Had it up to my eyeballs - DPChallenge Forums

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 07:23:29 AM · #1

Is anyone else being judged and voted on with their singled out entry solely based on your post processing?

Ever since a thread opened up about dq's based on post processing a singled out entry, it seems to me that now votes are being given on assumed post processing rather than the photo itself or its composition.

I think that is sad, and if post processing is now going to be the basis in which the "spirit of the challenge is lost" and how voters vote, then I think that pretty much eliminates all other contests where anything other than a crop is done, don't you?

GEEESH, I mean, just because the challenge asked for minimal dof, and someone, or even myself, "may" have used post processing to acquire that effect, I really don't think that should detract from the composition, the interest of the photo, and so on. It would be only one small iota of what the candid photo contains, and shouldn't be judged or voted on in the regards of PP.

Personally, I don't care WHO may have used PP or not to achieve the effect. I am voting on the image, just like I do for any other image where PP was used.

There ought to be a rule against threads discussing a current challenge at ALL, other than "scores" if wanted, once it goes in. As far as I am concerned, anything else only sways voters, and probably even this thread. BUT, I just have to counteract against this type of behavior when voting and the other threads posted in regards to PP entries.

There is RARELY EVER an entry where post processing isn't involved. And PP in the singled out challenge is only being "singled out" in voting due to threads that wanted to discuss that post challenge going in.

I guess from now on if I see dodgeing, burning, neat image, and etc used in advanced editing rules I should vote it down too? GET REAL!

Rose

01/22/2006 07:28:45 AM · #2

If I see a shot that's badly post processed, I will vote it down no matter what I read in the forums, because the poor job of post processing would significantly reduce the quality of the photo in my opinion. If the shot is processed well, I probably won't even notice, which is great.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 07:30:34 AM · #3

Originally posted by Konador:

I know, and that is different. By the way, you gave me a lovely comment. But when someone comments on the entire entry going against the spirit of the challenge based on PP alone, then that is a bit ridiculous.

Rose

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

01/22/2006 07:31:23 AM · #4

Hmmm... I base at least a 1/3 the score I give people on post processing. Its part of the entire package (like a frame and a title). As far as adding blur, if I can tell you added blur and it doesn't add to the composition I'll probably blame the processing and mark you down.

Just because something is post processed doesn't mean it was post processed well. Believe me - I post process like crap all the time. :)

Message edited by ClubJuggle - Let's not get personal please..

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 07:35:37 AM · #5

Originally posted by dahkota:

dahkota, I am not talking about voting based on good or bad post processing. I am talking about voting a photo down simply because it was used at all and telling someone it is against spirit challenge to use it. Should this mean that every time you use blur, or all of your post processing that I should vote your photo down completely based on the use of any post processing?

Rose

Message edited by ClubJuggle - Let's not get personal please..

01/22/2006 07:44:49 AM · #6

To be fair on those commenters, the challenge did say "Use minimal depth-of-field to your advantage to help isolate your subject", and adding blur in post-processing, no matter how well or how badly, is not using minimal depth-of-field. Its just if it's done badly, people will notice and mark you down, if it's done well, no1 will even know. It's up to each individual how they interpret the challenge, and how they vote. Some people may have considered that line of the challenge to mean "use the effect of having your subject in focus and the rest not" and some might have thought it meant "use a shallow DoF in your camera". Neither is right, and neither is wrong, it's just personal opinion.

Message edited by author 2006-01-22 07:45:21.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 07:59:55 AM · #7

Originally posted by Konador:

I agree that if the post processing is done badly, then yes, obviously it makes a difference in the way a vote can come in as it effects the entire photo.

BUT, I don't want this thread to get off track from what I am actually discussing here, and that is voting down a photo just 'because any' post processing was used - good, bad, or ugly.

If a photo can be seen to have used PP, and you get a commentor that says that the spirit of the challenge is now lost since you used PP to achieve any effect, is that proper voting? This would eliminate any and all challenges where PP is obviously used, and I would dare say that would be 99.9% of all challenge entries.

It just so happens I am bringing up the singled out challenge because it was heavily discussed on another thread and debated on PP being used and if a photo should be dq'ed based on PP the dof in any capacity in this challenge. Unfortunately, that was not discussed PRIOR to challenge going in, but after. Now it seems ever since that thread, comments have been largely based on possible use of PP and not the photo that is. I think my last 5 comments were on PP and not the photo, and I don't even find this significant in my particular entry. As a matter of fact, the comments have been wrong in regards to the type of dof I even used. There are different opinions as to what shallow dof is and dof itself, and it seems most are commenting on complete dof and not shallow, and mine is shallow (two confusion lines). Nonetheless, the comments, they are in direct corrolation to that DQ thread, and I find that distressing.

Message edited by author 2006-01-22 08:01:41.

jansku

01/22/2006 08:05:32 AM · #8

I really don't like photos that scream "over processed". Within the limits of Basic Editing you won't get to that point unless you really go crazy. However, Advanced Editing let's you use tools like blur and burn and dodge.. which are very powerful tools indeed. Used wrong, they efficiently ruin the picture. Especially the blur tool is dangerous, you should be very, very careful with it.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 08:14:58 AM · #9

Ok, I am going to explain this one more time, as I can see others are really not reading this thread.

1. I am not talking about over processing
2. I am not talking about bad processing
3. I am not talking about using processing wrong
4. I am not talking about using processing well

I am talking about voting a photo down based on "any" post processing being used, AND saying how it goes against the spirit of a challenge to use it.

I don't want this thread to get off track on whether or not PP makes a difference at all on voting.

Let's say you have an entry for a challenge that's entitled "trees". You find that it would look better in b/w and the use of dodge and burn would enhance it. Now let's say someone opens a thread after challenge opens for votes and states that if you used burn and dodge in your entry then I think it should be dq'd. Now you find your comments are revolving around the use of your burn and dodge, and one comment has even gone so far as to say it's basically a DNMC just due to that one thread and your use of burn and dodge. NOT in HOW you used it, but the fact you used it at all. This is what I am saying.

I am also wondering if others are finding their comments have gone from great ones, like mine, to PP used at all (and some even sarcastic and BAGGED), like mine, in the last several comments made?

Rose

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

01/22/2006 08:30:08 AM · #10

If most of your comments are about the PP, then it seems to me that the PP is more of an influence in your photo than the photo itself, which is your mistake. If they feel the challenge was about using shallow DoF, then processing to fake it would be against the spirit of the challenge, and therefor their comments and votes are justified. If, like you, you felt the challenge was about using any way to isolate the subject, including post processing, then your opinions do not match so I can understand you being annoying. But realise that they feel as strongly as you, just in the opposite way.

Post processing in a tree's challenge is completely different because the trees were in the original photo, and thats the challenge. In this challenge, using a shallow DoF was the challenge, so if your original photo has none and it's all prost processed, then it seems very fair that people can say DNMC.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

01/22/2006 08:35:02 AM · #11

I am talking about voting a photo down based on "any" post processing being used, AND saying how it goes against the spirit of a challenge to use it.

Maybe you missed our point. If I can tell that you used the blur tool rather than capturing blur in camera, then maybe I think you didn't process well.

If you are getting comments on your use of the blur tool, people can obviously tell you used blur. If they believe that, in this challenge, they don't like it, they can vote any way they want.

As for using dodge and burn, if I can plainly see you used dodge and burn, maybe you didn't do too good a job using it. Most people can't tell at all if you use a tool effectively UNLESS you are using the tool as an element in your image. Then they will often vote you down anyway.

nsbca7

Mattel Barbie Photo Designer Digital Camera

01/22/2006 08:35:44 AM · #12

Originally posted by Rose8699:

How can they tell there is PP if it does not fall under the first three. Good PP would go unnoticed.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 08:43:55 AM · #13

Originally posted by Konador:

Well, I totally disagree. The comments are not so much about the use of blur as much as they are about the "use of blur in this challenge". Which I personally do not find to be DNMC, nor does "most" of council when in reference to the DQ thread placed earlier in forum. If that was to be a DNMC, then it should have had basic editing rules and not advanced, and then that means that you should be personally clicking the DQ button on every entry you feel should be out of the competition. You again have now just swayed voters in a direction which is unneccesary by stating it "would be" not only against the spirit of the challenge, and should be considered a DNMC - and saying so during the voting process.

And no, post processing a tree is not any different in what I am talking about. If someone is going to comment on ANY post processing in a challenge as being against the spirit of a challenge, then PP a tree fits their opinions as well.

So, am I now, in using your views, to vote down every photo I see in wildlife that I only "believe" was not taken in a "natural environment"? Should I also vote down every photo in "tribute" if I believe they did nothing more than enter a free study photo? In fantasy, should I vote down every photo where neat image and any other post processing is done - as it would be against the spirit of the challenge even though advanced editing rules are allowed in all I mention?

You have made some pretty strong comments here Konador in reference to what should be considered a DNMC and what is against the spirit of a challenge. When all I am trying to figure out in this thread is if a photo should be voted down based on using "any post processing at all", and if others are receiving the same bad comments based on post threads to challenge votes.

Rose

Message edited by author 2006-01-22 08:44:42.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 08:47:04 AM · #14

Originally posted by nsbca7:

Originally posted by Rose8699:
Ok, I am going to explain this one more time, as I can see others are really not reading this thread.

1. I am not talking about over processing
2. I am not talking about bad processing
3. I am not talking about using processing wrong
4. I am not talking about using processing well

How can they tell there is PP if it does not fall under the first three. Good PP would go unnoticed.

Not true. There have been many a photo in which I have seen post processing to the MAX, and it has not gone unnoticed. I do not vote photos down that use PP when it is allowed in advanced editing rules. And again, I am not talking about PP that is bad. I am talking about "ANY" being used.

Message edited by author 2006-01-22 08:48:02.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 08:55:08 AM · #15

So basically I will end with these few statements:

In the future, it is my opinion, that when a challenge is opened up in which specifically mentions something like a mimimal amount of dof be used, it should emphatically be a basic editing challenge. This would eliminate the possibility of any PP being done to gain that effect when it is an effect able to be accessed and used in "advanced editing". If voters are going to vote down photos based on advanced editing allowances in a challenge where a specific "in camera" effect should be acquired, then let it be basic editing, forcing the photographer to do an in camera effect or not enter at all.

My second proposition, BY opinion, is that once a challenge goes in for voting, that NOTHING in reference to the "should ofs, could ofs, and would ofs" be mentioned in open forum until voting is over. Scores threads? Sure. But talking about anything that can sway voters should not be allowed.

Rose

w24x192

Canon PowerShot S50

01/22/2006 08:55:51 AM · #16

It seems like you would make the same arguement if you entered a B&W shot in, say, the Color Portrait challenge. Is it a bad shot? No. Is it illegal? No. It is just against what most people felt was the point of the challenge. In the case of the Singled Out challenge, the description calls for us to use minimal DOF...some cameras are better at this than others, but it can be done in-camera by most any camera. Since first and foremost this is a photography site (and one that is meant to help us all learn and improve), people may give the critique that they felt achieving the look of minimal DOF without actually getting a small DOF in-camera is missing the point of the photography challenge. This is dpchallenge...it is supposed to be challenging, otherwise it would just be some site where you could post whatever you wanted. The other fun thing about this (and yes, it can be off-putting) is that other people get to tell you what they think about your shot - good, bad or indifferent. It is best on this site to take everything, even the glowingly good comments, with a grain of salt. Try to learn from everything and incorporate that with your own style. If you take things too personnaly, eventually, you'll get fed-up and leave the site, which is no good.

MrEd

Sony DSLR-A100

Sigma 15-30mm f/3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF for Minolta

01/22/2006 08:57:59 AM · #17

Rose.........think I can take a shot at clarifying this? I'm pretty sure I know what you mean.
Say me and Rose each take the EXACT same photo for a contest (EXACT in every way, shape or form).
I crop, resize and submit.
Rose dodges, burns, layers, etc etc. making her photo look much better than mine.
Another DPC'er comes along and sees the photo's and says 'Hey, look, I know Rose's photo has been PP and looks better. But, I'm going to vote MrEd's higher because his hasn't been PP'
Is this what your saying?

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 09:00:10 AM · #18

Originally posted by w24x192:

I agree with most of what you said. And if this is about "learning" then no advanced editing should be allowed in such an "in camera" challenge, don't you agree? I mean, why have advanced editing be allowed when an in camera effect is so easily obtained by most cameras?

Rose

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 09:04:47 AM · #19

Originally posted by MrEd:

Basically, yes. If you only crop and resize, then that is editing, but basic. If I used dodge, burn, etc, then I used advanced editing. Then I get a comment that says "the use of advanced editing is against the spirit of a challenge". LOL.... You would probably get a comment that says "your photo would have looked better had you darkened the sky". LOL....BUT, that is neither here nor there. That is just another funny quip that commenters do. I love it when I get a comment on what I should do to a photo to make it better when it was AGAINST the editing rules. LOL...BUT, to say that it is against the spirit of a challenge to use ANY editing? That mystifies me.

IF now, the challenge you and I entered, was for basic editing only, THEN I could see what I did as a DNMC. But when advanced IS allowed, then vote on the photo and not on the usage of editing being used at all, advanced or otherwise.

Rose

01/22/2006 09:18:30 AM · #20

Originally posted by Rose8699:

DNMC is no reason to be DQd. The SC have stated this many times. I know what you meant about comments referring to "use of blur in this challenge", and that is the issue I addressed. Also, see my final point in this post.

Originally posted by Rose8699:

You again have now just swayed voters in a direction which is unneccesary by stating it "would be" not only against the spirit of the challenge, and should be considered a DNMC - and saying so during the voting process.

I said "people that interpret the challenge this way" would think that this DNMC, etc etc. Nowhere have I said what I personally feel, and I've made sure to say that both opinions are valid. I'm just trying to help you see both sides of the argument, because at the moment you are only looking at your side. If you didnt want us to talk about the current challenge, why start this thread? You are trying to sway voters opinions 100% more than I am (0%).

Originally posted by Rose8699:

And no, post processing a tree is not any different in what I am talking about. If someone is going to comment on ANY post processing in a challenge as being against the spirit of a challenge, then PP a tree fits their opinions as well.

The tree was there. The post processing does not "Create" the tree, hence the post processing does not make the photo meet the challenge. In some people's opinions, adding a blur in the singled out challenge, to meet the challenge specification, is against the spirit. What makes them wrong? Nothing. They are entitled to their opinions as much as you are. Just because your opinions differ, does not make either voter wrong. Again, read my final point in this post.

Originally posted by Rose8699:

So, am I now, in using your views, to vote down every photo I see in wildlife that I only "believe" was not taken in a "natural environment"?

Yes, if you want. But in terms of post processing, they may not only "believe" the blur was added, they may be able to tell for sure, if the post processing was badly done.

Originally posted by Rose8699:

Should I also vote down every photo in "tribute" if I believe they did nothing more than enter a free study photo?

Yes, if you want. But maybe you should realise that there may be photographers you have never heard of, that other people have. But in terms of post processing, they may not only "believe" the blur was added, they may be able to tell for sure, if the post processing was badly done.

Originally posted by Rose8699:

In fantasy, should I vote down every photo where neat image and any other post processing is done - as it would be against the spirit of the challenge even though advanced editing rules are allowed in all I mention?

Yes, vote them down if you don't like the post processing. Why would post processing be against the spirit of the challenge in the same way as the singled out example you have referenced though? I really don't see how this example has anything to do with the spirit of the challenge stuff.

Originally posted by Rose8699:

You have made some pretty strong comments here Konador in reference to what should be considered a DNMC and what is against the spirit of a challenge.

No I haven't. I've just given some example opinions of imaginary people who I think may exist, based on your initial post.

Originally posted by Rose8699:

When all I am trying to figure out in this thread is if a photo should be voted down based on using "any post processing at all", and if others are receiving the same bad comments based on post threads to challenge votes.

This is my main point:

But the whole arguement isn't "any post processing at all". It's post processing something in, which the challenge says should be present, rather than getting it in camera. Some people think its against the spirit of the challenge, some people think it's perfectly okay. Who is to say one group is right or wrong? This whole thread is nothing to do with "any post processing at all".

Message edited by author 2006-01-22 09:21:54.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

01/22/2006 09:37:51 AM · #21

Konador, I am not going to sit here and nitpick through your every out of context reference, again, in your last post. I will however, agree with your first part. It was my error to state a photo should be ticketed for dq based on a DNMC. HOWEVER, I totally disagree in you saying that "others may look at it that way" IF blur was used to give the effect when "advanced editing" rules allow it.

Let me just simply say that if a challenge is being based on an "in camera" effect, then it is MY opinion it NOT be an advanced editing outset. Let it be BASIC, and this way ALL will have to either do it in camera, or not do it at all. I would rather have NOT entered, then have entered knowing I was going to be voted down JUST for using advanced editing rules in this specific challenge, OR any other. OR maybe a special rule should have been added to say: "advanced editing rules in this challenge will not allow for the use of blur to give a dof effect".

To me this was a wasted challenge. Not that my score is horrible, and it is staying at a 5.2, even when the 2005 study pretty much took voters time; but to enter a challenge such as this ended up not unlike an oxymoron. I have comments that range from me nailing it, to great dof, and then after that DQ thread, ranged from blurry effects being used correctly, to incorrectly, to having it be said I lost the spirit of the challenge. This is my beef, and to have a challenge where an in camera effect is specified, to allow for advanced rules in order to achieve that effect is only setting some up for a fall.

Rose

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

01/22/2006 09:43:14 AM · #22

Well, just because a challenge is advanced editing, doesn't mean all the effects permitted should be used. If the challenge were basic editing, we wouldnt even be allowed to remove a dust speck or burn something slightly. The amount of post processing each voter likes to see is up to them, just as it is up to the photographer to use as much as they like. If you used too much in some people's opinions, who are you to say their opinion is wrong? They are the ones to whom you entered your image to vote on.

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

01/22/2006 09:45:43 AM · #23

Originally posted by Rose8699:

Rose,

I've read the comment in question, and I personally thing the above statement misrepresents it somewhat (and at the very least takes it out of contet), especially as it is enclosed in quotation marks. It certainly led me to believe that was the exact comment.

The actual comment you received was, "Blurring out the other people with your software somewhat goes against the spirit of the challenge..."

As I read it, that comment in no way states that the use of post-processing *at all* is a violation of the spirit of the challenge. At least to me, it reads that the use of post-processing to meet the challenge with a photograph that otherwise might not was not well received by that voter. Nothing more, nothing less.

Implicit in a comment like that is also a statement about the quality of the post-processing. Obviously something about the post-processing made it clear to the commenter that the DOF was achieved in post-processing, rather than in camera. If there's anything to take away from the comment, that might be it.

Far from being a wasted challenge, there is the opportunity to learn from the voters' response to your post-processing, which is part of your presentation. When one finds something to learn from a negative experience, that experience is not wasted.

~Terry

Message edited by author 2006-01-22 09:50:16.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

01/22/2006 09:52:27 AM · #24

I have not read the DQ thread so my view on the challenge has not been influenced. However, I have voted on the challenge and I took a point off the score of those images I COULD TELL had blur post processed in. Why? I COULD TELL the post processing had been done. There are probably quite a few images in the challenge with added blur that I COULD NOT TELL the blur was added. Kudos to those photographer with a light and exacting touch.