Alternative & New Age Therapies - DPChallenge Forums

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

03/07/2006 09:45:38 AM · #1

Okay. I am a bit quiet again so I thought that I would see if anyone wants to discuss the issues surrounding alternative & new age therapies. By this I mean everything that is outside mainstream science, from Acupuncture (edge of mainstream) to Aroma Therapy and Reflexology (enjoyed by many) to Spiritual Healing (believed by many) and to Numerology and Horoscopes (to me, utterly bizarre!).

I have mixed views on this subject, and for me, the debate falls into the following main issues:

(1) accuracy of therapies (ie do they do what they say they do?); and

(2) effectiveness of therapies (ie, regardless of what the therapist says s/he is doing, does it work?).

The reason for my interest is twofold.

First, I watched two interesting BBC programs presented by Professor Kathy Sykes looking into the scientific background to certain new age therapies (one on acupuncture and the second on mystical/spiritual healing - I missed the third). Website for the program is here: //www.open2.net/alternativemedicine/ .

Acupuncture: Sykes' conclusions were that deep needling acupuncture appears to have an effect on the mind (per simultaneous MRI scanning under controlled conditions) and the effect is that it stimulates the mind so as to dull pain. (Link here: //news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm ). She could not identify the direct causal link, but observed an indirect reaction.

Spiritual Healing: Sykes interviewed people who genuinely appeared to have gotten better as a consequence of the purported spiritual healing process. She investigated one possible explanation, which is the power of the placebo effect. In particular, she interviewed a surgeon who had carried out an experiment in an old people's home with people who had acute arthritis in the knee. He performed surgery on half of the group and sham surgery on the other half (opening up the knee and fiddling around to make it look like he was doing something, without actually doing anything surgical). Both groups recovered a high degree of movement in their knees with equal success: it did not seem to matter if the surgery was real or sham! Those who had sham surgery and to whom this was revealed after the trial, refused to believe that they had not had the surgery itself (but regardless, the benefits continued). This was interpreted as evidence for the surprisingly strong effect of the placebo. The conclusion was that one explanation for people who appeared to have been healed by spiritual healing may have benefited from this observable placebo effect.

My second reason for interest is that I was in a car crash a couple of weeks ago when a white van rear ended my car (my beautiful Karmann Ghia!). I have been having physiotherapy for whiplash and lower back pain. Physiotherapy is itself a relatively modern style of treatment involving vigorous massage, stretching and manipulation of the body. My physiotherapist recommended acupuncture and performed it on me. My physio claimed that he used it based on principles of modern physiotherapy (not any ancient Chinese mysticism), but claimed that it stimulated bloodflow to the relevant areas. I was sceptical, but it did seem to have some effect: I noticed a strange sensation, it was calming and soothing. This could be the placebo effect, the effect of his explanation of bloodflow increase, or the K Sykes explanation of mental conditioning to pain. Whichever, it appears to have helped slightly.

My own view on the subject is as follows.

Alternative therapies, to the extent that they work, almost certainly do not work for the reasons that have traditionally been ascribed to them.

Some of them are, however, effective for other reasons.

Where there is an observable and qualitative improvement in the subject's health, there is a reasonable argument for the permitting and possibly promoting remedies where the direct causal link cannot yet be identified. I would class modern acupuncture in this class.

The opposite class is areas of therapy that can be shown to have an extremely tenuous link with reality, there is no argument for promoting it. I would go so far as to say that "therapists" should (in an ideal world, and acknowledging a lack of practicality) be prevented from charging a fee for such "therapies". This would ban, for example, premium rate horoscope telephone lines, the practice of numerology, practices such as candling, reflexology and aromatherapy (at least to the extent that they are advertised as being for more than therapeutic purposes).

There should (to the extent that there is not already) be an absolute ban on practitioners of these therapies encouraging the use of the alternative therapy to the exclusion of scientifically demonstrably effective remedies. I have heard anecdotal examples of people selling almond oils as a cancer cure, for example, recommending it as a full alternative to surgery for removal of a tumour.

For me, the problematic area is the extent to which something that is probably effective for no reason other than the placebo effect (but it is effective for probably that reason) should be allowed or recommended. My gut reaction is that it should not be permitted to continue as advertised (especially for a fee) because it is a fraud, but the logical answer may be to recommend it if it works.

There are some interesting articles, with which I tend to have some sympathy from a deeply sceptical viewpoint at //www.quackwatch.org/ .

Any thoughts?

Riponlady

Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ35

03/07/2006 11:56:03 AM · #2

Matthew, you know my thoughts on this but for others, I will outline them in the hope of stimulating more discussion.
To begin with, if it works, does it matter WHY it works? As long as the effect is there and people gain from it them, for me, it is a useful addition to seeing a doctor of medicine. In no way, except after all avenues had been explored, would I recommend these therapies in isolation.

One of my reasons for believing that certain therapies can be beneficial is that I have seen them work on animals who have no understanding of whether they are being offered mainstream veterinary medicines or alternative therapies. Our own labrador suddenly gained a new lease of life when she began to wear a magnetic collar, something I have also seen effective on horses with tendon trouble. I have also used pressure point massage, which can be acupuncture points, to calm a horse to the point of making it fall asleep!

John suffered from an injury that took him from playing county level badminton to not being able to hold a pen! Months of pain were not improved by mainstream drugs or injections but within a fortnight of taking homeopathic medicines, he was back playing badminton. Coincidence? Maybe he would have got better anyway but it is something to ponder. ( In fact we have used the remedy often since for minor injuries and the injury has improved.)

I also have had acupuncture and it helped without drugs which is a good thing in my book. I take garlic to help my cholestrol and have used St John's Wort for depression. Many natural remedies are the basis for drugs so perhaps we should consider these more seriously.

Horoscopes? No I don't believe them but can't help but read them ( and Matt you are a typical Libran!!!!) But are they doing any harm? Spiritual healing? I think the placebo effect is true - but the spiritual healing is the catalyst that makes the body heal itself.

If people want to use these therapies and they are not forced into doing so and are aware that they are not scientifically proven, then why not let them use them?

My thoughts.
P

moodville

Nikon D100

03/07/2006 12:12:20 PM · #3

Horoscopes and numerology isnt what I consider to be in the same category as alternative or new age therapy. There is a science to them and a lot of people have found them to be very enlightening, but I wouldnt say it helped someone out of any physhical ailments. They can certainly help mentality, if you believe, but that's the same as religion and any other faith-based belief system.

03/07/2006 02:13:10 PM · #4

Originally posted by moodville:

I am not so sure. They can promise better health (or wealth) through action based on divination from numbers and the stars. That is not far from promising better health through aromatherapy or reflexology.

I disagree with the terminology that you use (that there is a "science" to them) - but I think that I understand that you mean that there is a methodology to them (not an actual scientific basis).

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

03/07/2006 02:27:55 PM · #5

Originally posted by Riponlady:

But are they doing any harm?

Economic harm: potentially cost without benefit;

Direct harm: some remedies are not tested as medicines are and will adversely affect health;

Indirect harm: delay or failure to obtain formal medical assistance;

Mental harm:-
---- misplaced trust in people who may not have the subject's interests at heart
---- potentially drawing people into illegality revolving around unlicensed drugs
---- distortion of perspective as to biological good and harm (making modern medicine and "drugs" seem "bad", while makig all natural remedies seem "good" even if the natural remedy is harmful and the refined modern medicine is beneficial)

Harm to society: distorting widespread beliefs about the purpose of modern medicine and potentially perpetuating myths about quack remedies.

[precised from this article: //www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/harmquack.html ]

Originally posted by riponlady:

One of my reasons for believing that certain therapies can be beneficial is that I have seen them work on animals who have no understanding of whether they are being offered mainstream veterinary medicines or alternative therapies.

The weak link in these observations is often the human one. We observe the differences, and our expectation will (not "can") affect our perceptions and can do so dramatically. Hence the need for double blind trials in order to preserve objectivity.

moodville

Nikon D100

03/07/2006 03:25:36 PM · #6

Originally posted by legalbeagle:

Originally posted by moodville:
Horoscopes and numerology isnt what I consider to be in the same category as alternative or new age therapy. There is a science to them and a lot of people have found them to be very enlightening, but I wouldnt say it helped someone out of any physhical ailments. They can certainly help mentality, if you believe, but that's the same as religion and any other faith-based belief system.

I am not so sure. They can promise better health (or wealth) through action based on divination from numbers and the stars. That is not far from promising better health through aromatherapy or reflexology.

I disagree with the terminology that you use (that there is a "science" to them) - but I think that I understand that you mean that there is a methodology to them (not an actual scientific basis).

If they promise better health or wealth then they're selling the product. They can both be good guides in a generic sense just like tarot reading. There is also a theory that positive thinking and reinforcement is a good benefit to health. If someone does a reading, whether horoscope, numerology, or tarot (I know we're not talking tarot but I'm throwing it in as a similar) and suggests that certain paths will bring about health and wealth and those paths do not do harm to the person or to others and is legal yadda yadda then I do not see any danger with it. Most of it is generic but aimed at telling someone they CAN do what it takes to meet their goals and then that person is motivated to reach those goals.

As for the term 'science' maybe it is a methodology instead. Horoscopes use astrology and numerology use mathematical formula like Pythagorean and Chaldean.

Riponlady

Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ35

03/07/2006 05:43:30 PM · #7

The danger in damning all alternative medicines is in losing those that are helpful because the drug agencies have not tested them to the degree that NICE require. Already many useful mainstream drugs are not in use because they are waiting for NICE approval. If you were to require that all alternative medicines were subject to the strenuous testing, many of them would never reach patients. These medicines have been used for generations without causing ill effects even if you deny their worth.
Economic harm? Harm to whom? Those that choose to buy these remedies have other routes to take via the National Health which is comparatively cheaper. The fact they buy the remedies in addition or in preference to this indicates they are not happy with mainstream prescriptions handed out. Free choice - to deny people is taking the \"nanny state \" too far.

Direct harm? Any item sold to be taken by people cannot harm them by law ( treading on dicey ground here with you!) You may consider these do not do any good but they do not cause harm eg are not poisonous if taken correctly. Any drug will cause harm if taken incorrectly.

Mental harm - what therapies taken by people of their own free will are illegal?
Again nanny state mentality if you want to protect everyone against charletans - yes there will always be fraudsters, and education and information not legal minefields are needed.
I agree that there can be a degree of considering all drugs are bad - you know how much John dislikes taking any medicine - however that is why it is important that doctors and alternative therapists work together as is now happening with acupuncture etc.

Harm to society? - No smoke without fire! The reason many of these so called \"quack\" remedies are believed in is that people have found them beneficial and passed the message on! If they hadn\'t been championed by those they identified their uses, you wouldn\'t have had acupuncture recently as part of mainstream medical practice! Twenty plus years ago acupuncture was just one of those \"quack\" remedies.

Sensible, responsible use of alternative medicines can benefit the health of the nation and alieviate the demands on the health system.

Proof of animal health improvement through the use of alternative medicines is documented by vets in many cases and use of these is often suggested.
P

03/08/2006 10:22:27 AM · #8

Originally posted by moodville:

I suppose that my problem is that there is an insidious cost to the propagation of practices such as tarot card reading and reflexology: I outlined some of them in my last post. What may seem to some to be "a bit of harmless fun" is taken very seriously by others. People can make life-changing decisions based on these practices, which have no grounding in reality.

Originally posted by moodville:

As for the term 'science' maybe it is a methodology instead. Horoscopes use astrology and numerology use mathematical formula like Pythagorean and Chaldean.

I would hasten to add that applying a formula to data does not give any meaningful results if the data or the underlying premise are flawed. Since relative number systems and celestial alignments are imposed upon the universe by man, the data used in both of these practices is fundamentally irrelevant to the resulting predictions. Neither has any validity as a consequence.