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03/10/2006 11:14:43 AM · #26 |
| I'm starting a pool. I say 23 more posts before this goes into the rant forum.... |
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03/10/2006 11:16:27 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm starting a pool. I say 23 more posts before this goes into the rant forum.... |
lol. well i'm done with mine... =] |
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03/10/2006 11:16:46 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm starting a pool. I say 23 more posts before this goes into the rant forum.... |
hahahah, you say 23?? well, i say 3 :)
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03/10/2006 11:17:26 AM · #29 |
alex,
Now, an idea like the Iraq war is debatable and will be forever. That we can definitely hold different opinions about. I am not terribly political. We may or may not agree on that one, but remember a few things:
1. People comprise governments
2. People make mistakes
3. Therefore governments make mistakes.
Is Iraq a mistake? I think we won't know that for many many years. I do know that a murderous dictator is gone. And that is one bright spot, I doubt anyone will ever argue.
A car can't steer straight until the car itself is in working order. And even once that car is in working order, another car with a bad axel can crash into the good working car. And then of course, that car needs to know where it is going in the first place. Point is, we all need to focus on the the cars in our garage. ones we know we can control and fix. And know where that car is going once it is on the road.
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03/10/2006 11:21:31 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
A car can't steer straight until the car itself is in working order. And even once that car is in working order, another car with a bad axel can crash into the good working car. And then of course, that car needs to know where it is going in the first place. Point is, we all need to focus on the the cars in our garage. ones we know we can control and fix. And know where that car is going once it is on the road. |
I love that analogy. I would say that a lot of people, including the current administration, think that the U.S. is some kind of magic car that doesn't need repairs and doesn't hurt people when it runs them over. I want pragmatic people in power, people who don't feel they have some divine advantage over everyone else (and are good with a wrench). |
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03/10/2006 11:22:57 AM · #31 |
no not rant, no nono nonono! I'll stop if you do. I just wanted to initially argue that America is not a country that promotes or utilizes slavery. Because it saddens me that other people of the world (and many fellow Americans) believe things that aren't true. I love many many countries across the world having traveled some. America is great too in ways. And I just wanted to put forth a solid defense of something I have never seen, experienced or been told about in all my travels in America. So there you go. Hopefully everyone doesn't despise me for putting forth debate....
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03/10/2006 11:25:34 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Hopefully everyone doesn't despise me for putting forth debate.... |
I enjoyed debating you immensely (and you're a good photographer so I don't want to piss you off!). |
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03/10/2006 11:26:10 AM · #33 |
My question is this: How did this, the original post,
Originally posted by jacambece:
This not meant to be racist, but what if some how slavery in America never ended? What would change? Last night a friend of mine brought it up and it made me think about how much stuff would be different or delayedâ€Â¦so I wanted to see what other people would say.
Cambece |
turn into a discussion about whther or not slavery was wrong/still exists and whether or not truth is relative and whether or not the whole Iraq thing should have happened?
I'm not sure, but I think the OP wasn't intending this to be a moral discussion, but rather an "alternative history/alternative future" type of discussion. I'm curious as to where that discussion would go...
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03/10/2006 11:27:05 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Hopefully everyone doesn't despise me for putting forth debate.... |
Hell naw! Debating is my favorite american pasttime! |
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03/10/2006 11:34:47 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
alex,
Now, an idea like the Iraq war is debatable and will be forever. That we can definitely hold different opinions about. I am not terribly political. We may or may not agree on that one, but remember a few things:
1. People comprise governments
2. People make mistakes
3. Therefore governments make mistakes.
Is Iraq a mistake? I think we won't know that for many many years. I do know that a murderous dictator is gone. And that is one bright spot, I doubt anyone will ever argue.
A car can't steer straight until the car itself is in working order. And even once that car is in working order, another car with a bad axel can crash into the good working car. And then of course, that car needs to know where it is going in the first place. Point is, we all need to focus on the the cars in our garage. ones we know we can control and fix. And know where that car is going once it is on the road. |
I appreciate your comments. BUT IRAQ as I can see and many others can, is a terrible terrible mistake. Why if America sees fit shouldnt they sort out several other terrible leaders. Mugabe for instance.
I pray that they dont try to cause more (deliberate0 instability in the region with IRAN and Syria.
alex |
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03/10/2006 11:35:32 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by saracat:
turn into a discussion about whther or not slavery was wrong/still exists and whether or not truth is relative and whether or not the whole Iraq thing should have happened?
I'm not sure, but I think the OP wasn't intending this to be a moral discussion, but rather an "alternative history/alternative future" type of discussion. I'm curious as to where that discussion would go... |
inevitable huh. blame me for trying defend something. sorry.
kdkaboom,
you are hilarious. I love debating too! And its tough to get a good debate going with people who agree so looks like we are right there for future battles!
Post,
same goes with you. Debate never bothers me. It does bother me that people can't see the "light". But that is why I strive, right? Maybe one of these days people like Katy and you will come over to the side of prudence and intellectual superiority (sorry had too, now that mood is lighter). Until next time.....
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03/10/2006 11:40:40 AM · #37 |
alex,
That is a tough one, in terms of other corrupt and oppressive leaders. I at once do not want a world policing country, but want these types to stop there rampage. So we are all in tight spot then. You can't stand by while people are being murdered/killed/oppressed in any part of the world. I guess that is where I stand. And if someone or something or some country can help stop that, then that is something worth fighting for. Whether it is in our own backyard or anywhere for that matter. I guess I just truly believe in helping those in need. I try to put myself in someone's shoes who are in desperation. I can honestly say, I would want someone to help if at all possible.
Message edited by author 2006-03-10 11:41:20.
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03/10/2006 11:44:35 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
alex,
That is a tough one, in terms of other corrupt and oppressive leaders. I at once do not want a world policing country, but want these types to stop there rampage. So we are all in tight spot then. You can't stand by while people are being murdered/killed/oppressed in any part of the world. I guess that is where I stand. And if someone or something or some country can help stop that, then that is something worth fighting for. Whether it is in our own backyard or anywhere for that matter. I guess I just truly believe in helping those in need. I try to put myself in someone's shoes who are in desperation. I can honestly say, I would want someone to help if at all possible. |
Ok thats you and me. We want to help! but the American govnt are using it as a reason to cause instability in the region. It is all to do with the neo conservative ide of giving a meaning to life - the battle between good and eviltext Mr Rumsfeld and cheney, and mr dan pearl created this. Lok back at the cold war. All manufactured. |
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03/10/2006 11:45:23 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
It does bother me that people can't see the "light". |
ah, we are bothered by the same things! :) |
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03/10/2006 11:54:51 AM · #40 |
alex,
you are sounding way too much like a conspiracy theorist of a high order. You are smarter than that I am sure.
Rebuttals
There are battles between good and evil.
why: there is good and evil
The cold war was not manufactured.
why: its was a direct result of the founding of the nuclear weapon. a direct result of the conflict between communism and democracy. a direct result of a soviet worldview of imperialism (absorption of countries)
And nowhere will you find that the American government is there to intentionally cause instability. Remember, governements are simply outworking of the human mind. And it goes against human logic to intentionally cause instability.
Things are always simpler than our imaginations can conjure. Case in point is atomic theory. Everything is quite simple if you just look close enough.
Message edited by author 2006-03-10 11:56:01.
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03/10/2006 12:11:05 PM · #41 |
| 14 posts. I was off by 9, kdkaboom was off by 11. I win the pool! |
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03/10/2006 12:19:46 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by jacambece:
This not meant to be racist, but what if some how slavery in America never ended? What would change? Last night a friend of mine brought it up and it made me think about how much stuff would be different or delayedâ€Â¦so I wanted to see what other people would say.
Cambece |
It depends whether the rest of the world had abolished slavery or not. If the USA was standing alone I think they would not have the power they have now as the rest of the world would not respect them ( a danger present at the moment for other reasons.)
If they were one of several countries with slavery,this would not have altered the world view of the US.
However in both situations, I think that other moral areas would not have evolved such as acceptance of sexuality, abortion ( some states seem to be going backwards on this recently), social care and women's equality. All of these are steps forward in understanding the importance of human rights and without abolishing slavery these would not have taken their place in the moves forward the US has made. I think this would have held back the US in their economic development too.
Interesting thought.
P
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03/10/2006 12:26:41 PM · #43 |
hmm i wouldnt be on DPC, hell i wouldnt have been born period!
Originally posted by jacambece:
This not meant to be racist, but what if some how slavery in America never ended? What would change? Last night a friend of mine brought it up and it made me think about how much stuff would be different or delayedâ€Â¦so I wanted to see what other people would say.
Cambece |
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03/10/2006 12:26:42 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
alex,
you are sounding way too much like a conspiracy theorist of a high order. You are smarter than that I am sure.
Rebuttals
There are battles between good and evil.
why: there is good and evil
The cold war was not manufactured.
why: its was a direct result of the founding of the nuclear weapon. a direct result of the conflict between communism and democracy. a direct result of a soviet worldview of imperialism (absorption of countries)
And nowhere will you find that the American government is there to intentionally cause instability. Remember, governements are simply outworking of the human mind. And it goes against human logic to intentionally cause instability.
Things are always simpler than our imaginations can conjure. Case in point is atomic theory. Everything is quite simple if you just look close enough. |
Well I couldnt disagree more. You should read into the reasons behind the neo conservative plan. If you did you may understand this. I con never articulate myself well enough to convince you. But please look into it.
And it is quite simple plan to it all. POWER.
Oh and in this life - there is nothing good or bad. It is simply what your mind wants to make of it.
alex |
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03/10/2006 12:27:09 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
alex,
you are sounding way too much like a conspiracy theorist of a high order. You are smarter than that I am sure.
Rebuttals
There are battles between good and evil.
why: there is good and evil
The cold war was not manufactured.
why: its was a direct result of the founding of the nuclear weapon. a direct result of the conflict between communism and democracy. a direct result of a soviet worldview of imperialism (absorption of countries)
And nowhere will you find that the American government is there to intentionally cause instability. Remember, governements are simply outworking of the human mind. And it goes against human logic to intentionally cause instability.
Things are always simpler than our imaginations can conjure. Case in point is atomic theory. Everything is quite simple if you just look close enough. |
Well I couldnt disagree more. You should read into the reasons behind the neo conservative plan. If you did you may understand this. I con never articulate myself well enough to convince you. But please look into it.
And it is quite simple plan to it all. POWER.
Oh and in this life - there is nothing good or bad. It is simply what your mind wants to make of it.
alex |
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03/10/2006 12:32:27 PM · #46 |
I don't know.
If slavery was to thrive, I think we would of gone to war in ww2. And I think we would of been on the side of the Nazi's.
The white race thing.
I think science would of desended on how whites were naturally superior to other races.
I think that if slavery was to continue in America (CSA not USA), the world would be a very differant place.
Humanitarian rights would not exist anyplace, experimentation on humans would be commonplace, walled ghetto/prisons would be commonplace, illiteracy would be at an epidemic, technology would be for the 'pure' race only, countries that did not comply with American values would be seen as terrorist states, there would not of been a "cold war" with the soviets.....
alot of speculation, but interesting possible outcomes.
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03/10/2006 01:11:53 PM · #47 |
Interesting bit about WW2.
I wonder how the Jewish peoples would have been treated and how that would have affected the economic and social structure of the US?
Would the US have become controlling of African countries (empire building) or more isolationist?
P
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03/10/2006 01:39:54 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
All I would say is there is one true outcome:
1. There is relative truth
2. There is absoute truth
Can we agree there?
So if there is either relative truth or absolute truth, then there is only one "true" answer. |
There are a very limited number of absolute truths, and they only exist within very tightly defined frameworks. Even apparently obvious mathematical "truths" such as 1+1=2 are only true within some mathematical frameworks (it is the rules and assumptions of the framework that allow you to determine whether there is more than one true or potentially true answer). Philosophical truths are harder to come by (beyond "I am"). The only other area where absolute truth can be posited successfully is in the religious arena, but only for adherents of that religion and not a universal absolute truth.
When contemplating the subject of slavery, I think that it is very hard to identify any absolute truth, though there are many commonly held truths concerning it.
There is no precise definition of what constitutes "slavery". There is a slavery problem in the West. At worst, this constitutes people bought and sold by human traffickers as literal, old fashioned slaves. This certainly happens in the UK and I am sure most of the western world including the US.
Illegal immigrant workers appear to be treated somewhere between traditional slavery or indentured working, and an institutionalised underclass. I think that it can be interpreted as a form of modern slavery (at least when taking certain forms).
Originally posted by cutter:
if you can't live within the legal system then that means two things:
1. You are not responsible
2. Many rights are taken away from you |
I think that it is pretty shocking to hear people here suggesting that illegal immigrant workers deserve to be treated as they are. You have a law providing for a minimum pay, safe working conditions and basic worker rights for a reason: it is inhumane to treat people otherwise. Inhumane, as in dehumanising; reducing to less than human; treating people as having fundamentally different rights; creating a subset of humanity; creating a slave labour pool.
This reaction appears, to me, to be symptomatic of the arrogance for which some Americans are to some people reknowned: they are not American, and are therefore somehow a lesser species (until they become American and Americanised).
Message edited by author 2006-03-10 13:47:17.
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03/10/2006 01:45:22 PM · #49 |
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03/10/2006 01:49:05 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by kdkaboom:
legalbeagle rawks! |
I don't often have to look words up - but thanks (I think).
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