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06/06/2006 03:05:15 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
In my Thermodynamics class, a 55% would have been well above the typical high score, let alone the average, for an exam.
You can't look at it on a straight scale, you really need to curve the scale to be meaningful. By your analysis, most winning images would get a "C" or "D", precious few would venture into "B" territory. There has never been an "A" grade in the history of DPC. |
You are right. It is very, very rare that DPC images get into the "B" category and they never make it to an "A". That is my whole point. :)
In my thermodynamics class (Yes, I had one called quantum thermodynamice. I majored in physics and astronomy in college) our scores were more typical. People actually score above 90% on a regular basis.
Your arguement is that scores in one exceptional low scoring thermodynamics class justfies an exceptionally low scoring curve for DPC images. I don't agree with that logic.
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06/06/2006 03:10:39 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by stdavidson: Originally posted by zeuszen: Originally posted by stdavidson: ...Anyone here think pictures submitted to DPC are below average?... |
That would depend on what average you'd have in mind. |
I think in absolute terms.
For example, if I take a test that has 100 points possible and I get 10 points just for showing up but still only score 55, in most tests I would get an "F". Equivalent DPC scoring is LESS than that.
Conclusion:
DPC scores indicates that the average image sumitted in DPC challenges is "F" work.
I don't believe that. |
I don't look at it that way. A-F scale (ABCDF) contains 5 values. So, split up the values of the numbers: 1&2 are F, 3&4 are D, 5&6 are C, 7&8 are B, 9&10 are A. There, that is more equivocal.
At any rate, if you MUST put a 'grade' to it, for me a 1&2 fail, a 3&4 barely pass, 5 is average, 6 is average +, 7 is doing pretty good, etc... |
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06/06/2006 03:13:47 PM · #53 |
I think someone needs a hug...
Group Hug Everyone!
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 15:14:00. |
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06/06/2006 03:18:35 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by zeuszen: > stdavidson:
I propose average means one thing to one and another to another. |
I agree. Your average, by site definition, says that you feel the average picture submitted to DPC is about 1/3rd better than "poor". Is that correct?
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06/06/2006 03:18:39 PM · #55 |
On a related note, I really admire gsal. He enters an average of seven challenges a month, and his score rarely gets out of five territory. He has exactly one red ribbon, one top ten, and one disqualification. He hasn't been here a year yet. Though he doesn't participate much in forums, I can't recall him complaining much about anything. His favourite subject is anathema to hard-core DPCers: his kids.
He plugs away, enters challenges, does so-so, takes tons of pictures, so obviously enjoys photography... it seems to me he's got the right attitude. |
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06/06/2006 03:23:10 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by stdavidson: Originally posted by Spazmo99:
In my Thermodynamics class, a 55% would have been well above the typical high score, let alone the average, for an exam.
You can't look at it on a straight scale, you really need to curve the scale to be meaningful. By your analysis, most winning images would get a "C" or "D", precious few would venture into "B" territory. There has never been an "A" grade in the history of DPC. |
You are right. It is very, very rare that DPC images get into the "B" category and they never make it to an "A". That is my whole point. :)
In my thermodynamics class (Yes, I had one called quantum thermodynamice. I majored in physics and astronomy in college) our scores were more typical. People actually score above 90% on a regular basis.
Your arguement is that scores in one exceptional low scoring thermodynamics class justfies an exceptionally low scoring curve for DPC images. I don't agree with that logic. |
The two venues aren't comparable anyway; a physics class is about FACTS, and your answers are either "right" or "wrong"; there's no gray area. In DPC, on the other hand, we are "grading" by PREFERENCES; it would be unrealistic to expect ANY image in the history of DPC to get a perfect, or even close-to-perfect, score. I don't see nay problem with the way things are, with the scores that are assigned to our images as a group.
From my perspective, DPC has established its own average, as it were, and statistically it hasn't varied a heck of a lot as long as I've been here. When I get a high score, I don't say to myself, "Wow! This is one of my best images ever!"; instead I say "Boy, I guess they really LIKED this one, didn't they?"
There's a big difference, if you think about it :-)
R.
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06/06/2006 03:25:09 PM · #57 |
If the goal is to ribbon, than anything lower than third place is a failure, right? Fs for everyone! |
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06/06/2006 03:26:09 PM · #58 |
I have known about this site for a couple weeks. I really like what is going on here.
I really think that Art is in the eye of the beholder. Not everybody is going to give a photo no matter how great it is a great score. I find that when I vote, unintentionally I give lower scores to those photos with subject matter that I dislike. We don't all like the same things which is why nobody gets a perfect 10 rating. It is just how it is.
From what I can tell in the short time of being here is that if you want a ribbion you would be best served to make an image that apeals to a wider audience, yet keeping the image as artistic as possible. I sometimes find myself changing scores because my initial reaction is sour but a day or two of thinking on it, I tend to change my mind.
Bottom line is this is a tremendous way to display your art. Even if 90% of the people don't "get" what you are saying 10% might really be blessed by your image and the emotion that it conveys. I agree with most on this site when they say not to worry so much about the score and focus on taking the best type of photo you can that expresses how you feel. If people get it they get it if they don't, then at least thousands saw it.
The thing that dpchallenge does do, is give you reasons to shoot images that you might not have ever tried. I think that this helps people become more creative and also helps people who take pictures professionally adapt to situations quicker and get better shots.
I tend to start at a 5 if the image is in focus...lol
-Jason- |
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06/06/2006 03:27:40 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Louis: On a related note, I really admire gsal. He enters an average of seven challenges a month, and his score rarely gets out of five territory. He has exactly one red ribbon, one top ten, and one disqualification. He hasn't been here a year yet. Though he doesn't participate much in forums, I can't recall him complaining much about anything. His favourite subject is anathema to hard-core DPCers: his kids.
He plugs away, enters challenges, does so-so, takes tons of pictures, so obviously enjoys photography... it seems to me he's got the right attitude. |
Yup, I admire that. I see a lot of people in that category, too. I consider myself to be one of them. I enter nearly every challenge, my subjects are all over the map, I am not afraid of "lowering my average". I just want to have fun and pursue my hobby. I actually QUIT photography for quite a while after I retired; now it's FUN again! Do I lose sleep over my 5.4 average? Absolutely not! Do I feel good when I get a ribbon or a top-20? You bet! Do I feel bad when I get a crappy score (see my "architecture" entry if you want a giggle; I'm a retired architectural photographer...)? Not for very long, nope :-)
Onwards and upwards, that's my motto!
Robt.
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06/06/2006 03:41:18 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
I don't look at it that way. A-F scale (ABCDF) contains 5 values. So, split up the values of the numbers: 1&2 are F, 3&4 are D, 5&6 are C, 7&8 are B, 9&10 are A. There, that is more equivocal.
At any rate, if you MUST put a 'grade' to it, for me a 1&2 fail, a 3&4 barely pass, 5 is average, 6 is average +, 7 is doing pretty good, etc... |
Of over 100,000 images submitted to DPC only about 1% have scored 7 or above. The average 3rd place finisher is barely above that.
In your view that is just "doing pretty good". That is like a principal telling everyone in their school where each and every student scored in the 99th percentile on a standardized test that they are just "doing pretty good". In most communities that would be front page news.
But that is what we tell DPC photographers every challenge. We set an impossible standard then wonder why people get frustrated and quit.
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06/06/2006 03:44:13 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by colyla: I think someone needs a hug...
Group Hug Everyone! |
Ugh! Group hugs are creepy.
:)
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 15:44:23. |
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06/06/2006 03:46:00 PM · #62 |
Yes, you're right. But at least my grading of scores are higher than yours. Your method has everyone below a 6 a failure. Mine doesn't. :)
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 15:46:47. |
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06/06/2006 03:46:32 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by stdavidson: Originally posted by dahkota:
I don't look at it that way. A-F scale (ABCDF) contains 5 values. So, split up the values of the numbers: 1&2 are F, 3&4 are D, 5&6 are C, 7&8 are B, 9&10 are A. There, that is more equivocal.
At any rate, if you MUST put a 'grade' to it, for me a 1&2 fail, a 3&4 barely pass, 5 is average, 6 is average +, 7 is doing pretty good, etc... |
Of over 100,000 images submitted to DPC only about 1% have scored 7 or above. The average 3rd place finisher is barely above that.
In your view that is just "doing pretty good". That is like a principal telling everyone in their school where each and every student scored in the 99th percentile on a standardized test that they are just "doing pretty good". In most communities that would be front page news.
But that is what we tell DPC photographers every challenge. We set an impossible standard then wonder why people get frustrated and quit. |
Conversly though how many get D's and F's? Not many A's, not many F's So most are C's, and a C is average. |
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06/06/2006 03:46:47 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by boomtap:
I tend to start at a 5 if the image is in focus...lol
-Jason- |
Me too. 5 for in focus, 4 for really in focus, 3 for super in focus, and so on. Or, 5 for in focus, 6 for a bit out of focus, 7 for sort of middle of the road focus, 8 for tending to be out of focus, 9 for really out of focus. 10 is reserved for scandalously shallow DOF images.
I gotta go. |
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06/06/2006 03:50:09 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by ursula: Originally posted by colyla: I think someone needs a hug...
Group Hug Everyone! |
Ugh! Group hugs are creepy.
:) |
I dunno, they can be fun ;-)
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06/06/2006 03:51:50 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever: Originally posted by ursula: Originally posted by colyla: I think someone needs a hug...
Group Hug Everyone! |
Ugh! Group hugs are creepy.
:) |
I dunno, they can be fun ;-) |
That's why they are creepy for us. |
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06/06/2006 03:52:42 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by stdavidson: Originally posted by Spazmo99:
In my Thermodynamics class, a 55% would have been well above the typical high score, let alone the average, for an exam.
You can't look at it on a straight scale, you really need to curve the scale to be meaningful. By your analysis, most winning images would get a "C" or "D", precious few would venture into "B" territory. There has never been an "A" grade in the history of DPC. |
You are right. It is very, very rare that DPC images get into the "B" category and they never make it to an "A". That is my whole point. :)
In my thermodynamics class (Yes, I had one called quantum thermodynamice. I majored in physics and astronomy in college) our scores were more typical. People actually score above 90% on a regular basis.
Your arguement is that scores in one exceptional low scoring thermodynamics class justfies an exceptionally low scoring curve for DPC images. I don't agree with that logic. |
Actually, grading on the curve was more the rule than the exception, I just use that class as an example because it was an extreme. For that course, those kinds of scores were typical, the material was that difficult and you were given enough work for 2 exam periods to complete in one.
In most classes a score in the 70's would be considered an "A". Most professors wanted to get a nice Gaussian distribution of scores and if the scores trended too high that was a sign the exam was too easy.
The difference between school and here is that you are free to measure your performance by any standard you wish. If you want to hold yourself up against a scale where you consider "failure" as normal, then go ahead.
I prefer a reasonable approach based on the data. Not one based on some rigid scale that defines being excellent as completely unattainable.
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 15:57:41. |
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06/06/2006 03:53:54 PM · #68 |
The highest rated photo on the site got an 8.600, and the photo is by one of the owners. And, judging strictly by the number of comments and favorites it has received, not many people like it. What does that say about the voting here?
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06/06/2006 03:54:02 PM · #69 |
Let me also say this. A 6 on this site is a 10 on others! The quality of this site is stellar, and when you get a high mark you deserve it. Most sites that do this type of thing are lame in comparison and voting is based on who you know rather than the image itself. |
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06/06/2006 03:54:35 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by micknewton: The highest rated photo on the site got an 8.600, and the photo is by one of the owners. And, judging strictly by the number of comments and favorites it has received, not many people like it. What does that say about the voting here? |
Which image is that? |
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06/06/2006 03:56:49 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by micknewton: The highest rated photo on the site got an 8.600, and the photo is by one of the owners. And, judging strictly by the number of comments and favorites it has received, not many people like it. What does that say about the voting here? |
That 500 challenges ago, for the very first challenge, more than 100 fewer voters voted 9 entries slightly higher than they vote 300+ now? I'm not sure that proves much of anything.
Message edited by author 2006-06-06 16:06:15. |
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06/06/2006 03:59:19 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by micknewton: The highest rated photo on the site got an 8.600, and the photo is by one of the owners. And, judging strictly by the number of comments and favorites it has received, not many people like it. What does that say about the voting here? |
It proves that when you have only 9 entries in a challenge, there's a LOT more likely to be consensus on which the best one is. If we restricted every challenge to only 9 entries, we'd see much higher winning scores today, I wager...
R.
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06/06/2006 04:00:20 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by mk: Originally posted by fotomann_forever: Originally posted by ursula: Originally posted by colyla: I think someone needs a hug...
Group Hug Everyone! |
Ugh! Group hugs are creepy.
:) |
I dunno, they can be fun ;-) |
That's why they are creepy for us. |
Knowing that it's about 50-50 that Leroy is wearing clothes and 50-50 that he's not smothered in some dairy product makes it creepy for everyone else too. |
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06/06/2006 04:01:17 PM · #74 |
If we voted 1 to 10 here, then 5.5 is average, but as the chart here shows we vote below average. The trendlines shows we are dropping our averages scores, but in my opinion the quality of pictures is improving.
Note that recent challenges are the left and old on the right. I didn't have time to flip 'em since this was a quickie.
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06/06/2006 04:01:26 PM · #75 |
Ok, so if 8.6 is the highest then
8-10=Immortality and lots of lovin.
7-8=A
6-7=B
4-6=C
2-4=D
1-2=F
That would be more realistic right? |
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