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12/23/2005 08:52:17 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It's amazing what people will try to get insight into another company's operations. |
I doubt that would be an issue at a grocery store, though. |
Grocery stores typically operate on the thinnest profit margins in retail. They are especially vulnerable to both competetion and shoplifting. |
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12/23/2005 09:01:17 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
So many people offer their righteous legal opinions online while having their heads firmly lodged between their buttcheeks. Again, unless you are a lawyer and have specific knowledge of this area of law, you're probably just blowing smoke and anyone who acts on your advice is a fool. |
I quite concur, some people do act like fools online don't they?
I am not a lawyer, but my father & brother are lawyers, I studied prelaw track at UCBerkeley (basic contract, constitutional,just for a year or so, mixed in with the undergrad reqs.) and all of that is toally irrelevant.
Most any decently educated American ought to know the basic rules of what rights you have to be secure in your person. Ever take a civics class in highschool? Ever read the bill of rights? If you have no idea what rights you have, educate yourself, google Nolo Press, do some reading. Or go get a law degree if that's what it takes for you to become aware of the rights of an American citiczen
You may need a weather man to tell you that it's raining, I belive I can just look up and see for myself. And if you are standing there getting soaked, feel free to ignore me while I put up an umbrella. |
The immediate weather is simple, the laws, state, federal and local are anything but. I'm sure you have seen the criminal codes, they are not simple enough to even be contained in one large volume, they often take an entire bookshelf of very small print on very thin pages.
Exactly what rights you have as a citizen is a lot more complex than it seems. Free Speech? Just look at all the issues where free speech cases go to the Supreme Court. If it were simple, the Supreme Court Justices could spend a lot more of their time working on their golf games and a lot less time deciding what rights we do and don't have.
From the simplistic perspective of a HS civics class, so many things that seem clear are muddied in reality. As with so many things, the devil is in the details. As far as this incident goes, we're only getting one side of the story, I'm sure the store manager and staff would tell a different tale that would paint the story quite differently, so for us to offer legal advice based on hearing only one side of the story is a joke.
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12/23/2005 09:08:18 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by JoshuaM:
So let me ask you this, would it be illegal for him to take photos of the shopping carts from across the street? Would the owner have the right to contain him then? |
Nope, like spazmo said earlier, taking a photograph of a building or something on the premesis thereof is not illigal, and you can only cite someone for trespassing if you don't like them taking pictures on business property that is generally publicly accessible.
In the case of resticted access sites, this changes. If someone has duly posted on the entrance to their property no trespassing, and no photography allowed they may have a case. Still, if you're off the property, they can't really say boo about it.
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12/23/2005 09:11:08 PM · #54 |
Order in court! ORDER!
Spazmo and Brennan, approach the bench. |
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12/23/2005 09:14:33 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Owners or their agents have the right to hold you against your will, if you have broken the law, while you wait for the police. If you have violated store policy, but not broken the law they are limited to escorting you off the property.
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This is wrong. If they have probable cause, i.e. seeing you steal something, they can detain you. Even touch you to do so. Most stores have policies to tell security not to. They however, may not assault or cause physical harm to you to procure your detainment. Meaning they can't tazer, mace, judo, or club you into submission. If they have 5 guys who can reasonably restrain you while seeing that you are not harmed physically, the can do that. This is mostly discouraged because jurors vote against business in these case often, and it is more expensive to prosecute and defend yourself than to let the jerk shoplifter go.
You're other statements about search and seizure are correct, but they can detain you (without physically harming you), wait for the police, and have the officer search you.
Yes, my earlier statement that they cannot touch you is incorrect.
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12/23/2005 09:42:04 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It's amazing what people will try to get insight into another company's operations. |
I doubt that would be an issue at a grocery store, though. |
Grocery stores typically operate on the thinnest profit margins in retail. They are especially vulnerable to both competetion and shoplifting. |
He's talking about spying. Wal Mart in our community sends employees in to competing stores to check prices. The is not done covertly as we live in a small town and everyone knows everyone. I have never heard of anyone complaining about it.
Taking pictures of shopping carts in a parking lot does not even fall into this category.
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12/23/2005 09:49:52 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Order in court! ORDER! |
Pastrami on rye, with a pint of Guinness ... I guess I'm in a rather dark mood ... |
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12/23/2005 10:01:06 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Order in court! ORDER! |
Pastrami on rye, with a pint of Guinness ... I guess I'm in a rather dark mood ... |
Straight Ruski vodka will lighten the mood.
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12/23/2005 10:09:14 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
In the interest of full disclosure, I would like to revise my testimony. No, I am not a lawyer and I do agree with whoever it was up there that said if you listen to any forum poster's advice on legal issues you may be a fool.
My father is a lawyer and this was many years ago, but when I was about 12 and my brother was 10, we went to the bowling alley and we had never bowled before so we thought we would bowl about 50 or so practice shots each before we bowled our first "real" game. I think it cost $1.50 per game so when we finished our "first" game, it came to over $20! Apparently the machine didn't know we were just practicing. Anyway, we didn't have the money and the guy held us there til they could get a hold of my dad which was over 4 hours. When he got there, he threatened them with an unlawful detainment suit. - - So there's where my "expert" opinon came from. :-)
I missed the part in the OP about him knowing it was against the store policy - that changes things quite a bit. I also agree that we've only heard his side of the story and it is starting to sound like what I used always tell my parents: "I was just standing there doing nothing and these guys jumped out of the truck, tackled me and dragged me inside." Probly more to it than that.
So my calmer, more rational reaction is to say shame on you for doing what you knew to be wrong and when you were confronted, you should cooperate, apologize and offer to leave calmly. Take it from me, as a juvenile, running from authorities is never a good idea. So instead of suing, you might consider apologizing to the manager for your behavior.
Someone up there also suggested asking permission first - looks like a big warehouse store and not likely they would grant it, but a little white lie like "school project" or "doing a school newspaper report on how neatly Grocery Superstore parks its shopping carts".
Pass the Guinness, please.
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12/23/2005 10:14:39 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It's amazing what people will try to get insight into another company's operations. |
I doubt that would be an issue at a grocery store, though. |
Grocery stores typically operate on the thinnest profit margins in retail. They are especially vulnerable to both competetion and shoplifting. |
He's talking about spying. Wal Mart in our community sends employees in to competing stores to check prices. The is not done covertly as we live in a small town and everyone knows everyone. I have never heard of anyone complaining about it.
Taking pictures of shopping carts in a parking lot does not even fall into this category. |
As I said earlier, takign pics of shoppings carts may not be the true purpose, it may be the signage, the alarm box, key box, entrance to the main cashier counting room, any number of things.
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12/23/2005 10:28:16 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Pass the Guinness, please. |
Sorry, don't have any : (
But I have some shopping carts : )
 They didn't seem to care when I photographed their garbage can either ...  |
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12/23/2005 10:35:18 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
A bad lawyer could win this one ! They had absolutely no right detaining him. The only right the managers had were to tell him to stop or leave.
He also has a case of assault against them if he chose to persue it.
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12/23/2005 10:38:21 PM · #63 |
Well, I didn't see the sign on the door until they showed me afterward, but the guy did tell me it was against their policy and I took his word on that - I also apoligised for doing so when he explained it to me, but that was after they had called the police about it.
I just didn't see how they had any authority to detain me there, which is why I wanted to leave. I would have stopped and explained it had they been uniformed police officers, or even a security guard with a nametag and a grocery warehouse logo.
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12/23/2005 10:39:50 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
A bad lawyer could win this one ! They had absolutely no right detaining him. The only right the managers had were to tell him to stop or leave.
He also has a case of assault against them if he chose to persue it. |
And, I take it you are a lawyer and not another online "I never studied law, but damn, that just don't seem right" wannabe legal eagle, right?
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12/23/2005 10:42:29 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
Well, I didn't see the sign on the door until they showed me afterward, but the guy did tell me it was against their policy and I took his word on that - I also apoligised for doing so when he explained it to me, but that was after they had called the police about it.
I just didn't see how they had any authority to detain me there, which is why I wanted to leave. I would have stopped and explained it had they been uniformed police officers, or even a security guard with a nametag and a grocery warehouse logo. |
Then case dismissed, let it go, learn from it. |
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12/23/2005 10:48:48 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Get a 1 series camera. Much more effective for repeling assaults. |
ROFLMAO
That was hilarious in the midst of all this moderate rhetoric. Yeah, I hear that with one of those E-Volt cameras you can shock the p*ss outta the security guards if you whack 'em hard enough. If you choose to go with the 1 series make sure you use something solid like the 24-70 L or the 70-200 2.8 L. The sucker will have teeth flying then.
LOL
For the record I think you learned a valuable lesson about respecting private property and being cautious regardless of what you or anyone else thinks your rights to be since the 350 lbs gorilla may not agree with you and it might take the boys in blue a few minutes to get on site and start protecting you. I think this sounds like an arguable case but it seems like the preponderance of evidence would easily be in the manager's favor as the private policy is posted, he has every right to ask your business on the property for which he is liable, you ran from him and he can argue with witnesses (in his employ to be true) that there was no provocation and it looks like he does have the right to detain you for at least some amount of time to ascertain your intent or transfer you to the police who have further authority to find out what you were doing. I'd take it as a stroke of luck that your camera didn't get broken during the incident as a sprain will mend and for whatever amount of grief you've felt over it at least you learned a "street" lesson of what you may or may not be able to get away with regardless of whether the "lesson" would hold up in court or not.
For what its worth, it sounds like your at least out there trying to find some cool things to take cool photos of. Keep that up just be a little more conscious of those surroundings next time.
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12/23/2005 10:54:01 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
A bad lawyer could win this one ! They had absolutely no right detaining him. The only right the managers had were to tell him to stop or leave.
He also has a case of assault against them if he chose to persue it. |
And, I take it you are a lawyer and not another online "I never studied law, but damn, that just don't seem right" wannabe legal eagle, right? |
This is, what, the fifth time I've heard this from you in this thread? Get off your high pedestal and let him express his opinion. He never claimed to be a lawyer.
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12/23/2005 10:57:03 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
And, I take it you are a lawyer and not another online "I never studied law, but damn, that just don't seem right" wannabe legal eagle, right? |
I've studied some law, not a lawyer.
I'd be willing to bet though, if he took it to court, they try to settle so fast his head would spin.
I'd take it to an attorney. Not only did they detain him illegally, they assaulted a minor for nothing more than carrying a camera.
No more responses from me in this thread, so call me all the names ya want.
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12/23/2005 11:06:08 PM · #69 |
Earlier in this thread I heard someone say that running only escalated the situation, I disagree. I am 15 and if some guys pulled up in a truck and confronted me like that I would run all the way to my mommy, or at least get into the store. If they showed you nothing that would lead you to believe that they owned the store, or that they were cops/security, you never know who they could be. And if they are legit they should have no problem talking inside the store, where everyone can see what is going on.
Also, trying to avoid a situation like this is partially why I chose a silver 350d, instead of the black one. To me, black cameras just seem more professional, and more valuable.
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12/23/2005 11:07:17 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
And, I take it you are a lawyer and not another online "I never studied law, but damn, that just don't seem right" wannabe legal eagle, right? |
I don't think anyone claimed to be a lawyer. This is all just advice from friends and should be taken as such. If he wants to pursue this I think he will at some point have to contact a practicing attorney.
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12/23/2005 11:09:17 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I agree they have the right to tell him to leave, but to chase him, grab him and hold him in custody??? I believe a good lawyer would sue for unlawful detention. |
A bad lawyer could win this one ! They had absolutely no right detaining him. The only right the managers had were to tell him to stop or leave.
He also has a case of assault against them if he chose to persue it. |
And, I take it you are a lawyer and not another online "I never studied law, but damn, that just don't seem right" wannabe legal eagle, right? |
This is, what, the fifth time I've heard this from you in this thread? Get off your high pedestal and let him express his opinion. He never claimed to be a lawyer. |
And about the fiftieth time someone has offered the same legal opinion without anything aside from "that just don't seem right" to back it up.
If you don't want to read my posts, then don't. I'm just sick of people pontificating about stuff they have no idea about. Maybe the kid has a case, maybe not. To claim that it's a slam dunk case without any legal qualifications or any specific knowledge of what happened aside from the one side posted here is silly.
In any event, as a minor, the OP can't do anything about it, only his parents can.
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12/23/2005 11:32:00 PM · #72 |
I lied ... ONE more post... MadMan2k, Since you like to take pictures everywhere, I'd advise you to contact your local police department and request Press Credentials, as a freelance photographer. I have Press Credentials I carry with me, not in view, but I do have them on me. They come in really handy at times, trust me. Mine got me out of a $500 ticket I would have gotten for being on the wrong side of the baracades at a Mardi Gras parade. ;-)
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12/24/2005 12:04:05 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by JoshuaM:
So let me ask you this, would it be illegal for him to take photos of the shopping carts from across the street? Would the owner have the right to contain him then? |
Nope, like spazmo said earlier, taking a photograph of a building or something on the premesis thereof is not illigal, and you can only cite someone for trespassing if you don't like them taking pictures on business property that is generally publicly accessible.
In the case of resticted access sites, this changes. If someone has duly posted on the entrance to their property no trespassing, and no photography allowed they may have a case. Still, if you're off the property, they can't really say boo about it. |
Yes you are. The parking lot or the walkway outside where the carts are stored is not a public street.
~Terry
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12/24/2005 12:06:30 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Mine got me out of a $500 ticket I would have gotten for being on the wrong side of the baracades at a Mardi Gras parade. ;-) |
Would like to see some of your Mardi Gras images... and why haven't you been by to see the gallery?
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12/24/2005 12:11:47 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Yes you are. The parking lot or the walkway outside where the carts are stored is not a public street.
~Terry |
Umm, I said OFF THE PROPERTY, meaning not on their property, or possibly a place other than the property in question, possibly a public street.
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