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04/12/2006 06:06:47 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
It's not that major of a deal I guess if it's only one week, but it did tilt the playing field IMO and I'm not happy about it. Can you tell? ;^) |
Tilted the playing field? I think you're severely over-reacting. If a photo is a 10, it's a 10 whether it's dodged, burned, spot-edited, or not. As far as not being happy about it, I'm not happy every week that there is only one advanced challenge to choose from and it's something like "studio portrait" that I have no intention on shooting.
Fortunately for the rest of the entire community, I don't sit around and balk at the fact that I'm not happy about that weeks only advanced challenge -- I just sit back and wait for a challenge that I feel like entering.
If you can't enter a challenge for a week, then what's the big deal -- there's always next week.
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Hey, if my idea got accepted, where there were a total of four challenges a week (2 advanced, 2 basic) and paying members could enter a total of 2 (2 advanced, 2 basic, 1 advanced and 1 basic), you could get your cake and eat it too by entering both basic challenges...and guess what -- I'd get my cake and eat it too because I could enter both advanced challenges if I wanted to. On the opposite side, non-paying members would only be able to enter one of the two basic challenges per week...so guess what...there...you're happy, I'm happy, and the non-paying member gets something to be happy about, and the site is happy because now there is even more of a reason for non-paying members to become paying members...and they say you can't please everyone ;-)
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04/12/2006 06:26:35 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Tilted the playing field? I think you're severely over-reacting. |
That's your opinion, and obviously you're entitled to it. ;^)
Originally posted by deapee:
If a photo is a 10, it's a 10 whether it's dodged, burned, spot-edited, or not. ... |
So not true. The before and after (when they've been posted) of many top rated shots are substantially different from what would have been accomplished with basic editing.
Originally posted by deapee:
Fortunately for the rest of the entire community, I don't sit around and balk at the fact that I'm not happy about that weeks only advanced challenge... |
Well, there is always the ignore button. ;^)
Originally posted by deapee:
If you can't enter a challenge for a week, then what's the big deal -- there's always next week. |
I can enter, I usually do - just don't like the rules change, that's all. Besides that, I've made a commitment to my team (Team KM) and to the MS Photo Tournament...so I'm in regardless.
Really, it's not that big a deal. I wanted to voice my opinion, which I have. The hard part is getting a message across only in text sometimes. Harder yet is holding back on attempting to clarify a position by responding...
It was good hearing from you again deapee! ;^) I'd love to continue this banter, but I need to sign off now for awhile (please hold the applause/cheers until AFTER I've left).
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04/12/2006 06:31:45 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
It was good hearing from you again deapee! ;^) I'd love to continue this banter, but I need to sign off now for awhile (please hold the applause/cheers until AFTER I've left). |
Nice hearing from you as well...you've certainly made your position heard in a mature, non-repetitive, on-topic post and clarified all the points that anyone, anywhere, could possibly be confused about. Let me know when you're back so I can begin my cheer.
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04/12/2006 06:42:57 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Tilted the playing field? I think you're severely over-reacting. If a photo is a 10, it's a 10 whether it's dodged, burned, spot-edited, or not. As far as not being happy about it, I'm not happy every week that there is only one advanced challenge to choose from and it's something like "studio portrait" that I have no intention on shooting. |
I disagree completely. There are many effects that are commonly used in advanced challenges that are impossible to get out-of-camera. This makes the resulting image completely incomparable. Photoshop skills definitely tilt the field in advanced challenges. Two people can start with the same photo and end up with completely different results - if your skills are lacking, the odds are that you're going to lose the fight.
Even though I love digital photography, I have always severely resisted becoming a Photoshop wizard. With the exception of levels and other techniques that can be achieved in-darkroom, I find Photoshop to be the cheap way out. Even a bad photographer can make a good photo if they have the graphic arts skills. That's because the photo they took has little bearing on what comes out of PS.
That said, I will probably still participate in advanced challenges because to compete, I have to have those skills whether I like them or not.
Originally posted by deapee:
Hey, if my idea got accepted, where there were a total of four challenges a week (2 advanced, 2 basic) and paying members could enter a total of 2 (2 advanced, 2 basic, 1 advanced and 1 basic), you could get your cake and eat it too by entering both basic challenges...and guess what -- I'd get my cake and eat it too because I could enter both advanced challenges if I wanted to. On the opposite side, non-paying members would only be able to enter one of the two basic challenges per week...so guess what...there...you're happy, I'm happy, and the non-paying member gets something to be happy about, and the site is happy because now there is even more of a reason for non-paying members to become paying members...and they say you can't please everyone ;-) |
If we're going to down that road, why not just ensure that there are one basic and one advanced for both paid and free members every week. That way free members can do both, and paid can do all four... |
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04/12/2006 07:17:31 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
If we're going to down that road, why not just ensure that there are one basic and one advanced for both paid and free members every week. That way free members can do both, and paid can do all four... |
For a number of reasons. First, non-paying members, in my opinion, shouldn't get to enter more than one challenge a week -- that would double the amount of resources being used up from this site by non-paying members. Secondly, paying members shouldn't be allowed to enter all four because that would also double the amount of resources being used (by paying members). My method will still yield (around) the same number of participants weekly, but give more choice to those involved, and particularaly, more choice to the members who actually pay to belong to this site.
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And as far as you disagreeing completely, explain to me then if you are going through the photos, voting in a challenge...and you run across a photo -- it is a perfectly composed dreamy landscape with nice calm water, and the sun just setting on the horizon perfectly side-lighting the area -- as you look at the photo -- you give it a 10...see my point, a 10 is a 10 is a 10. Just because the next guy may get a 10 also, who just possibly may have used advanced editing to its fullest potential, your shot was still a 10.
I'm not arguing that there will be more competition due to the advanced rules in this challenge, but in reality, it shouldn't affect the score you give someone when viewing a photo in a challenge, or, likewise, the score you receive while someone is viewing your photo in a challenge.
What you are basically saying, is that photo I explained above, the voter will look at it and say "oops...it doesn't look to me like this particpant used advanced editing, it looks like he only used basic...I'm going to vote this one a 7 instead of a 10" -- in reality, the voter has no idea what you did or didn't do.
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04/12/2006 07:26:27 PM · #56 |
| Processing has an effect even in a basic challenge. If one person does nothing, another uses levels, someone else uses color sat and curves, and still someone else uses every legal basic tool, the playing field is not "level". Yes, the before and after thread showed dramatic difference, but that was the idea. A winner that did minimal processing would probably not have posted. You say you only want to use darkroom techniques, but a lot could be done in the darkroom. It is possible to take a great photo that does not need much if anything in the way of post processing. (If I get such a photo it is an accident, but many know enough about all the camera settings to get it right in the camera). DSLR vs point & shoot, 3 megapixels vs 8 MP, there really isn't a level playing field even if no post processing could be used. |
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04/12/2006 07:30:52 PM · #57 |
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04/12/2006 07:35:22 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Hey, if my idea got accepted, where there were a total of four challenges a week (2 advanced, 2 basic) and paying members could enter a total of 2 (2 advanced, 2 basic, 1 advanced and 1 basic), you could get your cake and eat it too by entering both basic challenges...and guess what -- I'd get my cake and eat it too because I could enter both advanced challenges if I wanted to. On the opposite side, non-paying members would only be able to enter one of the two basic challenges per week...so guess what...there...you're happy, I'm happy, and the non-paying member gets something to be happy about, and the site is happy because now there is even more of a reason for non-paying members to become paying members...and they say you can't please everyone ;-) |
I think that would be ideal :) (as long as OCCASIONALLY they toss the non-payers an advanced to try out, as they have this week) |
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04/12/2006 07:36:38 PM · #59 |
Good points, deapee. It would be interesting to compare the scores of the top ten shots in member challenges vs open challenges and see if the addition of advanced editing raises scores given. I give each photo what I think it deserves so I could have one or a dozen 10's in a challenge, and I have given many 10's in open challenges.
Edit to add: I think we were typing at the same time, it just took me longer to post!
Message edited by author 2006-04-12 19:37:44. |
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04/12/2006 07:56:08 PM · #60 |
There is an issue that rises from some of the posts in this thread which I believe is a legitmate one, but it's being dismissed as mere whining by many posters. A person who is not adept at the skills fostered by the Advanced rules, or perhaps just prefers Basic techniques, may have signed up for either the MS competitions, or the teams thing (WPL?). They would surely have been expecting to be able to choose from the usual two Basic rules topics. Now, with only Advanced rules challenges available, they may be feeling that they will not be able to produce the scores hoped for, and therefore will be letting down their teammates, or short-changing the charity. These concerns deserve better than the blithe sloganeering they have received as counterpoint. Posters ought to give a few moments consideration to another's point of view instead of simply posting combative rebuttals to anything they don't personally agree with.
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04/12/2006 08:00:46 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
There is an issue that rises from some of the posts in this thread which I believe is a legitmate one, but it's being dismissed as mere whining by many posters. A person who is not adept at the skills fostered by the Advanced rules, or perhaps just prefers Basic techniques, may have signed up for either the MS competitions, or the teams thing (WPL?). They would surely have been expecting to be able to choose from the usual two Basic rules topics. Now, with only Advanced rules challenges available, they may be feeling that they will not be able to produce the scores hoped for, and therefore will be letting down their teammates, or short-changing the charity. These concerns deserve better than the blithe sloganeering they have received as counterpoint. Posters ought to give a few moments consideration to another's point of view instead of simply posting combative rebuttals to anything they don't personally agree with. |
Those contest you mention are run within the site by members they are not official DPC competitions and should have no bearing on what D&L decide to offer as challenges infact I'm sure if these sideline competitions effected the normal running of the site you would be the first to complain.
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04/12/2006 08:04:05 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Those contest you mention are run within the site by members they are not official DPC competitions and should have no bearing on what D&L decide to offer as challenges infact I'm sure if these sideline competitions effected the normal running of the site you would be the first to complain. |
Did you read all of my post before you quoted it?
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04/12/2006 08:07:44 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
There is an issue that rises from some of the posts in this thread which I believe is a legitmate one, but it's being dismissed as mere whining by many posters. A person who is not adept at the skills fostered by the Advanced rules, or perhaps just prefers Basic techniques, may have signed up for either the MS competitions, or the teams thing (WPL?). They would surely have been expecting to be able to choose from the usual two Basic rules topics. Now, with only Advanced rules challenges available, they may be feeling that they will not be able to produce the scores hoped for, and therefore will be letting down their teammates, or short-changing the charity. These concerns deserve better than the blithe sloganeering they have received as counterpoint. Posters ought to give a few moments consideration to another's point of view instead of simply posting combative rebuttals to anything they don't personally agree with. |
The advanced rules might have an effect on placement, but should not affect the score of an individual photo. If it is worth a 7 it will get a 7. Placement might end up lower, but the actual score should be the same as it would be in a basic challenge. Not every entry in advanced challenges gets a 10. If you compare an average advanced entry to a great basic entry, the basic entry will score higher. |
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04/12/2006 08:44:04 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
The advanced rules might have an effect on placement, but should not affect the score of an individual photo. If it is worth a 7 it will get a 7. Placement might end up lower, but the actual score should be the same as it would be in a basic challenge. Not every entry in advanced challenges gets a 10. If you compare an average advanced entry to a great basic entry, the basic entry will score higher. |
American Idol is on and I'm responding to this... ;^)
You're missing part of the point on the editing. If an image is worth a 7, fine give it a 7. You're right, many will not see the difference when voting. Now the point I was trying to make is if you give me that shot that is worth a 7 in the original format I might only get a 5 or 6 because I botched the advanced editing, or forgo the advanced editing mostly because I'm not comfortable with that level of PP. Same image, one person presents it and gets a 7, another person presents it and gets a 5 or 6. You can't deny it...there are many on this site that can pull off such a feat without breaking a sweat. Let them go head-to-head in advanced challenges...but don't take away the basic challenge in the process.
Ok. I think Queen is performing. Need to see what's up. Thanks again for tolerating my long-winded verbiage. ;^)
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04/12/2006 08:55:15 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
American Idol is on and I'm responding to this... ;^)
You're missing part of the point on the editing. If an image is worth a 7, fine give it a 7. You're right, many will not see the difference when voting. Now the point I was trying to make is if you give me that shot that is worth a 7 in the original format I might only get a 5 or 6 because I botched the advanced editing, or forgo the advanced editing mostly because I'm not comfortable with that level of PP. Same image, one person presents it and gets a 7, another person presents it and gets a 5 or 6. You can't deny it...there are many on this site that can pull off such a feat without breaking a sweat. Let them go head-to-head in advanced challenges...but don't take away the basic challenge in the process.
Ok. I think Queen is performing. Need to see what's up. Thanks again for tolerating my long-winded verbiage. ;^) |
Dude, listen to yourself...basically what you're saying is that since Person A might know more about their camera than Person B that they shouldn't be in the same challenge (of course, you're talking about person A's and person B's knowledge in post-processing, but it relates very closely in my opinion).
You just admitted yourself, that a 10 is a 10 or a 7 is a 7 -- so then what you're afraid of, apparently, is that there will be more people that get those 10's or those 7's due to their knowledge of advanced editing techniques -- so in reality, you're afraid of the competition. That's what this site is about. And I'm not saying this directly to you, but if someone doesn't want competition, print out your pretty little photos, and show them to your family and friends. If a little competition is what you enjoy, then welcome to dpchallenge. Personally, I'll take the competition........
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04/12/2006 09:30:54 PM · #66 |
I'm not sure what you are afraid of. There are a lot of good entries that have minimal post processing, and many bad entries that use advanced rules. So you take the best shot of your life, process it in the way that makes you happy, and it is worth a 10. Two or three other people enter and use PS to make their entries worth a 10. So maybe I give 4 people a 10 instead of just you. You score a personal best 7.5 and come in 6th. Is that really so bad? You assume it's because you only used basic tools, but then you read the photog notes and first place shows his steps as levels and contrast. I just don't think you can say you will lose, or be penalized, for only using basic editing.
(Don't watch American Idol, but I am about to go watch last night's House episode.) |
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04/12/2006 09:49:32 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Dude, listen to yourself... |
I wish I could hear myself, that would mean others could too. Type, type, type...blah, blah, blah...
...nevermind, it all gets lost in translation somewhere.
Bring on the competition - I'll not run from it. Haven't yet, why should I now? But let's keep a basic challenge around so I don't have to strain myself trying to keep up on the PP.
Thanks y'all (tribute to Bucky). It's been fun! ;^) |
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04/12/2006 10:12:24 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I wish I could hear myself, that would mean others could too. Type, type, type...blah, blah, blah...
...nevermind, it all gets lost in translation somewhere.
Bring on the competition - I'll not run from it. Haven't yet, why should I now? But let's keep a basic challenge around so I don't have to strain myself trying to keep up on the PP.
Thanks y'all (tribute to Bucky). It's been fun! ;^) |
uhm...basic challenges aren't going anywhere. That has been answered a bunch of times by a few people in this thread alone. Also...yes, let's keep them around or else, God forbid, you may have to learn how to post-process your photographs...in all seriousness though, what would be so wrong with learning a bit about post?
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04/13/2006 09:43:06 AM · #69 |
Thank you for your response. I am not opposed to joining - I just have to wait to see if I will have enough time to view and submit in order to make it worth becoming a member. I don't want to be an antagonist (and forgive my naivety) but I can't find anywhere on the site (besides the forum) where it says that a perk of being a member is advanced editing challenges. Is this one of the unwritten rules of DP?
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 09:55:33. |
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04/13/2006 10:07:17 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by Plachoochi:
Thank you for your response. I am not opposed to joining - I just have to wait to see if I will have enough time to view and submit in order to make it worth becoming a member. I don't want to be an antagonist (and forgive my naivety) but I can't find anywhere on the site (besides the forum) where it says that a perk of being a member is advanced editing challenges. Is this one of the unwritten rules of DP? |
It's just that you would get to enter the member challenges, and they use the advanced editing rules. |
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04/26/2006 08:43:13 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
... I can almost guarantee you now that the Open challenges this week are under Advanced editing that at least 5 of the top 10 entries for the 'Something Old II' will be heavily dodged/burned/grunged for that dramatic look popular with DPC'rs currently. That puts those that are still fairly new to post-processing at a disadvantage this week... |
Looks like I was fairly close on the prediction... ;^) |
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04/26/2006 08:47:57 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
... I can almost guarantee you now that the Open challenges this week are under Advanced editing that at least 5 of the top 10 entries for the 'Something Old II' will be heavily dodged/burned/grunged for that dramatic look popular with DPC'rs currently. That puts those that are still fairly new to post-processing at a disadvantage this week... |
Looks like I was fairly close on the prediction... ;^) |
has anyone ever seen heida and anastasia in the same room at the same time...does anyone else find it odd that heida 'left' dpc and shortly thereafter 'anastasia' returned...
hmmmmm ;-) |
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04/26/2006 08:58:01 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
... I can almost guarantee you now that the Open challenges this week are under Advanced editing that at least 5 of the top 10 entries for the 'Something Old II' will be heavily dodged/burned/grunged for that dramatic look popular with DPC'rs currently. That puts those that are still fairly new to post-processing at a disadvantage this week... |
Looks like I was fairly close on the prediction... ;^) |
Look Iâm not trying to be controversial or rude but really âso whatâ if people were disadvantaged because they were new to post processing. If you are new to post-processing well this was the perfect time to learn a bit more.
People continue to complain about a disadvantage be it equipment, experience, use of beautiful models, having studios or whatever it really does not matter just get what you can out of the site and put back in what you can.
This challenge gave an opportunity for non-paying members to have a go at advanced rules which is a good thing.
I just wish people would see the positives instead of always seeing the negatives.
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04/26/2006 10:12:19 AM · #74 |
| Knew I should have remmed that part of the quote. ;^) At least I got the prediction part pretty close. |
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