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03/10/2006 08:47:07 AM · #1 |
This not meant to be racist, but what if some how slavery in America never ended? What would change? Last night a friend of mine brought it up and it made me think about how much stuff would be different or delayedâ€Â¦so I wanted to see what other people would say.
Cambece
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03/10/2006 09:29:55 AM · #2 |
For one thing, Democrats would be a$$holes instead of Republicans, because they would still be ruling over the southern slave states, and holding the "moral conservative" position that slavery is a good thing.
For another, science would be severely hindered because it would have to hide the fact that blacks are just as human as whites are. This would severely impede genetics and medicine in general.
We also might never have joined in World War Two, since our slavery policy would make us a moral pariah to the rest of the world.
But the scenario is very hard to imagine, actually, since the US was one of the last countries to give up slavery as it was. We were way overdue. Now we're way overdue on the death penalty and we're slipping on separation of church and state (and privacy, and rule by law, and human rights...). But we'll catch up, I hope.
Message edited by author 2006-03-10 09:30:24. |
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03/10/2006 10:19:39 AM · #3 |
I don't think that would be possible unless the US was in complete shambles and never evolved to what it is today. No intelligent & civilized nation would tolerate or justify slavery.
Thus, if slavery was still around we'd be in pretty bad shape.
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03/10/2006 10:23:41 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
But the scenario is very hard to imagine, actually, since the US was one of the last countries to give up slavery as it was. |
Of course, we are one of the younger countries in teh world. In the big scheme of things.
edited to clarify -- We "got rid" of slavery just over a 100 years after declaring our independence. Other countries had slaves for hundreds of years. So, while we were one of the last, chronologically, to give it up, we were also one of the last, chronologically, to start.
does that make sense? The more I type, the more I fear it is making less and less sense.
As far as if slavery had never been abolished -- There are some of us in the South for whom life wouldn't have been a lot different -- there simply weren't a great number of slaves in the Southern Appalachians.
Message edited by author 2006-03-10 10:27:26. |
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03/10/2006 10:28:25 AM · #5 |
I think slavery is still alive (in a way) in america.
With a lot of illegal workers here, all willing to work hard for peanuts, that to me, is a form of slavery where their bosses (masters) abuse the hell out of them. |
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03/10/2006 10:40:41 AM · #6 |
Slavery is NOT alive in America. Top 10 most ignorant things I have heard this year. And I mean in no way.
illegal workers working hard for peanuts is a worthless comment. Because they are ILLEGAL. You see. They shouldn't even be paid, let alone live in a country illegally.
Bosses do not equate to masters. I mean seriously.....Is this person serious.
Karmat: I understand completely what you mean in terms of 100 years after foundation we begin the abolishment. I think that is commendable on America's part.
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03/10/2006 10:43:22 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Slavery is NOT alive in America. Top 10 most ignorant things I have heard this year. And I mean in no way.
illegal workers working hard for peanuts is a worthless comment. Because they are ILLEGAL. You see. They shouldn't even be paid, let alone live in a country illegally.
Bosses do not equate to masters. I mean seriously.....Is this person serious. |
Hey, it's just one person's opinion, or make it two - because I happen to agree (to some extent) that slavery (in some form, and there are many forms) is still present (to some degree) in America (and our outlying properties).
I'm feeling very parenthetical today.
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03/10/2006 10:47:24 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Slavery is NOT alive in America. Top 10 most ignorant things I have heard this year. And I mean in no way.
illegal workers working hard for peanuts is a worthless comment. Because they are ILLEGAL. You see. They shouldn't even be paid, let alone live in a country illegally.
Bosses do not equate to masters. I mean seriously.....Is this person serious.
Karmat: I understand completely what you mean in terms of 100 years after foundation we begin the abolishment. I think that is commendable on America's part. |
Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it doesn't happen... It's true that people are taking advantage of illegal immigrants in the US...
I don't like the fact that there are so many illegal immigrants, mostly because I think that if you have a law you should enforce it, but I also don't like the fact that they are being taken advantage of... Talk about a recession of morals... |
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03/10/2006 10:50:05 AM · #9 |
Slavery is a precise and demanding word. You can't wrap up a democratic free country into the tight oppressive atmosphere we call slavery. You won't find one intelligent commentator or historian who substantiate your two claims.
I would not consider myself an American patriot. But I would consider myself a supporter of truth. And these assertions offend me and should anyone with a leaning towards decency.
i would be equally offended if someone accused Britain or Spain or Germany or Greece or Brazil or any other free democratic state of such atrocities. So don't patronize yourself by using words like somewhat or clarify with parentheses.
Slavery was abolished. Period. No form remains.
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03/10/2006 10:54:47 AM · #10 |
..
Message edited by author 2007-08-14 08:10:39.
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03/10/2006 10:54:48 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Slavery is a precise and demanding word. You can't wrap up a democratic free country into the tight oppressive atmosphere we call slavery. You won't find one intelligent commentator or historian who substantiate your two claims.
I would not consider myself an American patriot. But I would consider myself a supporter of truth. And these assertions offend me and should anyone with a leaning towards decency.
i would be equally offended if someone accused Britain or Spain or Germany or Greece or Brazil or any other free democratic state of such atrocities. So don't patronize yourself by using words like somewhat or clarify with parentheses.
Slavery was abolished. Period. No form remains. |
Hey, we're all allowed our opinions and belief in varying degrees of truth. What's more, each of us could find a "historian" or smarty pants to substantiate our claims. That's the easy part! Don't get so boiled, it's just personal opinion. Truth is multi-faceted.
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03/10/2006 10:56:55 AM · #12 |
Tryals,
please give me one example of slavery in America.
i don't like people being taken advantage of either. However, with laws come responsibility. And if you can't live within the legal system then that means two things:
1. You are not responsible
2. Many rights are taken away from you
So, that is like saying an steriod abusing person running the 100 meter dash should be treated equally within the parameters of the race. No. They break the rules and are treated differently. Either disqualified or treated with endless speculation and "abuse" because of their lack of living within the borders of rules.
The problem of individual companies who continue to employ illegal persons is entirely seperate from the U.S. stance on the issue. Laws exists. Not everyone is lawful.
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03/10/2006 10:59:05 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Slavery is a precise and demanding word. You can't wrap up a democratic free country into the tight oppressive atmosphere we call slavery. You won't find one intelligent commentator or historian who substantiate your two claims.
I would not consider myself an American patriot. But I would consider myself a supporter of truth. And these assertions offend me and should anyone with a leaning towards decency.
i would be equally offended if someone accused Britain or Spain or Germany or Greece or Brazil or any other free democratic state of such atrocities. So don't patronize yourself by using words like somewhat or clarify with parentheses.
Slavery was abolished. Period. No form remains. |
Well said.
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03/10/2006 10:59:40 AM · #14 |
truth is not relative kdkaboom. An opinion cannot trump fact. A opinion ceases to be one when it is based on falsehood. It is then a falsehood as well and should be dismissed. And most importantly there are not varying degrees of truth. There are varying degrees of comprehension. There are varying degrees of perception. But not truth itself.
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03/10/2006 10:59:53 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
You can't wrap up a democratic free country into the tight oppressive atmosphere we call slavery. You won't find one intelligent commentator or historian who substantiate your two claims. |
I wish this statement were true, but it's completely false. The United States is regularly, almost automatically, called a "democratic free country" even during its slavery years.
Originally posted by Cutter:
I understand completely what you mean in terms of 100 years after foundation we begin the abolishment. I think that is commendable on America's part. |
This is the first time I've heard America's timing of its abolition of slavery, almost 100 years after it declared that "all men are created equal" and only after a brutal civil war, as "commendable". Yes, other countries existed long before the U.S., but the U.S. was one of the first "democratic free countries," so the timing argument is bogus. I'm amazed at people who can't admit that the U.S. made any mistakes.
Message edited by author 2006-03-10 11:00:37. |
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03/10/2006 11:03:43 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
truth is not relative kdkaboom. An opinion cannot trump fact. A opinion ceases to be one when it is based on falsehood. It is then a falsehood as well and should be dismissed. And most importantly there are not varying degrees of truth. There are varying degrees of comprehension. There are varying degrees of perception. But not truth itself. |
See, opinion: it is my opinion that truth IS relative, depending on who's spouting the opinion. And, sorry, fact and history can be skewed, rewritten, distorted, and downright covered up. I do agree that varying degrees apply to comprehension and perception as well, but I am a firm anti-absolutist, so therefore it also applies to truth.
Stalemate?
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03/10/2006 11:04:44 AM · #17 |
post,
I believe that slavery was a tremendous scar on the face of US history. I was commending the curve of understanding that America developed. We can't argue retroactively. We weren't alive then. I have only studid these things. I was commending the fact America was able to recognize its faults 100 years after the country was founded. And if you actually take the time to read America's history, many many intelligent and influential people hated to look upon the face of slavery because even at the time was a nasty aspect of the young country. All my arguments are about America and how she is now.
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03/10/2006 11:08:21 AM · #18 |
kdkaboom,
You are funny and I am not all "riled" up because we disagree. Actually, your stalemate made me laugh. Stalemate it is, fellow DPCers.
However, you could not prove relative truth whereas I could prove absolute truth. But another time huh.
All I would say is there is one true outcome:
1. There is relative truth
2. There is absoute truth
Can we agree there?
So if there is either relative truth or absolute truth, then there is only one "true" answer.
And if you feel there is relative truth, and you are absolutely sure of that, then you are violating the laws of non-contradiction. You are saying your view of relative truth is absolute, thus proving absolute truth exists.
Message edited by author 2006-03-10 11:09:18.
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03/10/2006 11:08:51 AM · #19 |
LOL! You've got to be joking! To say truth (right or wrong) is relative is a bit ridiculous don't you think? It's a slippery slope. Is murder right? Or wrong? Is slavery right? Or wrong?
Has to be one or the other. Everything will have an absolute truth. People just don't always get it right no matter how loud they say that they are.
As Cutter said, an opinion doesn't make it a fact. It's my opinion that I should get things for free so I go into store and steal a new 30D. Hey, it's my opinion that it's OK. Slippery slope. You can't pick and choose what it applies to.
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03/10/2006 11:08:52 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
And if you actually take the time to read America's history... |
Well, that's pretty presumptuous!
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03/10/2006 11:08:56 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
And if you actually take the time to read America's history, many many intelligent and influential people hated to look upon the face of slavery because even at the time was a nasty aspect of the young country. All my arguments are about America and how she is now. |
Well, "how she is now" is that many many intelligent and influential people hate to look upon the face of what she is doing on the world stage and to her own people. And they are speaking up. And God bless America for that. And I commend America for that, too. |
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03/10/2006 11:09:18 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
post,
I believe that slavery was a tremendous scar on the face of US history. I was commending the curve of understanding that America developed. We can't argue retroactively. We weren't alive then. I have only studid these things. I was commending the fact America was able to recognize its faults 100 years after the country was founded. And if you actually take the time to read America's history, many many intelligent and influential people hated to look upon the face of slavery because even at the time was a nasty aspect of the young country. All my arguments are about America and how she is now. |
sorry but the American govnt is still making terrible mistakes. One word - IRAQ
and so is ours by following.
Message edited by author 2006-03-10 11:10:59. |
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03/10/2006 11:11:56 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by sdunsmoor:
Everything will have an absolute truth. People just don't always get it right no matter how loud they say that they are. |
Maybe there is an absolute truth, but as Jack Nicholson says,
"You can't handle the TRUTH!"
and neither can I. So we muddle through as best we can. |
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03/10/2006 11:12:23 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
Tryals,
please give me one example of slavery in America.
i don't like people being taken advantage of either. However, with laws come responsibility. And if you can't live within the legal system then that means two things:
1. You are not responsible
2. Many rights are taken away from you
So, that is like saying an steriod abusing person running the 100 meter dash should be treated equally within the parameters of the race. No. They break the rules and are treated differently. Either disqualified or treated with endless speculation and "abuse" because of their lack of living within the borders of rules.
The problem of individual companies who continue to employ illegal persons is entirely seperate from the U.S. stance on the issue. Laws exists. Not everyone is lawful. |
OK for starts, I really don't feel like doing this, but...
I was not saying that slavery in the form of the pysical ownership of one person by another exists in Amercia. My 'illegal' remark was aimed at your comment about the illegal workers example being "worth peanuts."
Actually, that's pretty much where my whole post ws aimed. BUT, slavery doesn't have to take on physical, like it is in the history books, attributes to exist, either.
Illegal immigrants are brought across US borders by the droves with hopes, dreams, and promosies of a better life. When they arrive they become indentured, if you will to whoever brought them across, or to the lifestyle the hope to live. They are desparate to work, they will work for anyone, for wages well below what the US government has deemed adequate, in conditions that are well below the minimum safety standards that companies are expected to provide for their employees.
I lived in New Orleans until shortly after the hurricane. Once reconstruction began, there were tons of construction/demo teams setting up camp in the area. I was appalled by the conditions provided to the immigrants working there. There were mixed teams of citizens and non-citizens that were treated entirely different based on their background.
Is this slavery? I think it gets pretty darn close. Could the immigrants go home? yes. Will they ever? no. The life they are living in the states often times helps provide income, FOOD, for their familes back home. they moved to the states with the hope of being able to feed their families, and so they put up with the abuse. essentially, it becomes an implied ownership of one human over another...
As far as everyone that breaks law getting caught and justice being served-- you must be kidding! Again, back to New Orleans, during the weeks after the storms, it was common knowledge that semis full of illegal immigrants were mysteriously making it through the border and arriving in New Orleans. Did you hear what I just said? I talked to mexicans, people that I worked with, that told me how they essentially drove through the border, without papers of any sort.
Anyways, in the end, it's all about opinion... I defientely have mine. you obviously have yours...
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03/10/2006 11:14:10 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
kdkaboom,
You are funny and I am not all "riled" up because we disagree. Actually, your stalemate made me laugh. Stalemate it is, fellow DPCers.
However, you could not prove relative truth whereas I could prove absolute truth. But another time huh.
All I would say is there is one true outcome:
1. There is relative truth
2. There is absoute truth
Can we agree there?
So if there is either relative truth or absolute truth, then there is only one "true" answer.
And if you feel there is relative truth, and you are absolutely sure of that, then you are violating the laws of non-contradiction. You are saying your view of relative truth is absolute, thus proving absolute truth exists. |
Damn. That's the same thing my dad says to me when I start on my relative truth thing. :)
I can't come at any of this from some philosophically proper standpoint. I can only come at this from a realistic human perspective: everyone has a different view of the world, of truth as compared to their lives, etc. So I say that YES, there are quite a few people that would agree slavery is still in existence in some form. So many people would say THEY are slaves to ________. The master would never concur ahaha.
This is a pointless argument anyway. Your truth, my truth - fine. Just not "everybody's" truth. I don't see how it matters here anyway. You're defining slavery on your own terms. There are many levels of definition, in my little world of "all's relative!"
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