limitations. Does it really mean someone else can press the shutter because I can't be near enough to the camera to push it myself?
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05/19/2006 01:24:02 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I always read "You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to" as being for people not physically capable of pressing the shutter due to physical limitations. Does it really mean someone else can press the shutter because I can't be near enough to the camera to push it myself? |
Yes, it's the functional equivalent to using a remote or timer. You should frame/compose the image and make any necessary settings yourself, but you can have someone else trigger the shutter. |
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05/19/2006 01:24:20 PM · #31 |
Suppose I wanted to take an image of Karma the Wonderdog streaking across the frame from right to left. I set up the tripod, compose to the background exactly the way I want it, I set the camera to burst mode, and I'm ready to go. Only one problem; when I call Karma, she runs straight to me.
So I set up, I attach the remote, and I ask my friend Patrick to stand there holding the remote, and to press it when Karma starts running. Then I park Karma on a "hold" off to the right, and I move well to the left and tell Patrick "Get ready!"
Then I release karma from the hold with a loud "Karma, COME!" and she takes off straight for me, running across the frame of the picture as Patrick presses the shutter release and lets the 20D rip.
I'd call that legal, myself...
R.
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05/19/2006 01:27:27 PM · #32 |
Oh, the possibilites...
(and the loss of ideas I haven't used because I don't have a remote!)
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05/19/2006 01:29:06 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Oh, the possibilites...
(and the loss of ideas I haven't used because I don't have a remote!) |
If you're married, the Honeydew Remote is very inexpensive and generally reliable, except during football season, on Sundays :-)
R.
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05/19/2006 01:48:02 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by mk:
While threads like this pop up every three minutes? |
mk brings up an extremely valid point in my mind and something I've been thinking about for quite some time (has nothing to do with the "who presses the shutter button" topic).
I can't understand why challenge outtakes aren't allowed but the threads like the one she mentioned above are. Almost every challenge has someone asking, "Why do you people post all these $^&%#$@ flower shots, all these &%$#&*@ waterdrops, all these #^&%#$*! waterfalls? You people are not creative" etc. How can this not be considered vote swaying as much as, if not more than, outtakes that don't even resemble the image that someone submitted? Personally I feel that the only forum topic that should be allowed about a current challenge are the "post your scores" types.
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05/19/2006 02:04:33 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Personally I feel that the only forum topic that should be allowed about a current challenge are the "post your scores" types. |
In theory, we're a learning site. Every new challenge offers opportunities for learning, especially challenges such as "high contrast" or "still life" or "complementary colors", anything that involves definitions basically. What better time to discuss these topics than when there's a challenge focused on them?
There are those who say we shouldn't "interpret" these during the shooting week, as it "stifles creativity", and that we shouldn't do it during the voting week because it might "sway votes"... But if we wait until it's all over, attention shifts to the next challenge and not so many people are willing to spend time sharing their thoughts on the given technique or genre.
I think the rules as they stand now, forbidding posting of outtakes or discussion of specific entries, are a happy middle ground. I think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we try to clamp down on dissection of challenge topics, and education about them, during the challenge timeframe.
Robt.
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05/19/2006 02:08:29 PM · #36 |
could be discussed for an entire week before the voting starts
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we try to clamp down on dissection of challenge topics, and education about them, during the challenge timeframe.
Robt. |
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05/19/2006 02:09:02 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we try to clamp down on dissection of challenge topics, and education about them, during the challenge timeframe.
Robt.
Yep, because once the results are posted few care anymore and are on to the next challenge, so nothing learned.
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 14:10:11. |
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05/19/2006 02:11:05 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I think the rules as they stand now, forbidding posting of outtakes or discussion of specific entries, are a happy middle ground. I think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we try to clamp down on dissection of challenge topics, and education about them, during the challenge timeframe.
Robt. |
I don't see it so much as a middle ground as an uneven application of rules. I don't understand why posting a photo sways votes but repeated complaining about how shots of a certain thing are boring, repetitive, ugly, DNMC, etc., etc. does not. Or blanket statements about the quality of a challenge. In fact, it's those threads where I see people admit to having been swayed. It just doesn't make sense.
Edited to say that we probably ought to drag this out to another thread or back to the discussion thread about the outtakes poll. We're pretty off topic here. :)
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 14:14:57. |
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05/19/2006 02:27:32 PM · #39 |
I understand what you're saying Robert. What I don't get is how a posted outtake that has nothing to do with the submitted version is considered vote swaying but belittling the creativity of an individuals particular subject during voting isn't. I have no problems discussing it during the week of shooting but I see nothing beneficial to these threads during the voting phase. Seems to be more of a rant or vent rather than to actually help someone "learn" something.
Edit: I guess mk could type it faster than I could. Got a heated game of Party Poker going right now and had to type in between plays.
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 14:29:46.
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05/19/2006 02:47:44 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by idnic:
With self timers and locking remotes, not to mention tripods, etc... I can't imagine a situation that would require another person. Not saying their isn't one, but I can't think of any.... |
I got one! I got one! Two actually:
The timer only lasts 10 seconds. It took me two minutes to scramble barefoot out on the rocks. I set up the tripod, the camera, all the settings. My son pushed the remote shutter about a dozen times while I changed my pose.
This one was in almost pitch black. I set up the camera (shutter speed 30 sec), the tripod, and the location. My husband held and pushed the remote shutter. It took me about 30 seconds to walk down to where I was and get myself situated. I only had my 28-80 with me so a closer set up was not an option. We took about 25 pics, in different poses and positions (all chosen by me) with the tripod and camera stationary.
In both pics, I chose all the camera settings and lenses, the camera and tripod positions, the shutter speed and aperature, the locations, the poses, and all post editing. The ONLY thing that was done to assist me was:
1. Helping me get my gear to the location,
2. Pushing the shutter button when I said go.
So I consider them my pictures. :) |
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05/19/2006 02:54:40 PM · #41 |
I think the OP has, perhaps indirectly, raised a valid point which needs to be addressed. The message that appears when you click to request validation suggest that someone can use the forums to find the answer to what they were questioning. This was probalby intended to cut down on the number of requests. However it is long standing policy not to discuss specific images in the forums during voting. There's a conflict there, pretty clearly a conflict in my mind. It would be beneficial to the community if that conflict were resolved. I think the way to do that is to take the words about using the forums out of the request message. Making that one little change would do a lot more good than argueing about it in the forums ad nauseum.
As for the threads about challenge topics, I don't like the way they sometimes shape the community's interpretation at the expense of an individual's own. But I concede this activity because I see that sometimes there are real questions, especially those from less experienced photographers, where the answers can truely be educational. As for the "scores" threads - they do sway votes, sometimes a lot. Please don't waste my time denying this. And I don't see anything educational about knowing another user's score during the voting period. All the resources and energy that goes into those threads would find a better use if "scores" threads were discontinued.
We frequently see posts in forum threads saying we need to get the thread back on topic. There is an awful lot of stuff in our forums lately that doesn't have anything at all to do with education, the challenges, or even with photography in any general way. I think the forums as a whole need to get back on topic.
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05/19/2006 03:03:32 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I think the OP has, perhaps indirectly, raised a valid point which needs to be addressed. The message that appears when you click to request validation suggest that someone can use the forums to find the answer to what they were questioning. This was probalby intended to cut down on the number of requests. However it is long standing policy not to discuss specific images in the forums during voting. There's a conflict there, pretty clearly a conflict in my mind. It would be beneficial to the community if that conflict were resolved. I think the way to do that is to take the words about using the forums out of the request message. Making that one little change would do a lot more good than argueing about it in the forums ad nauseum. ... |
I agree. Thank you. It is tough to discuss this without the specific image that prompted me to start this thread. Although Courtenay (dakota) posted a couple of good ones - showing it is possible to collaborate and be legal. Cleared up a bit of the shutter release question. Maybe something was learned after all? ;^) |
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05/19/2006 03:06:35 PM · #43 |
Seinfeld!!
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
There was a second shooter on the grassy knoll. |
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05/19/2006 03:43:31 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
I understand what you're saying Robert. What I don't get is how a posted outtake that has nothing to do with the submitted version is considered vote swaying... |
Because if I take a picture of converging railroad tracks for "perspective" and decide not to go with it, instead entering a shot of something else altogether, and THEN post up my RR tracks shot and say "I almost entered this, how would it have done?" it sparks a discussion of the image.
And in that discussion any number of people will comment "That's been done so often it's boring, if you're going to enter RR tracks they need something special to stand out from the crowd," and THAT will get others thinking negatively about "boring RR tracks entries" and THAT will influence the scoring on RR tracks images that WERE entered in the challenge.
It isn't fair to the entrants at ALL to discuss outtakes during the challenge itself.
For the other part of your question, it's just that we DO need a middle ground; if there can't be ANY discussion, then little or nothing can be learned.
Robt.
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05/19/2006 03:57:58 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
It isn't fair to the entrants at ALL to discuss outtakes during the challenge itself. |
Absolutely agree.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
For the other part of your question, it's just that we DO need a middle ground; if there can't be ANY discussion, then little or nothing can be learned.
Robt. |
Absolutely agree again. However, I feel that if someone actually wanted to learn rather than just complain about a subject, they'd either participate during the photography phase or come back after the challenge ends and enter a discussion then. Would this not weed out the complainers and actually help someone who wants to learn rather than them having to read through an entire thread of "damn flowers, damn water shots, damn sunsets"?
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05/19/2006 04:06:05 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Would this not weed out the complainers and actually help someone who wants to learn rather than them having to read through an entire thread of "damn flowers, damn water shots, damn sunsets"? |
Well, that part ain't much use, for sure, but there's a lot of threads that discuss the actual description and what it "means" and these can be very educational.
R.
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05/19/2006 04:11:37 PM · #47 |
| I think DPC should try a challenge where everyone is 'flying blind' for a week, much like when you enter a juried competition. If, for the one week of a challenge, voters and submitters couldn't see their scores, the forums would be vastly different. No 'real' scores threads. The DNMC and the I hate threads might ease up as people would be afraid to influence the voting on their own images. Then we could 'prove' whether or not seeing votes as we go influences voters and submitters. We could see what would happen to the threads if scores weren't involved. Those addicted to the update button would have a week to take a vacation, re-introduce themselves to their family, eat. :) |
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05/19/2006 04:17:25 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
I think DPC should try a challenge where everyone is 'flying blind' for a week, much like when you enter a juried competition. If, for the one week of a challenge, voters and submitters couldn't see their scores, the forums would be vastly different. No 'real' scores threads. The DNMC and the I hate threads might ease up as people would be afraid to influence the voting on their own images. Then we could 'prove' whether or not seeing votes as we go influences voters and submitters. We could see what would happen to the threads if scores weren't involved. Those addicted to the update button would have a week to take a vacation, re-introduce themselves to their family, eat. :) |
I've suggested we just shut the forums down for a week : ) |
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05/19/2006 04:42:10 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I've suggested we just shut the forums down for a week : ) |
really ? a vacation ? oh, thanks ... :-)
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05/19/2006 04:46:43 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
I think DPC should try a challenge where everyone is 'flying blind' for a week, much like when you enter a juried competition. If, for the one week of a challenge, voters and submitters couldn't see their scores, the forums would be vastly different. No 'real' scores threads. The DNMC and the I hate threads might ease up as people would be afraid to influence the voting on their own images. Then we could 'prove' whether or not seeing votes as we go influences voters and submitters. We could see what would happen to the threads if scores weren't involved. Those addicted to the update button would have a week to take a vacation, re-introduce themselves to their family, eat. :) |
This is a very interesting idea. No one can see any scores, or comments, not even see how many votes, views, comments or favs their entry has received until voting is done. Maybe we would find things to talk about in the forums that were more constructive than just our current scores. Maybe people would comment more on entries. Might need to try it for a month to get an accurate assesment as the first week would be tainted by heavy duty withdrawl symptoms, LOL.
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