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04/19/2006 10:15:37 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Sorry - but that's BS! The general population here are here to have fun. Ribbon winners get more comments because their shots are better. Period! They do not message all 400+ voters in each challenge and request a personal review/comment. ... |
I really hate it when I see the possibility of such actions dismissed so lightly. It just makes it easier for those who would cheat to get away with it because no one will be on guard looking for it. Who knows how much of that is going on? Please don't be so naieve as to think that it doesn't happen.
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04/19/2006 10:20:00 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Some people are very happy with their work and do not want comments, and some are here to learn. I think there should be a box to check that says whether or not you want comments. |
I am very against this idea. This site was formed to help people learn about photography. The best way to learn is by recieving and even more importantly giving comments. If someone doesn't want to take part in this portion of the site than maybe it's not the site for them. There are countless photography sites where people can post their pictures for the world to oooh and aaah over them. This site is different...
Edit to fix quote...
Message edited by author 2006-04-19 22:21:00. |
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04/19/2006 10:23:13 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Rikki:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Rikki:
Better yet, if an image is scored 4 and below, how about asking for a bit of advice as to why it deserved such a score? |
Be careful what you wish for. Forced comments may be less desirable than few or no comments. |
true ;) but it would be nice to tell folks why you scored them low... |
People don't have the right to expect that. The continual repetition of such requests in these forums has the effect of discouraging people from voting honestly, and making them feel guilty for not commenting more. I wish there could be an end to such inane pipedreams as forced comments. Rikki, as much as you have participated in this community, by now you should understand that forced comments are not a good thing.
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04/19/2006 10:24:19 PM · #29 |
It doesn't matter how many people want it, it'll just never happen in the end. *mandatory* commenting will simply end up with people putting "nice shot" "yup" "ok" etc, in the comment box, or avoid voting altogether.
No matter how you tried to police that.
It's simply, a bad, idea. |
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04/19/2006 10:26:10 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by idnic:
Sorry - but that's BS! The general population here are here to have fun. Ribbon winners get more comments because their shots are better. Period! They do not message all 400+ voters in each challenge and request a personal review/comment. ... |
I really hate it when I see the possibility of such actions dismissed so lightly. It just makes it easier for those who would cheat to get away with it because no one will be on guard looking for it. Who knows how much of that is going on? Please don't be so naieve as to think that it doesn't happen. |
Please provide some kinda proof that it is. I hate blanket accusations with out something to back it up... |
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04/19/2006 10:33:46 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Please provide some kinda proof that it is. I hate blanket accusations with out something to back it up... |
It wasn't really a blanket accusation. Just saying that I believe it can and does happen. I don't know how much. How about some of the doubters supplying proof that it does not happen? Can't we all agree that it is possible?
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04/19/2006 10:40:35 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
It wasn't really a blanket accusation. Just saying that I believe it can and does happen. I don't know how much. How about some of the doubters supplying proof that it does not happen? Can't we all agree that it is possible? |
How many people would you have to get to vote your shot high to actually make a difference in the rankings? |
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04/20/2006 12:28:17 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by TooCool:
Please provide some kinda proof that it is. I hate blanket accusations with out something to back it up... |
It wasn't really a blanket accusation. Just saying that I believe it can and does happen. I don't know how much. How about some of the doubters supplying proof that it does not happen? Can't we all agree that it is possible? |
How many times have you been PMed and asked to comment on a winning shot and/or asked to vote highly on someone else's entry? |
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04/20/2006 12:30:40 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
How many people would you have to get to vote your shot high to actually make a difference in the rankings? |
There is no way to know for sure going into voting but by looking at the results you can answer that question accurately. Any place where the scores of two entries are fairly close a difference of a very small number of votes changed can determine, or overturn, the order fo finish.
I took a quick look at the Jump challenge and found:
For the blue ribbon to have been claimed by the second place finisher would require 2 people who voted the red ribbon shot a 5, and 2 more who voted it a 6 to change their 4 votes to 10.
The threshold for ribboning was even lower - persuadeing one voter who would have scored the 4th place shot as a 6 to raise their vote to an 8 would have copped the yellow ribbon.
To break into the top ten the 11th place image needed only to get one vote upped from a six to a 10.
So I would say that it takes getting only a very few voters, sometimes only a single person, to throw your image a ringer score to actually make a difference in the rankings. Kinda surprising even to me, but anyone can do the math for themself.
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04/20/2006 12:36:43 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by mk:
How many times have you been PMed and asked to comment on a winning shot and/or asked to vote highly on someone else's entry? |
I could count the number on one hand. But it would take both hands for the number of times other people have told me those requests were made to them. I suspect my numbers are not typical because of the stances I have taken, often, in these forums against such activity. We have seen such requests made publically in our forums for contests on other websites.
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04/20/2006 12:41:29 AM · #36 |
I don't know if this has every been suggested but it may work (or may not), just a suggestion. First before I offer my suggestion I have to say I am one of the members that is NOT commenting like I should. I don't know why, I want to but I don't know why.
We currently have a 20% vote requirement for your votes to count. Could we put a % on comments? If you don't meet that % then all of your comments for that challenge is tossed like votes are if you don't meet the 20%.
An example would be:
1. A challenge with 200 entries requires you to vote 20% = 40 entries.
2. You would be required to comment on 20% of your votes = 8.
3. If you don't comment on the 20% all your comments are tossed but not your votes.
4. For people that really want to comment of pictures I believe it would make the want to get to that % so there comments would remain.
5. The slider bar below the picture already shows how much % you have voted so D&L could change the comment portion to relate to percent of votes instead of entries.
Hope that makes sense.
-SDW
Message edited by author 2006-04-20 00:42:39.
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04/20/2006 12:50:08 AM · #37 |
Well Southern..... I love the idea, but fear that it could give rise to a multitude of platitudes.... and generate comments like ughhhhhh, ewww,, great, fantastic and the list goes on.
I too am guilty of not commenting enough and I will strive to remedy that. I find that if I truly want an honest opinion about a particular photo... I seek input from some of the folks I know on DPC.
There might be some magic remedy out there... just haven't seen it yet.
Ray. |
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04/20/2006 12:55:42 AM · #38 |
Southern, while I think your idea does have merit, I am uncertain that it would be a positive thing.
Along the lines of what someone mentioned earlier, I would much rather receive a comment from someone who WANTS to comment vs someone who is FORCED to comment. I, too, would fear generic comments copied and pasted on several images.
I much prefer 5 genuine comments over 20 fake ones.
My 2 cents :o)
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04/20/2006 12:56:01 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Well Southern..... I love the idea, but fear that it could give rise to a multitude of platitudes.... and generate comments like ughhhhhh, ewww,, great, fantastic and the list goes on.
I too am guilty of not commenting enough and I will strive to remedy that. I find that if I truly want an honest opinion about a particular photo... I seek input from some of the folks I know on DPC.
There might be some magic remedy out there... just haven't seen it yet.
Ray. |
Chrome Apr. 5 2006 - Apr. 11 2006 183 7.304 5.154 5.072 2.839 47,885 262 1,290 7
To give an example in the Chrome Challenge there were 47,885 votes with only 1,290 comments. A Comment to vote percentage of 2.7%. If we had a comment required percentage of 20% of our votes that same challenge would of had 47,885 votes with 9,577 comments. Instead of averaging 7 comments per entry it would of been averaging 53 comments per entry.
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04/20/2006 12:58:15 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Well Southern..... I love the idea, but fear that it could give rise to a multitude of platitudes.... and generate comments like ughhhhhh, ewww,, great, fantastic and the list goes on.
I too am guilty of not commenting enough and I will strive to remedy that. I find that if I truly want an honest opinion about a particular photo... I seek input from some of the folks I know on DPC.
There might be some magic remedy out there... just haven't seen it yet.
Ray. |
Chrome Apr. 5 2006 - Apr. 11 2006 183 7.304 5.154 5.072 2.839 47,885 262 1,290 7
To give an example in the Chrome Challenge there were 47,885 votes with only 1,290 comments. A Comment to vote percentage of 2.7%. If we had a comment required percentage of 20% of our votes that same challenge would of had 47,885 votes with 9,577 comments. Instead of averaging 7 comments per entry it would of been averaging 53 comments per entry. |
and 52 of those comments would be akin to "nice"
Not something I want to see. There is no real way of policing that either.
Message edited by author 2006-04-20 00:58:43. |
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04/20/2006 01:12:03 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Rikki:
true ;) but it would be nice to tell folks why you scored them low... |
People don't have the right to expect that. |
The rules state to leave a comment if you're scoring the photo a 1, 2 or 3 so yeah people do have the right to expect that.
Message edited by author 2006-04-20 01:12:17. |
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04/20/2006 01:15:46 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Well Southern..... I love the idea, but fear that it could give rise to a multitude of platitudes.... and generate comments like ughhhhhh, ewww,, great, fantastic and the list goes on.
I too am guilty of not commenting enough and I will strive to remedy that. I find that if I truly want an honest opinion about a particular photo... I seek input from some of the folks I know on DPC.
There might be some magic remedy out there... just haven't seen it yet.
Ray. |
Chrome Apr. 5 2006 - Apr. 11 2006 183 7.304 5.154 5.072 2.839 47,885 262 1,290 7
To give an example in the Chrome Challenge there were 47,885 votes with only 1,290 comments. A Comment to vote percentage of 2.7%. If we had a comment required percentage of 20% of our votes that same challenge would of had 47,885 votes with 9,577 comments. Instead of averaging 7 comments per entry it would of been averaging 53 comments per entry. |
and 52 of those comments would be akin to "nice"
Not something I want to see. There is no real way of policing that either. |
Then what about requiring 10% of your votes to have comments HOWEVER only the ones marked "helpful" count towards that 10%. Sure there will be plenty that don't get checked because it's not helpful OR the photographer just doesn't check any of theirs however this would require you to make more comments so that you get at least 10% marked as helpful. What about that? Oh and instead of losing the comments if you don't meet that mark your votes don't count (like the 20% vote rule works). Mind you it's still real easy to throw out a lot of "nice" comments to the best photos to cover yourself but at least you'd be getting in the habit of typing something which I think would be a small step in the right direction to fixing this problem.
Edited for clarity.
Message edited by author 2006-04-20 01:19:16. |
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04/20/2006 01:25:28 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Well Southern..... I love the idea, but fear that it could give rise to a multitude of platitudes.... and generate comments like ughhhhhh, ewww,, great, fantastic and the list goes on.
I too am guilty of not commenting enough and I will strive to remedy that. I find that if I truly want an honest opinion about a particular photo... I seek input from some of the folks I know on DPC.
There might be some magic remedy out there... just haven't seen it yet.
Ray. |
Chrome Apr. 5 2006 - Apr. 11 2006 183 7.304 5.154 5.072 2.839 47,885 262 1,290 7
To give an example in the Chrome Challenge there were 47,885 votes with only 1,290 comments. A Comment to vote percentage of 2.7%. If we had a comment required percentage of 20% of our votes that same challenge would of had 47,885 votes with 9,577 comments. Instead of averaging 7 comments per entry it would of been averaging 53 comments per entry. |
and 52 of those comments would be akin to "nice"
Not something I want to see. There is no real way of policing that either. |
Then what about requiring 10% of your votes to have comments HOWEVER only the ones marked "helpful" count towards that 10%. Sure there will be plenty that don't get checked because it's not helpful OR the photographer just doesn't check any of theirs however this would require you to make more comments so that you get at least 10% marked as helpful. What about that? Oh and instead of losing the comments if you don't meet that mark your votes don't count (like the 20% vote rule works). Mind you it's still real easy to throw out a lot of "nice" comments to the best photos to cover yourself but at least you'd be getting in the habit of typing something which I think would be a small step in the right direction to fixing this problem.
Edited for clarity. |
I don't see that working. People click on that box for reasons that have nothing to do with a comment being helpful whatsoever. Usually they only click it if it's a comment praising their photo, from what I've seen, or they click it every time, or they don't click it at all ever.
Quite frankly, this is a problem because of one reason.. human nature.
This is not something that will *EVER* be fixed by having mandatory commenting of *any* nature.
in 2016, this site will still be calling for people to comment more, no matter what it does.
Still, throwing ideas out there is good I suppose. |
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04/20/2006 01:25:49 AM · #44 |
How about having a special challenge that is only open to people who have made more comments than they have received; have commented a certain minimum number of times, say x times the number of challenges they have entered; and have at least 60% of their comments marked as Helpful? Make it an Open challenge under Basic rules so anyone who meets the criteria can enter.
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04/20/2006 01:26:25 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
How about having a special challenge that is only open to people who have made more comments than they have received; have commented a certain minimum number of times, say x times the number of challenges they have entered; and have at least 60% of their comments marked as Helpful? Make it an Open challenge under Basic rules so anyone who meets the criteria can enter. |
We've already had one successful invitational challenge of that nature. I'd like to see another, sure. |
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04/20/2006 01:39:06 AM · #46 |
| Bear Music pointed out out in another thread how easily that statistic is manipulatible... is that a word? :0P |
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04/20/2006 01:57:43 AM · #47 |
There is proof to show that comments per entry is dropping down. How to fix it, how to police it, I don't know. Or does it need fixing. I still like my 20/20 idea. But thats just me. Oh well heres a chart.
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04/20/2006 03:36:06 AM · #48 |
I think the single thing most of us could do to encourage commenting would be to make the two clicks on the link which it takes to send a PM saying "Thank you for commenting on my entry in the ___ challenge."
I keep pushing for a "Reply to Comment" button to make this easier, but the admins seem determined to channel everyone through a person's Profile page in order to send a PM ... : (
Unlike the "helpful" checkbox, I think this would have meaning to most people ... |
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04/20/2006 04:24:30 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
... I keep pushing for a "Reply to Comment" button to make this easier, but the admins seem determined to channel everyone through a person's Profile page in order to send a PM ... : ( ... |
This is a really good idea -- odd the admin's apparent channelling. This wouldn't be too different from the link already supplied in every PM received that allow quick and easy replies to be sent.
Although it does make a bit of sense to see the 'credentials' of the commenter before replying.
Surely there is a compromise in there somewhere.
David
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04/20/2006 04:28:15 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by Southern Gentleman:
Chrome Apr. 5 2006 - Apr. 11 2006 183 7.304 5.154 5.072 2.839 47,885 262 1,290 7
To give an example in the Chrome Challenge there were 47,885 votes with only 1,290 comments. A Comment to vote percentage of 2.7%. If we had a comment required percentage of 20% of our votes that same challenge would of had 47,885 votes with 9,577 comments. Instead of averaging 7 comments per entry it would of been averaging 53 comments per entry. |
It bears mentioning that even IF we started enforcing such a mandatory % of comments made, there's no guarantee the comments would spread where they are most needed. I'd expect, actually, that this would probably result in even MORE comments made on the top entries.
And, for that matter, the current 2.7% comments-to-votes ratio is actually even worse than it looks, because a significant number of those comments are appended to the high-scoring entries. Look at it this way; those 1290 comments are spread over 183 entries, making an average of 7 comments per entry. But the top 5 images averaged over 23 comments apiece, with shannon's red ribbon topping the list at 38 comments. The brown ribbon, incidentally, received a whopping 31 comments during voting, because it clearly was in the wrong challenge, and the rest of the bottom 5 ranged between 6 and 9 comments, right around the statistical average.
I don't know what, if anything, any of this really proves, sorry... Except that any approach to "requiring" comments is going to be futile. Those images that receive a lot of comments because they are clearly top-rank images are receiving mostly unfocused praise, which is fine for the ego but not especially "useful". Someday if I'm feeling really ambituous I'll scan all 1290 comments and see how many of them actually provide "useful" feedback in terms of mentioning specific problem areas that could be improved...
R.
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