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02/19/2006 09:34:01 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by ursula:
While looking at Duotones in PSCS, the presets, there is a whole folder full of Grey/Black Duotone presets. Going by that I would say that B/Ws are OK for the challenge, rating the lower would be rather petty IMO. |
When Ansel Adams' "B&W" images are reproduced by offset (for calendars, posters, etc.), they use a special quad-tone combination of four gray inks. I don't know about now, but a few years ago there was only one shop near San Diego which did all of that printing ... Bear_Music could probably provide more technical detail : )
Message edited by author 2006-02-19 21:34:33. |
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02/19/2006 09:35:39 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by ursula:
While looking at Duotones in PSCS, the presets, there is a whole folder full of Grey/Black Duotone presets. Going by that I would say that B/Ws are OK for the challenge, rating the lower would be rather petty IMO. |
Man, am I the only one here?
On the other hand, when I look at Duotones in CS2, there are no B&W options and in fact having only black as the ink is listed by them as "monotone".
Yanko, the reason I think they mean something else is my understanding of duotone. It doesn't compute and so I was trying to reconcile things. I agree it does look that B&W seems to be listed as an example. I also agree that B&W is not generally accepted as a "duotone". It's a paradox and I'm just trying to find my way to the answer. |
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02/19/2006 09:39:15 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by ursula:
While looking at Duotones in PSCS, the presets, there is a whole folder full of Grey/Black Duotone presets. Going by that I would say that B/Ws are OK for the challenge, rating the lower would be rather petty IMO. |
Man, am I the only one here?
On the other hand, when I look at Duotones in CS2, there are no B&W options and in fact having only black as the ink is listed by them as "monotone".
Yanko, the reason I think they mean something else is my understanding of duotone. It doesn't compute and so I was trying to reconcile things. I agree it does look that B&W seems to be listed as an example. I also agree that B&W is not generally accepted as a "duotone". It's a paradox and I'm just trying to find my way to the answer. |
But you can use Black and grey for a duotone.
Also, a tone other than grey may be very slight, and it may look as B/W on many monitors, while in fact being a very legitimage duotone.
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02/19/2006 09:40:16 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by ursula:
While looking at Duotones in PSCS, the presets, there is a whole folder full of Grey/Black Duotone presets. Going by that I would say that B/Ws are OK for the challenge, rating the lower would be rather petty IMO. |
Man, am I the only one here?
On the other hand, when I look at Duotones in CS2, there are no B&W options and in fact having only black as the ink is listed by them as "monotone".
Yanko, the reason I think they mean something else is my understanding of duotone. It doesn't compute and so I was trying to reconcile things. I agree it does look that B&W seems to be listed as an example. I also agree that B&W is not generally accepted as a "duotone". It's a paradox and I'm just trying to find my way to the answer. |
I think you are relying on the title "duotone II" rather then the challenge description. Try reading the description without the title, makes more sense then. |
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02/19/2006 09:40:46 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by ursula:
While looking at Duotones in PSCS, the presets, there is a whole folder full of Grey/Black Duotone presets. Going by that I would say that B/Ws are OK for the challenge, rating the lower would be rather petty IMO. |
When Ansel Adams' "B&W" images are reproduced by offset (for calendars, posters, etc.), they use a special quad-tone combination of four gray inks. I don't know about now, but a few years ago there was only one shop near San Diego which did all of that printing ... Bear_Music could probably provide more technical detail : ) |
I know. Gives the best B/W reproduction that way. Isn't it that some of the newer printers have a variety of black inks to give better b/w prints (which would be a similar idea)?
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02/19/2006 09:42:30 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by ursula:
But you can use Black and grey for a duotone.
Also, a tone other than grey may be very slight, and it may look as B/W on many monitors, while in fact being a very legitimage duotone. |
I can't use black and grey in the photoshop "Duotone" function.
I thought of the very faint tone and made mine quite obvious so as to avoid that question.
I just sent an inquiry to Langdon, but now I wonder if it isn't going to generally go to SC instead. (I used the help/notify function). If you see it, can you direct it to him? If the DPC gods tell me up is down, then so be it... |
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02/19/2006 09:49:03 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That being said, I will rate truly B&W pictures lower. |
When the challenge description explicitly includes B&W? |
You didn't read my post close enough. I think the challenge description was not actually including B&W but inarticulately describing the second ink in a sepia.
Sepia = Black/white + sepia
It doesn't make much sense that B&W would be included in the term duotone. However, I agree the wording is confusing and that is why I am merely limiting my ceiling on B&W shots rather than giving them a DNMC vote. |
Are your 10 pairs of shoes evenly matched and aligned perfectly in your closet? Maybe you are just a tad anal-retentive? Perhaps the scientist in you, this day, overtook the artist in you? Do you have the same thing for dinner on any given day twice per week? Do you sit in the same chair each evening, read the same paper etc etc? Are all of the bills in your wallet facing the same way and in denominational order? Have you used the same brand of toothpaste/deoderant/soap for the last 20 years?
Drachoo- you are very talented and definitely an important component of this site- but you have to learn to relax..... relax.... its ok. Black and white IS duotone- its says it right in the description.... now take a deep breath... everything will be alright. |
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02/19/2006 09:53:41 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
On the other hand, when I look at Duotones in CS2, there are no B&W options and in fact having only black as the ink is listed by them as "monotone". |
Notice that Monotone is one of the choices within "Duotone Mode" : ) |
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02/19/2006 09:54:38 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
On the other hand, when I look at Duotones in CS2, there are no B&W options and in fact having only black as the ink is listed by them as "monotone". |
Notice that Monotone is one of the choices within "Duotone Mode" : ) |
Right, and ain't that a bitch? But so are tritone and quadtone. Are they legit for this challenge? |
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02/19/2006 09:55:27 PM · #35 |
| haha, jrjr, I think "anal-retentive" is one of the last terms people who know me would come up with. I'm a little too relaxed at times... |
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02/19/2006 09:58:01 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
haha, jrjr, I think "anal-retentive" is one of the last terms people who know me would come up with. I'm a little too relaxed at times... |
yeah right...
Are we fooling ourselves...?? |
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02/19/2006 10:00:09 PM · #37 |
| And this isn't one of them? An No Tri and Quad tones don't make it Duotone. But if they make it Black and White its still Duotone that option is there. Besides there are 270+ entries as of now in the challenge, a little stupid to be nick picking now... Judge the image, not what you think should be duotone thats only not B/W... |
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02/19/2006 10:01:41 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
And this isn't one of them? An No Tri and Quad tones don't make it Duotone. But if they make it Black and White its still Duotone that option is there. Besides there are 270+ entries as of now in the challenge, a little stupid to be nick picking now... Judge the image, not what you think should be duotone thats only not B/W... |
Another vote for anal-retentive |
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02/19/2006 10:04:48 PM · #39 |
Here's a duotone using Black and PANTONE Warm Gray 3 CVU as the duotone colors. Of course it has to be converted back to RGB before saving in JPEG, so if you wanna get really technical there will be no legitimate "duotones" submitted. I used Photoshop 5.0.
Message edited by author 2006-02-19 22:06:23. |
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02/19/2006 10:11:33 PM · #40 |
Hi,
I remember seeing real duotones when I was in high school (almost 50 years ago). My mother worked for a printing company that did mostly offset printing. The standard printing technology of that day produced images that were pale imitations of the silver prints that we were making in the darkroom on Agfa Portriga Rapid.
But there was a way to make much better images with offset printing. They made a second plate of the image and then ran the paper through the press a second time with a different (but also dark) ink color. The result was an image with much richer tonality. The color of the second ink could also make the result appear to be warm (with a sepia tone) or cold (with a blue tone). They did not do this very often--very few of their customers wanted to pay the much greater price of printing twice.
Since none of us are doing offset printing, none of the images that will be submitted for this challenge are actually duotone images. What we are doing is imitating the duotone process by adding a second color to a b&w image.
In rating the images, what I will be looking for is b&w images with the rich tonality characteristic of the duotone process. It doesn't matter to me whether they have an obvious color tone (sepia, blue, or whatever) or not; real duotones were often done with two similar black inks so that the result looked more like a straight silver print than a toned image.
--Dan |
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02/19/2006 10:12:14 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Here's a duotone using Black and PANTONE Warm Gray 3 CVU as the duotone colors. Of course it has to be converted back to RGB before saving in JPEG, so if you wanna get really technical there will be no legitimate "duotones" submitted. I used Photoshop 5.0.
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OK Drachoo- Reality should be shaking your shoulder as you doze. Get it? You are being obstinate and , yes, obsessive compulsive, anal-retentive. Sorry I had to be the one to say it... |
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02/19/2006 10:20:32 PM · #42 |
Ha, jrjr, I was just coming over until I read your post. but now...NEVER!!!
Just kidding. Actually, wheeledd's realworld talk is fairly informative.
Let's just review a could real-world facts though...
1) My voting, whatever I decide in the end, is going to make practically ZERO difference in the results. Especially since I said I was a long way from just handing out 3- scores for B&W.
2) The description says "duotone". We know from may past challenges that many people NEVER read the description. So don't be surprised if you get comments from people saying "B&W is not a duotone". They didn't read this post and become poisoned by that infernal DrAchoo. They just read "duotone" and went with their understanding.
General's pic is interesting. Maybe I'll just go along because I can't be sure that there isn't a faint tone to many pictures. I'm not going to be saving things and whipping the sample tool across them looking for a tone...
Actually I went back the CS2, they do have "gray" tones squished at the very bottom. However, I'm guessing gray is a misnomer as a true gray could never be "warm" or "cold".
So it's been a great argument...quite civil by DPC standards, and I'll stew on things. In the end, we all know the "voter is right" and so I'll vote the way I want. |
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02/19/2006 10:21:27 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
On the other hand, when I look at Duotones in CS2, there are no B&W options and in fact having only black as the ink is listed by them as "monotone". |
Notice that Monotone is one of the choices within "Duotone Mode" : ) |
Right, and ain't that a bitch? But so are tritone and quadtone. Are they legit for this challenge? |
No, not monotones. Under Duotone Presets (use the "Load" button), there's three folders: "PANTONE(R) Duotones", "Process Duotones", and "Gray-Black Duotones". It's not Monotones, it's Duotones, but one of the options is a gray. Or at least it is called gray and looks rather gray, although the warm grays look rather brownish. It depends on the monitor you're using also, and how it is adjusted (or if it is adjusted).
Duotones are B/W with another colour added, that's true. What I think is difficult to determine is whether or not an image on your screen is actually pure absolute B/W or whether it has another colour added (maybe ever so slightly). And getting upset over it and scoring images lower because they look B/W on your screen just isn't right IMO.
Message edited by author 2006-02-19 22:25:13.
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02/19/2006 10:22:46 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by ursula:
No, not monotones. Under Duotone Presets (use the "Load" button), there's three folders: "PANTONE(R) Duotones", "Process Duotones", and "Gray-Black Duotones". It's not Monotones, it's Duotones, but one of the options is a gray. Or at least it is called gray and looks rather gray, although the warm grays look rather brownish. It depends on the monitor you're using also, and how it is adjusted (or if it is adjusted). |
I think we were typing at the same time. See my above post... |
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02/19/2006 10:25:11 PM · #45 |
For this version I used duotone colors of 0.90.100.0 (CMYK color-picker values) and Pantone Process Yellow for the second.
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02/19/2006 10:47:31 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by ursula:
No, not monotones. Under Duotone Presets (use the "Load" button), there's three folders: "PANTONE(R) Duotones", "Process Duotones", and "Gray-Black Duotones". It's not Monotones, it's Duotones, but one of the options is a gray. Or at least it is called gray and looks rather gray, although the warm grays look rather brownish. It depends on the monitor you're using also, and how it is adjusted (or if it is adjusted). |
I think we were typing at the same time. See my above post... |
Me thinks thou doth protest too much.... |
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02/19/2006 10:51:21 PM · #47 |
Hi,
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
. . . Actually, wheeledd's realworld talk is fairly informative. |
Thanks.
My memory from years ago was that duotone images often appeared to be only slightly toned or even not toned at all. The main goal in doing a duotone was to get richer blacks. But I don't trust my memories from that far back, so I did a google search. What I found was this example of a photographic image that had been printed with a real duotone process:
//www.pulliamdeffenbaugh.com/Shows-Detail.cfm?ShowsID=72
This shows an image by Bernd and Hilla Becher that was sold as part of a portfolio printed in an edition of 50. The reproduction on the web is very poor but there is no sign of any color tone that I can see.
It is clear to me that in recent years the term duotone has come to mean "colored" expecially among digital photographers. But the traditional meaning of the term certainly includes images printed with a second black that show no sign of a "color" tone.
I still have no idea how to distinguish straight b&w images from duotones done with two similar blacks. I'm not going to try. What I will look for is good images with rich tonality--whether or not they have a "color" tone.
--Dan |
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02/19/2006 11:00:47 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by jrjr:
Are your 10 pairs of shoes evenly matched and aligned perfectly in your closet? Do you have the same thing for dinner on any given day twice per week? Do you sit in the same chair each evening, read the same paper etc etc? Are all of the bills in your wallet facing the same way and in denominational order? Have you used the same brand of toothpaste/deoderant/soap for the last 20 years?
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Quit talking about me! ;)
Actually a few of these do fit. hmmmm
Maybe time for a change on some things. :D
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02/19/2006 11:04:11 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by turdave:
Originally posted by jrjr:
Are your 10 pairs of shoes evenly matched and aligned perfectly in your closet? Do you have the same thing for dinner on any given day twice per week? Do you sit in the same chair each evening, read the same paper etc etc? Are all of the bills in your wallet facing the same way and in denominational order? Have you used the same brand of toothpaste/deoderant/soap for the last 20 years?
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Quit talking about me! ;)
Actually a few of these do fit. hmmmm
Maybe time for a change on some things. :D |
Maybe you and Drachoo can start a new commisseration society... except that he is in denial... maybe you can help him.... |
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02/19/2006 11:28:09 PM · #50 |
Well, I asked my wife if I was anal-retentive. She said, "I wouldn't say you are, but you'd say I was...and that's ok with me."
She must be in denial too... ;) |
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