| Author | Thread |
|
|
05/17/2006 01:55:07 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I plan to save the world several times over and find a cure for cancer so it's OK for me to cheat on all my college and med school exams and lie on the applications or do anything else really, because my motives are good.
OH PUHLEEZE! |
Yes, if you cure cancer then all of that stuff and more is worth it;) |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 02:28:37 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by rswank:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I plan to save the world several times over and find a cure for cancer so it's OK for me to cheat on all my college and med school exams and lie on the applications or do anything else really, because my motives are good.
OH PUHLEEZE! |
Ding ding ding!
Winner of today's Really Bad Analogy award.
It's like winning the pulitzer. |
It's taking the concept further, but it's EXACTLY the same thing.
Just because someone's goals are good doesn't justify doing the wrong thing in pursuit of that goal. DUH. |
His GOAL is to continue submitting images as he backpacks around the world. His APPROACH was to ask if it is allowed to have someone else auto-process and uplaod his images. I don't see anything wrong with either the goal or the question. I'm not in a position to determine, however, if the administrators would be willing to grant an exemption.
If they ARE willing to grant it, then that's cool. Right?
R. |
I don't think it is the OP who people are upset at, it is the person who suggested that breaking rules was OK as long as the intentions were good. The OP had a valid question and mk and I answered the best way we could, even quoting the rules. So, if he wants to take his request to the admins, then by all means he should. I am still appalled, however, that some suggested breaking the rules was OK. Sorry, I guess that just makes me want to question the integrity of DPCers as a group.
June
edit: a couple of typos
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 14:32:20.
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 02:34:44 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by kirsty_mcn:
Originally posted by Chiqui:
I have to disagree. If it was all "inconsequential so long as the intentions were pure" then all those people who have been DQed for mistakenly applying illegal processing on a basic challenge thinking it was an advanced challenged deserve to have their DQ revoked, yes? Rules are rules and they are there for a reason. I think this comment you have made is unacceptable. Let's not condone this sort of behaviour.
June
edit: typo |
I never said that "cheating is inconsequential so long as the intentions are pure"; I'm talking about a particular context, where I truly believe (and just my humble opinion, by all means disagree) that there would be no difference between the OP clicking autolevels, sharpen for web etc, and the OP uploading the photo than someone else. To me thats no different to someone else clicking the sutter after you set up a shot. The only issue to me would be the account details.
But if my comment was truly that inappropriate it can be removed.
only my £0.02 |
That is YOUR opinion, but the site rules clearly state what is and isn't allowed and THAT is what matters.
June
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 02:40:10 PM · #29 |
My conscience wouldn't let me sleep at night if I had someone else take or post-process "my" photo, regardless of the rules.
I'd take a deep breath and cope with the withdrawals, instead. |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 02:47:16 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Chiqui:
I don't think it is the OP who people are upset at, it is the person who suggested that breaking rules was OK as long as the intentions were good. The OP had a valid question and mk and I answered the best way we could, even quoting the rules. So, if he wants to take his request to the admins, then by all means he should. I am still appalled, however, that some suggested breaking the rules was OK. Sorry, I guess that just makes me want to question the integrity of DPCers as a group.
|
Everyone breaks rules everyday. the intent behind breaking those rules is important. do i want people to break the rules on this website? no mainly because I have an unhealthy addiction to my score and if someone broke the rules to beat me I would be upset. that being said, this site doesn't mean the same to everyone so them not caring about the rules being broken doesn't mean they have less integrity it just means this site may mean less to them.
I don't wear my seatbelt. I know it is a law (I got a ticket the other day) but it is not that important to me. Am I breaking a rule? yes but I wouldn't say it means I have less integrity. I would say that almost everyone has gone over the speed limit sometime but maybe getting to that important event was more important at that moment than breakign a rule.
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 02:55:43 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by Chiqui:
I don't think it is the OP who people are upset at, it is the person who suggested that breaking rules was OK as long as the intentions were good. The OP had a valid question and mk and I answered the best way we could, even quoting the rules. So, if he wants to take his request to the admins, then by all means he should. I am still appalled, however, that some suggested breaking the rules was OK. Sorry, I guess that just makes me want to question the integrity of DPCers as a group.
|
Everyone breaks rules everyday. the intent behind breaking those rules is important. do i want people to break the rules on this website? no mainly because I have an unhealthy addiction to my score and if someone broke the rules to beat me I would be upset. that being said, this site doesn't mean the same to everyone so them not caring about the rules being broken doesn't mean they have less integrity it just means this site may mean less to them.
I don't wear my seatbelt. I know it is a law (I got a ticket the other day) but it is not that important to me. Am I breaking a rule? yes but I wouldn't say it means I have less integrity. I would say that almost everyone has gone over the speed limit sometime but maybe getting to that important event was more important at that moment than breakign a rule. |
Breaking the rules by not wearing your seatbealt does not equal cheating. Breaking the rules here does equal cheating. I respect your opinion but I have some strong ones of my own, that is all.
June
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 02:57:45 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by Chiqui:
I don't think it is the OP who people are upset at, it is the person who suggested that breaking rules was OK as long as the intentions were good. The OP had a valid question and mk and I answered the best way we could, even quoting the rules. So, if he wants to take his request to the admins, then by all means he should. I am still appalled, however, that some suggested breaking the rules was OK. Sorry, I guess that just makes me want to question the integrity of DPCers as a group.
|
Everyone breaks rules everyday. the intent behind breaking those rules is important. do i want people to break the rules on this website? no mainly because I have an unhealthy addiction to my score and if someone broke the rules to beat me I would be upset. that being said, this site doesn't mean the same to everyone so them not caring about the rules being broken doesn't mean they have less integrity it just means this site may mean less to them.
I don't wear my seatbelt. I know it is a law (I got a ticket the other day) but it is not that important to me. Am I breaking a rule? yes but I wouldn't say it means I have less integrity. I would say that almost everyone has gone over the speed limit sometime but maybe getting to that important event was more important at that moment than breakign a rule. |
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the intent behind breaking rules makes no difference at all. The justification apparently makes YOU feel better, though. |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:05:19 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Everyone breaks rules everyday. the intent behind breaking those rules is important. do i want people to break the rules on this website? no mainly because I have an unhealthy addiction to my score and if someone broke the rules to beat me I would be upset. that being said, this site doesn't mean the same to everyone so them not caring about the rules being broken doesn't mean they have less integrity it just means this site may mean less to them.
I don't wear my seatbelt. I know it is a law (I got a ticket the other day) but it is not that important to me. Am I breaking a rule? yes but I wouldn't say it means I have less integrity. I would say that almost everyone has gone over the speed limit sometime but maybe getting to that important event was more important at that moment than breakign a rule. |
I break the rules, indeed the law, almost everytime I get behind the wheel for I am a habitual speeder with enough tickets to paper a wall. But I am not foolish enough to try to justify it by saying it's OK because lots of other people do it too. I know it is wrong. And I know that I am, at times, endangering other people in a way I have no right to. It's not OK just because many do it. And it's not OK if you get away with it. And it's still not OK even if you can find a lot of people who don't care. If you are going to do something that you know, or ought to know, is wrong, whether it's speeding or trying to sneak in a little spot editing in a Basic rules challenge here, be honest about it and admit (at least to yourself) that it's wrong. Don't try to pass it off as OK just because you can find other people who share your rationalizations.
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:08:44 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Chiqui:
I am still appalled, however, that some suggested breaking the rules was OK. Sorry, I guess that just makes me want to question the integrity of DPCers as a group.
June
|
I said I'd keep out of it, but just wanted to say please don't dis "DPCers as a group" - if you question my integrity, thats your call, but surely the outrage at what I said suggests I'm on my own here.
For the record, I never said that cheating is always ok if the intentions are pure or anything like that - just that I didn't see anything that went against the spirit of the site in this one specific situation (as I explained somewhere earlier). And when I said noone would know, I never for the life of me wanted to say "cheatings ok if noone knows", I was meaning to say if the OP hadn't asked, no-one would have known and it would -imho- been inconsequential, for reasons explained earlier. The fact he asked, at the risk of being told no, and not being able to find a way to enter, has to carry some weight in my books. I realise now that that bit came out wrong. I'm sorry.
I still side with Robert - even if it does set a precedent, so long as the rules stay the same, the SC/D&L will still be able to refuse anyone. |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:09:55 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I break the rules, indeed the law, almost everytime I get behind the wheel for I am a habitual speeder with enough tickets to paper a wall. But I am not foolish enough to try to justify it by saying it's OK because lots of other people do it too. I know it is wrong. And I know that I am, at times, endangering other people in a way I have no right to. It's not OK just because many do it. And it's not OK if you get away with it. And it's still not OK even if you can find a lot of people who don't care. If you are going to do something that you know, or ought to know, is wrong, whether it's speeding or trying to sneak in a little spot editing in a Basic rules challenge here, be honest about it and admit (at least to yourself) that it's wrong. Don't try to pass it off as OK just because you can find other people who share your rationalizations. |
I never said it was ok. I said it doesn't mean i have less integrity. My point about everyone breaking rules is that the act of breaking a rule does not equal less integrity. |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:15:25 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by coolhar:
I break the rules, indeed the law, almost everytime I get behind the wheel for I am a habitual speeder with enough tickets to paper a wall. But I am not foolish enough to try to justify it by saying it's OK because lots of other people do it too. I know it is wrong. And I know that I am, at times, endangering other people in a way I have no right to. It's not OK just because many do it. And it's not OK if you get away with it. And it's still not OK even if you can find a lot of people who don't care. If you are going to do something that you know, or ought to know, is wrong, whether it's speeding or trying to sneak in a little spot editing in a Basic rules challenge here, be honest about it and admit (at least to yourself) that it's wrong. Don't try to pass it off as OK just because you can find other people who share your rationalizations. |
I never said it was ok. I said it doesn't mean i have less integrity. My point about everyone breaking rules is that the act of breaking a rule does not equal less integrity. |
How do you figure? A parking ticket is regulatory, so if you park illegally, it doesn't mean you're a bad person (I agree with you thus far) but to break a rule here is not "regulatory" as these are the "laws" of DPC, so I think it does speak to integrity in THIS case.
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:16:40 PM · #37 |
wow... I bumped this thread this morning, went to NYC for a few hours, got back and saw total upheaval.
I didnt' mean to cause any anger on this forum. I've entered a total of 3 challenges, and I've only been registered for a few months, so I know I don't hold too much weight.
Because some people would be upset even if I got permission to submit through a friend, I will not submit any photos while traveling. I wasn't even sure if I'd get a chance to submit at all, because my internet access will be very limited in the remote areas that I will be traveling in.
Thanks Bear for volunteering to help me out, but I don't want to anger any other people. When I get back to the U.S. in July, I'll probably head up to the Cape with some friends. I'd be honored to do a GTG with you; you're an awesome photographer.
The debate in this thread has been rather interesting though. It is very similar to the conflicting arguments posed by Thomas Hobbes and Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Hobbes essentially believed the rules could never be broken, because order would therefore seize to exist. Rousseau believed in man's good nature, and allowed for temporary suspension of rules. I see myself as a Hobbesian, so I will not break the rules. For those who were upset and making various analogies, I recommend reading Rousseau or Hobbes to further expand your arguments. (sorry, I just graduated from college and I'm missing it a bit)
Finally, for all of those who opposed me getting permission, I will post my photos when I return. I hope you will then take the time to comment on some of them! |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:21:15 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
I never said it was ok. I said it doesn't mean i have less integrity. My point about everyone breaking rules is that the act of breaking a rule does not equal less integrity. |
In your world, habitual rulebreakers have as much integrity as those who never break the rules? Or, perhaps this puts it better, "integrity" is not about keeping or breaking rules?
There's some truth to that, in the sense that I don't think running a stop sign is an indication that the transgressor has no integrity, for example. But we're engaged in competition here, and persons of integrity always follow the rules of competitions. Period. That's an absolute statement.
The only gray area is if one unwittingly breaks a rule, which is the case with nearly all DQs in DPC as far as I can see.
Robt.
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:21:18 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by frisca:
How do you figure? A parking ticket is regulatory, so if you park illegally, it doesn't mean you're a bad person (I agree with you thus far) but to break a rule here is not "regulatory" as these are the "laws" of DPC, so I think it does speak to integrity in THIS case. |
I would agree with you to a point. The op only wants to get thier photo on the site nothing more. what they would have to do does break rules and it is understandable if they were told no (as I have stated i would vote no if this were a poll) but what they want to do is not the most terrible thing in the world and I think someone not being up in arms at the thought of the OP's request doesn't mean they have less integrity.
Also as one who doesn't post in any boards other than these ,does everyone else find it terribly hard to get your point across just by typing:(
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 15:28:16. |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:25:27 PM · #40 |
I just wanted to repost this in case it got lost in all the ethical dilemmas. :)
Originally posted by mk:
There are a few online photo editors, like pxn8.com that you could check out for basic edits. There are also a number of portable apps, like Portable GIMP that take limited amounts of space. |
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:28:05 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by shaggy35:
wow... I bumped this thread this morning, went to NYC for a few hours, got back and saw total upheaval.
I didnt' mean to cause any anger on this forum. I've entered a total of 3 challenges, and I've only been registered for a few months, so I know I don't hold too much weight.
Because some people would be upset even if I got permission to submit through a friend, I will not submit any photos while traveling. I wasn't even sure if I'd get a chance to submit at all, because my internet access will be very limited in the remote areas that I will be traveling in.
Thanks Bear for volunteering to help me out, but I don't want to anger any other people. When I get back to the U.S. in July, I'll probably head up to the Cape with some friends. I'd be honored to do a GTG with you; you're an awesome photographer.
The debate in this thread has been rather interesting though. It is very similar to the conflicting arguments posed by Thomas Hobbes and Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Hobbes essentially believed the rules could never be broken, because order would therefore seize to exist. Rousseau believed in man's good nature, and allowed for temporary suspension of rules. I see myself as a Hobbesian, so I will not break the rules. For those who were upset and making various analogies, I recommend reading Rousseau or Hobbes to further expand your arguments. (sorry, I just graduated from college and I'm missing it a bit)
Finally, for all of those who opposed me getting permission, I will post my photos when I return. I hope you will then take the time to comment on some of them! |
Thats cool. I'll try and take a look if I'm around when you post them.
fwiw, no-one was angry at you.
Just wondering, as I didn't expect people to be upset with Bear's suggestion of getting permission, how do those people (or anyone) feel about the members who upload their kids photos for them (and sometimes edit minimally/resize)? Then all editing is not done by the photog - I feel while it may not explicitly say so in the rules (correct me if theres special rules for minors or something), that its of course ok, done with "pure intentions", but some of the viewpoints here would seem to be against this too. Any comments??
ETA:
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Also as one who doesn't post in any boards other than these ,does everyone else find it terrible hard to get your point across just by typing:( |
Yeah, I have that problem too, as you may have gathered
*sigh*
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 15:29:20. |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:29:55 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by kirsty_mcn:
that its of course ok, done with "pure intentions", but some of the viewpoints here would seem to be against this too. Any comments?? |
everyone already seems mad at me are you just trying to get me in deeper here;) |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:30:57 PM · #43 |
interesting question about kids, kirsty. The generally accepted practice with respect to underage folks (kids) at dpc is that their parents CAN help them with using the software to upload, resize, etc, but all editing decisions are ultimately made or approved of by the kid. Allows them to participate without too much handholding.
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:30:57 PM · #44 |
I am by no means opposed to him asking the admins for permission, after all the rules say he can ask. Wether permission will be granted or not, that is up to them and the rest of us would have to put our tail between our legs. If they did allow it though, it would open a huge can of worms.
June
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:42:35 PM · #45 |
edit: no matter, would just be diggin myself a hole
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by kirsty_mcn:
that its of course ok, done with "pure intentions", but some of the viewpoints here would seem to be against this too. Any comments?? |
everyone already seems mad at me are you just trying to get me in deeper here;) |
I think you're safe - I seem to have got the brunt of the attack....
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 15:45:26. |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:44:37 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Chiqui:
I am by no means opposed to him asking the admins for permission, after all the rules say he can ask. Wether permission will be granted or not, that is up to them and the rest of us would have to put our tail between our legs. If they did allow it though, it would open a huge can of worms.
June |
I don't see why. If a "rider" were attached to the permission specifying that ONLY certain operations could be performed by the poster, I don't see any can of worms being opened at all. It's a very specific circumstance and one I've wondered about. Possible rider: "Yes, Shaggy, you may have Bear_Music process and upload your images during your trip. He may ONLY convert to jpg, resize, and apply autolevels and/or autocolor and/or USM to your images."
There must BE circumstances that allow collaboration, or the rule about requesting permission wouldn't be there. We've already seen it with the group membership for the kids, and we've seen (frequently) parents giving their kids a hand with technical stuff as they make the entries.
I would assume, for example, that if I shot a challenge photo for a month-long free study, then got stricken with paralysis (God forbid) and asked for permission to have my friend Jill (not a member) PS the image with me instructing her, and upload it for me, that such permission would be granted...
Robt.
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:45:19 PM · #47 |
No one is attacking YOU, kirsty, just some ideas you've expressed. Its part of healthy discussion. We're all still friends!
And if you or Elvis need any help with the forums, or expressing yourself or anything else, just give me a shout. I'll be happy to help.
|
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:45:52 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I plan to save the world several times over and find a cure for cancer so it's OK for me to cheat on all my college and med school exams and lie on the applications or do anything else really, because my motives are good.
OH PUHLEEZE! |
Yes, if you cure cancer then all of that stuff and more is worth it;) |
I never said anything about actually achieving that goal, just having that as my goal to justify bad acts.
In essence what you're saying is that the ends would justify any means?
So, if a serial rapist/murderer were to say, discover the cure for cancer, you would be willing to overlook any criminal acts, no matter how heinous? |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:48:42 PM · #49 |
| As for breaking the rules, anyone can disregard rules and act as they wish. However, they should do so, knowing and accepting that there may be unpleasant consequences for doing so. |
|
|
|
05/17/2006 03:50:46 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by frisca:
No one is attacking YOU, kirsty, just some ideas you've expressed. Its part of healthy discussion. We're all still friends!
And if you or Elvis need any help with the forums, or expressing yourself or anything else, just give me a shout. I'll be happy to help. |
No offense taken, just surprised at how angry some people got, and worried that my stray viewpoint might make some people respect the DPC community less. Must admit there were a couple of badly communicated opinions on my part, but still think it was well worthwhile discussing. (but maybe next time someone else can play devil's advocate :P)
:)
typos
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 15:55:06. |
|
