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01/31/2006 03:05:14 PM · #1 |
Just a thought but what with the new voting and commenting system all going into place lately how about instead of giving low scores or not voting on an image (or maybe even slating it with a terrible comment) we could have a button that states DNMC and if this gets 10% or more of the clicks on that button than the votes it is simply pulled from the challenge, i.e. challenge is 'Birds II' lets say and you always get one or two pet shots or a new baby to the family cropping in which yeah although sometimes well executed and fantastic shot some people would be miffed if the image of a dog portrait finished higher at the end of the challenge just becuase it was well executed and did ok in the comp due to the voters that award points for focus, composition, meets challenge etc.
After just seeing another thread which stated gift for long service or similar - get the chance to delete your howlers or shots that got slated becuase you were risky in submitting a shot, this would take that away from the database before the final scores were compiled if 10% of votes stated it was a DNMC image.
What do you folks think to this? Just my 2 cents anyhow :0)
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01/31/2006 03:12:42 PM · #2 |
This would be analogous to the "nuclear option" for the trolls, LOL... Image look too good to compete against? Hit that button and pray...
R. |
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01/31/2006 03:19:24 PM · #3 |
I doubt it would get used enough by legitimate users, and too much by "trolls," to produce meaningful and reliable results. It also adds confustion to the user interface, as voters may use the DNMC button when the request DQ button should be used.
As it stands now, we ask users to consider fitness to the challenge when voting. So far this has been an adequate deterrent to DNMC entries.
~Terry
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01/31/2006 03:21:44 PM · #4 |
Well is seems like a good idea the way you presented it, but the implications are too ample to ignore. What if, say, the challenge is "Fantasy," and more than 10% of the voters looking at my picture of a dog running in a field don't think that it meets the challenge? What if I also have had a fantasy of being a creature, running in a field without worries, without a job, without judgment, without... You get the idea.
My entry would be deleted based on some random clickers who didn't see my point.
There is no way to ever eliminate the subjectivity of photography, or at least not enough to override said implications. |
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01/31/2006 03:25:38 PM · #5 |
I am just trying to imagine the forums after some images got removed because of this.
Think I will go cry now.
Message edited by author 2006-01-31 15:26:44. |
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01/31/2006 04:04:22 PM · #6 |
Lets make it interesting -> If a photo gets, say, 10% of these DNMC buttons remove the photo BUT if not then you lose 10% of your votes at random and your pic needs less to get DNMC :-) That way if most people vote the pic is fine then you do yourself in. Oh I can imaging the stats - number of nukes inflicted vs. self-inflicted :-))
Obviously not a good plan if we want to keep the site usable.... |
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01/31/2006 04:11:07 PM · #7 |
Look, the best way to control trolls and other ner'do-wells is to send back an electroshock to anyone who issues more than 1 "1" "2" or "3" in any challenge. Simple.
--jrjr |
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01/31/2006 04:21:05 PM · #8 |
I think ... we need a DNMC for VOTERS not photos...gives a week vacation from DPC for anyone who pushed teh button...
usefull for those who yell DNMC and dont give the proper vote on the photo. Give the photos the score they deserve, if its a 10 but you dont think it meets the challenge... give it a 10, and then tell the photographer inteh notes... Hey this is a good photo but doenst meet the challenge...
if its a photo that needs improving... tell em where it can be improved, give them the score the photo deserves... tehn tell em .. i dont see how this fits the challenge...
But dont get high and mighty becasue you think it doesnt meet the challenge... it may meet the challenge in the photographers eyes...
Message edited by author 2006-01-31 16:21:43. |
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01/31/2006 04:28:26 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Di:
Give the photos the score they deserve, if its a 10 but you dont think it meets the challenge... give it a 10, and then tell the photographer inteh notes... |
Why? That's not how the rules say to vote.
The challenge isn't to meet the challenge in the photographer's eyes. Hell, in my eyes, all my photos are a 10. So does that mean everyone should vote them a 10? I think not. We don't ask for feedback according to what we think. I don't enter challenges so that people can tell me how well I think I met the challenge. That's not the point. |
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01/31/2006 04:35:47 PM · #10 |
what in heck are you taking about ???
you're saying the rules say ... that if you think a photo doesnt meet the challenge.. to give it a lousy score, even is it technically an excellent photo, and the colour is perfect, but it doenst meet the challenge.... so we shoudl give it a 5 instead of the 10 it deserves?
hrmmmm... gosh... i guess .. i better go give those that "I" see as technically excellent photos that dont quite meet the challenge all 5s instead of the 8, 9 or 10 i gave it...
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by Di:
Give the photos the score they deserve, if its a 10 but you dont think it meets the challenge... give it a 10, and then tell the photographer inteh notes... |
Why? That's not how the rules say to vote.
The challenge isn't to meet the challenge in the photographer's eyes. Hell, in my eyes, all my photos are a 10. So does that mean everyone should vote them a 10? I think not. We don't ask for feedback according to what we think. I don't enter challenges so that people can tell me how well I think I met the challenge. That's not the point. |
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01/31/2006 04:37:54 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Di:
what in heck are you taking about ???
you're saying the rules say ... that if you think a photo doesnt meet the challenge.. to give it a lousy score, even is it technically an excellent photo, and the colour is perfect, but it doenst meet the challenge.... so we shoudl give it a 5 instead of the 10 it deserves?
hrmmmm... gosh... i guess .. i better go give those that "I" see as technically excellent photos that dont quite meet the challenge all 5s instead of the 8, 9 or 10 i gave it...
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The rules say "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly." How you choose to factor that in is your choice but to ask people to ignore the fact that a photo doesn't meet the challenge in their eyes and vote it highly seems to contradict those rules. |
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01/31/2006 04:41:25 PM · #12 |
its MY opinion that those who scream DNMC on some of the photos are doing it unnecessarily...
I'm sure the ruling didnt mean to vote a 2 to a photo that shoud have been a 10...if it met the challenge
Message edited by author 2006-01-31 16:48:17. |
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01/31/2006 04:49:06 PM · #13 |
I don't think that there is an effective way to manage the real or perceived troll & dnmc threat. What we do today is fine.
An interesting experiment would be to place a limit on the number / percentage of 1-3's that a person could give out for a given challenge.
That would prevent mass low votes, but it wouldn't prevent someone from voting the best shots low to try and "even the playing field".
It's frustrating, but the reality of things is that a single vote, no matter how unfair, really doesn't add up to much. For an entry that receives 200 votes, a single vote that is 4 points below what it "deserves" (a 1 instead of a 5, 2 instead of a 6, etc) would be lowered by .02.
proof:
200 votes * average of 5.5 = 1100
199 votest * 5.5 plus 1 vote of 1 = 1095.5
1100.0 / 200 = 5.5000
1095.5 / 200 = 5.4775
And there will also be the occasional unearned "10" that swings the other way.
A bigger issue in our heads than it really is. |
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01/31/2006 04:52:11 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Di:
its MY opinion that those who scream DNMC on some of the photos are doing it unnecessarily...
I'm sure the ruling didnt mean to vote a 2 to a photo that shoud have been a 10... |
Each challenge will state its dates for voting. Users should rate each and every photograph in the challenge on a scale of 1 to 10 (with "1" being a "bad" photo and a "10" being a "good" photo). At the end of the week, the photograph holding the greatest average of votes will be declared the winner of that challenge. Second and third place photographs will also be recognized. While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. (Emphasis added)
Speaking as a voter and not as Site Council, I take that to mean that whether an entry meets the challenge should be a significant factor in my vote. I'm very permissive in terms of what I consider to meet the challenge, but if I either cannot connect the entry to the challenge, or I an reasonably certain that the photographer clearly "shoehorned" a photo into the challenge, I will generally halve the score I would have otherwise given the entry, rounding down.
Of course, voters are free to cast their votes as they see fit, so long as they are not attempting to manipulate or disrupt the system.
~Terry
Message edited by author 2006-01-31 18:43:42.
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01/31/2006 04:55:35 PM · #15 |
I'm certain that everyone would enjoy thier hobby more and learn more if they put less importance on scores. Scores are subjective, subject to the whims of the current DPC members. Therefore scores have no meaning beyond the actual challenge in which it was entered. High scores are pats on the head and a few cookies. Why get so bent out of shape for a nebulus concept of score? Ridiculous.
--jrjr |
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01/31/2006 06:38:01 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Di:
I think ... we need a DNMC for VOTERS not photos......
give them the score the photo deserves... tehn tell em .. i dont see how this fits the challenge...
But dont get high and mighty becasue you think it doesnt meet the challenge... it may meet the challenge in the photographers eyes... |
Having topical challenges is a great stimulant and help for photographers, which can be perfectly defeated if it only serves to satisfy the glee of those voters who need to carry their prejudices into the process. Stressing such a purpose instead of further encouraging voters to act out their prejudice, might be a better approach, IMO.
I am with Di on this.
Message edited by author 2006-01-31 18:38:55.
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01/31/2006 07:07:36 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Di:
I'm sure the ruling didnt mean to vote a 2 to a photo that shoud have been a 10...if it met the challenge |
No maybe 6 at tops, but it definately should not get a 10. Otherwise, why bother to have challenges at all? I gave the sheep a 5 for good photo bad DNMC
Brett
Message edited by author 2006-01-31 19:10:06. |
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01/31/2006 07:15:06 PM · #18 |
If entries cannot be DQ'ed for dnmc; and the voters are not supposed to vote them lower for dnmc, as Di suggests, then why bother to have a topic at all?
The voters are entrusted with enforcing that entries meet the challenge topic and they do it with their votes. If you are getting a lot of comments about your entires not meeting the topic, and it's bugging you, maybe you ought to adjust your approach a bit and move a little toward trying somewhat harder to meet the topic. That may result in more satisfactory scores and will surely be a lot easier to accomplish than trying to change the way people vote.
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01/31/2006 08:01:40 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
If entries cannot be DQ'ed for dnmc; and the voters are not supposed to vote them lower for dnmc, as Di suggests, then why bother to have a topic at all?
The voters are entrusted with enforcing that entries meet the challenge topic and they do it with their votes. If you are getting a lot of comments about your entires not meeting the topic, and it's bugging you, maybe you ought to adjust your approach a bit and move a little toward trying somewhat harder to meet the topic. That may result in more satisfactory scores and will surely be a lot easier to accomplish than trying to change the way people vote. |
ΓΆ€ΒΆ As I have said already (below), topics are of benefit to the participating photographers.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ I have seen entries, and I keep seeing them, who do not only meet the challenge but who meet it with great gusto and finesse only to be penalized by those who failed to see or even to look in the first place.
As is obvious from often repeated opinions in the forums, many voters have made up their minds as what kinds of entries (and under what paradigms) will meet the challenge, even before that challenge is under way and a single image has been viewed.
I do not blame anyone for his ignorance. I am ignorant of much myself, but I do not aspire to sit in judgement of matters I do not grasp.
Message edited by author 2006-01-31 20:03:30.
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01/31/2006 09:22:34 PM · #20 |
This topic comes up repeatedly and has been discussed in the forums before. forum thread
I am all for a tick box that can be checked off if the voter believes in his/her opinion that the image DNMC. Not for the purpose of punishing, or having the picture in question disqualified, but for purpose of communication. With recent challenges exceeding 500 entries, many voters do not have the time to comment, and so may just give a low score without comment. A high tally of ticks in the DNMC box can inform the photographer why low scores are being given in the absense of comments.
Imo, this system will not effect the creativity or willingness to think outside the box. We all come to challenges with preconceived ideas of what meets the challenge and what constitutes a high quality image. This can only be an aid to communication and if the viewer feels compelled to do so, can leave a comment as well, for extraordinary photos.
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01/31/2006 09:28:42 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
ΓΆ€ΒΆ As I have said already (below), topics are of benefit to the participating photographers.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ I have seen entries, and I keep seeing them, who do not only meet the challenge but who meet it with great gusto and finesse only to be penalized by those who failed to see or even to look in the first place.
As is obvious from often repeated opinions in the forums, many voters have made up their minds as what kinds of entries (and under what paradigms) will meet the challenge, even before that challenge is under way and a single image has been viewed.
I do not blame anyone for his ignorance. I am ignorant of much myself, but I do not aspire to sit in judgement of matters I do not grasp. |
text
I agree completely. |
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