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01/23/2006 08:37:25 PM · #1 |
Someone please help me understand.
A very long time ago, I pretty well got put in my place, in the corner, for asking how a butterfly was a person in the choices challenge.
The reply: The photographer placed themself as the butterfly. Eh - ok - WAY out of the box...(was a beautiful picture btw)
Now in a challenge that clearly defined to photograph a person, I see animal pictures, and good ones at that, but how can these images place above the shots that did take the photographers out, get over the fear of shooting a candid of a person and did so, meeting the challenge?
Seems a mechanism should be in place to not allow a shot that clearly does not meet the challenge. Forget all the out of the box thoughts. I didn't enter my own suggestion challenge, but I can say, that if an image of a dog, or a sheep (or two) placed higher than one I submitted with a person in it, singled out, I would be rather upset.
Are the DPC voters saying that a (strictly made up) Pulitzer-Prize winning shot of fireman saving a baby in a burning building used in a macro floral challenge should score well? Not a chance. If a shot does not meet the challenge, it doesn't meet it - period, no matter how good it is.
So the voters should be allowed to decide?
Pop enough wow factor in anything and submit it, who cares?
I personally think those trying and learning care.
The singled-out challenge was something I hope many had fun trying something new.
Not always easy to shoot a candid of someone.
Yeah, I'm a thorn.
Maybe I'm playing the Devil's Advocate.
If a challenge is announced to photograph a bird, and someone submits a beach ball, then it should be disqualified, or at least be bumped to the bottom of the pile, never being over an image that did meet the challenge.
Sorry to be a pain in the ass.
At least I will never be accused of being a hypocrite.
Cast stones at will.
Worst that could happen is I get booted out of here.
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01/23/2006 08:41:30 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Someone please help me understand.
A very long time ago, I pretty well got put in my place, in the corner, for asking how a butterfly was a person in the choices challenge.
The reply: The photographer placed themself as the butterfly. Eh - ok - WAY out of the box...(was a beautiful picture btw)
Now in a challenge that clearly defined to photograph a person, I see animal pictures, and good ones at that, but how can these images place above the shots that did take the photographers out, get over the fear of shooting a candid of a person and did so, meeting the challenge?
Seems a mechanism should be in place to not allow a shot that clearly does not meet the challenge. Forget all the out of the box thoughts. I didn't enter my own suggestion challenge, but I can say, that if an image of a dog, or a sheep (or two) placed higher than one I submitted with a person in it, singled out, I would be rather upset.
Are the DPC voters saying that a (strictly made up) Pulitzer-Prize winning shot of fireman saving a baby in a burning building used in a macro floral challenge should score well? Not a chance. If a shot does not meet the challenge, it doesn't meet it - period, no matter how good it is.
So the voters should be allowed to decide?
Pop enough wow factor in anything and submit it, who cares?
I personally think those trying and learning care.
The singled-out challenge was something I hope many had fun trying something new.
Not always easy to shoot a candid of someone.
Yeah, I'm a thorn.
Maybe I'm playing the Devil's Advocate.
If a challenge is announced to photograph a bird, and someone submits a beach ball, then it should be disqualified, or at least be bumped to the bottom of the pile, never being over an image that did meet the challenge.
Sorry to be a pain in the ass.
At least I will never be accused of being a hypocrite.
Cast stones at will.
Worst that could happen is I get booted out of here. |
I have to say..I agree with you..!! Most voters on this site have no idea how to vote! And you would think SC would move photos that DNMC toward the bottom but they won't do that..
Message edited by author 2006-01-23 20:45:05. |
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01/23/2006 08:44:23 PM · #3 |
Brad,
not meeting a challenge is not grounds for a DQ. SC has always stated that. I think that maybe people forgot that it was suposed to be people in the picture. Didnt read it close enough or whatever. I voted and didnt remember that it specificaly stated people, just the candid and standing out parts. However its up to the individual person to determine if a photo doesnt meet the challenge. Even if its a sheep in a challenge specificaly stated was suposed to be for people. just my 2cents... |
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01/23/2006 08:54:11 PM · #4 |
| One of the first things I grew to understand about the voters was that I would never understand the voters... |
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01/23/2006 08:56:08 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
One of the first things I grew to understand about the voters was that I would never understand the voters... |
Oh so very true!
edit: that might make a good signature too :)
Message edited by author 2006-01-23 20:56:43. |
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01/23/2006 09:14:49 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Kivet:
Brad,
not meeting a challenge is not grounds for a DQ. |
Been around these parts a long time and know that, though maybe this should be looked into - a unanimous decision kind of thing.
This is kind of not about the voters either really.
It's a shame that that an image clearly not meeting the challenge is allowed in. A mechanism should be in place to give those that did go out and at least meet the challenge, a better score than someone that didn't.
A car race is announced, to drive a car across town, not touching the brake pedal, and not exceeding 35 mph. Black & white. Hit 36mph and it's disqualification time. Wrestlers have a weight limit. Weigh in at the meet 1/4lb over, and it's a disqualification.
Some things should be plain & simple. It is or it isn't...
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01/23/2006 09:43:13 PM · #7 |
| Not meeting a challenge is SO subjective though. Some things are obvious, sheep in a challenge that calls for people. I doubt any of the sc wants the job of looking for ones that are way too out of the box. I feel your pain though! I really do. |
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01/23/2006 09:44:25 PM · #8 |
Brad,
I know where you're coming from...but here is another question, I got curious thinking about this topic...In a challenge that does state it is supposed to be images of "people"...."candid" images of people, there were a couple that perhaps weren't quite so "candid", quite the opposite really...what would be done with those images since they too don't really meet the topic?
Just curious to hear your thoughts on that...not trying to single any one image out, just a "what if" kind of question I suppose...where would the DNMC stop? |
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01/23/2006 10:07:52 PM · #9 |
The candid aspect, unless stated so, could be, regardless of how staged it may have been.
Even a posed nude could be a candid, if say the photog snuck a shot on a set or similar.
My point on this is the candid aspect would be nearly impossible to say yes or no, but never has an animal been a person, though my cat thinks otherwise - lol.
Ugh - off to look for the lid to close this can of worms...
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01/23/2006 10:11:38 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
One of the first things I grew to understand about the voters was that I would never understand the voters... |
LOL... the understatement for 2006 at least. True, my worst pics in my opinion does well and great ones in my opinion, get DNMC? |
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01/23/2006 10:30:41 PM · #11 |
We must be careful with DNMC... in my singled out I got a DNMC. Just that... DNMC. I asked permission to discuss it with the member who agreed. He then explained his view and I had to accept that he is absolutly entitled to his opinion. But should the one person wield enough power with his DNMC button to have kicked me out? Or like the poor performance in the FORK challenge where obviously people saw DNMC... and it indeed did meet the challenge in my mind, a fork in the river is a fork. As is a sign of infection a sign(neutral example) but will suffer in the voting process from DNMC voters.
Perhaps DNMC should be refered to a SC/panel who can rule and disqualify or certify... I just do not know but we must think it through.
In principle I have to agree, DNMC is a problem. Speculating, if there is a DNMC button and 10% voters deem it not to be meeting the challenge? Now the problem is voting a 1's for DNMC, that hurts! Especially if you have more 10's than the guys above you but you also have a few 1' or 2's coming from somewhere with a DNMC in the eye. |
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01/23/2006 10:37:47 PM · #12 |
I'll give my take on it.
Some voters actually do read the description and while I can't get an image DQ'd because of DNMC, I can use my vote, which I have done.
And then turn around and see in the forums hostile threads about how can someone give a fantastic image a low vote.
I have voted low on images that DNMC and at the same time added the pic as a favorite of mine, because it was a fantastic image in my eyes, just didn't qualify for the challenge.
It gets frustrating to me, because it makes me not only not want to enter my first challenge, but also not want to vote, because no matter which way I do, someone, will find something wrong with it.
Some voters actually do know how to vote, we just get squashed for it. |
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01/23/2006 10:41:56 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Skyarcher:
I have voted low on images that DNMC and at the same time added the pic as a favorite of mine, because it was a fantastic image in my eyes, just didn't qualify for the challenge. |
Been there done that!
I can even go you one further and using BradP as an example: I argued seriously for DQ on a ribbon winning shot that I thought was awesome (and picked as a favorite before the debate even began) but felt violated the rules on creating major elements... I'm sure you can figure out which one it is as I've called Brad out enough times on the shot through several discussions in the past. |
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01/23/2006 10:43:23 PM · #14 |
Brad, just the other side for a second if I may. There has always been a creative tool known as Anthropomorphism (assigning human traits to non-human beings) available to artists. Could one not argie that they used this tool to meet the challenge?
Message edited by author 2006-01-23 22:43:57.
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01/23/2006 10:49:47 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Ugh - off to look for the lid to close this can of worms... |
Good luck with that! |
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01/23/2006 10:55:40 PM · #16 |
Once upon a time, long long ago, an entry could get dq'ed for not meeting the challenge.
It was ugly.
Very ugly.
DNMC us sooooooooooo subjective. You think ruling on major elements is a pain? This would be, well, awful.
That said, I understand your pain. ;)
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01/23/2006 11:10:38 PM · #17 |
 This best describes my feelings on the subject matter.
Why even bother with rules..... there truly is no incentive to abide by them.
Ray
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01/23/2006 11:20:12 PM · #18 |
DNMC...don't vote on it. skip it.
Would be nice if there was a button you can hit, that says: "I think this dnmc"
Message edited by author 2006-01-23 23:20:52. |
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01/24/2006 01:11:21 AM · #19 |
Brad,
You are trying to be more just then the pop, as we say in Hebrew.
The line of DNMC is very thin. I agree - there are some very clear cases of not meeting the challenge.
But then, there are some other cases, that only requires a bit of creativity.
Should I remind you my entry for the music challenge? Do you really think, a bunch of lemurs singing are not "musical"?
If you say yes here, then I have nothing further to say. I will know that you have lost your own creativity. And this will be a very sad thing to know.
however, if you say no - then the rest of the mob here will think bad things about you. Catch-22, isn't it?
I have looked at the singled out photos, and you know what? Among the top 50 photos, I have seen about 7 photos that I would disqualify for not meeting the challenge.
They all had people in them. But they didn't "singled-out" those people from the crowd. There were just photos of a single person.
However, in the 56th place I saw a photo of group of sheep. And you know something? they meet the challenge perfectly for me.
There were a whole group there, but only two actually stood out focus-wise. And this was IMO a wonderful singled-out example.
So the challenge's wording say "person". I think that was a poor way of putting things right here. In court that would be called "leading the witness". You can't tell people what to shoot in the challenge's wording!
You can't specifically say it has to be a person, it has to be a street, it has to be a band on stage.
If you do so - you are killing everyone's creativity.
And by the way, what I would disqualify here, is those people who leave a comment that only says DNMC.
This is a photography site. If you are not mature enough to realize that this is not a comment - don't borther leaving it.
This "comment" is very much like a 4 year only kid who is running to the kindergarten's teacher to snitch on the other kid, and get the teacher's attention.
It's photography value is very much not existing. |
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01/24/2006 01:25:20 AM · #20 |
| u guys are making it hard for a brown-ribbon seeker :( |
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01/24/2006 10:20:26 AM · #21 |
easiest solution is for people to actually use the 1 vote for DNMC entries. If an entry is so obvious that it doesn't meet challenge than vote it a 1. Essentially that takes a 10 vote and makes it a 5. I think the problem is people use 3 or 4 as their low vote. If everyone stopped being afraid to hurt peoples feelings, or stopped taking the "who am I to give a one" attitude, these entries would be filtered out to the back of the pack.
I don't want people to be mean, but a 1 vote for a bad picture at least lets the photographer know improvement is desperately needed. I think learning is a lot easier when people are honest. If your picture gets voted down with a ton of 1's, thats no reason to go on suicide watch, just take another 1000 photos and keep at it. |
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01/24/2006 10:32:52 AM · #22 |
In singled out challenge, the description read:
Drop your fear of candids this week and single-out a person in a crowd as your source of composition. Use minimal depth-of-field to your advantage to help isolate your subject, and as always, be creative.
So, to be strict, anything that:
is not candid should be DNMC
is not a person should be DNMC
has no crowd should be DNMC
does not use a very shallow DOF should be DNMC
has no isolated subject should be DNMC
is not creative should be DNMC
I think you might be left with about 10 images that DO meet ALL the criteria. Really rather ridiculous. |
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01/24/2006 10:35:42 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by Jinjit:
You can't specifically say it has to be a person, it has to be a street, it has to be a band on stage.
If you do so - you are killing everyone's creativity.
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DPC can't say that? Oh really?
Actually, they CAN. And as far as I am aware, they are the only ones that DO, which is the very reason why I signed up here, and why I'm not participating on any of the other countless sites that don't have themed challenges like DPC does.
Some people might see the restrictions as "killing creativity", other see it as the exact opposite. If you want to do nothing but "free studies", you have so many websites to choose from - we only have DPC.
Please leave it the way it is. Lately we have had numerous free studies (or very close to it), so it is already changing to be like all the others, please please please leave at least a little bit of what makes this place special for those of us who like it just the way it is (or was). |
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01/24/2006 10:51:35 AM · #24 |
i could not agree more. I would rather have more guidelines that must be followed on challenges. I personally like the challenges like single light source or shallow DOF, very cut and dry. I use DPC for learning, and if I was in a photography class, the professor would ask for specifics.
For those that say the challenges limit their creativity, I think it is quite the opposite. I think it takes more creativity to find something appealing in a set parameter than a free study. When everyone is taking a photo of the same thing or the same technique, a truly inovative photo usually wins. |
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01/24/2006 11:46:21 AM · #25 |
I'm sorry I ever suggested the challenge in the first place, and should have just kept my mouth shut on the whole issue.
Off to find a car tire or something for the wildlife challenge - I'll make it fit in somehow.... |
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This best describes my feelings on the subject matter.
