Question for Council - DPChallenge Forums

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

11/20/2005 08:24:43 AM · #1

One of the rules for submission is as follows:

"Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand."

With specific regards to the last sentence, I really think it is out of line to be discussing submissions openly before the contest has begun.

In a thread entiled and about the challenge "Cheaters!", many are expressing their ideas in open public rather than generalizing the contest theme itself. What has now been stated for "ideas" is tax evation, specific breaking of the rules in certain games mentioned, defying gravity (which has now inspired another to enter their entry), breaking the rules of photography, and even cheating on ones spouse, among several others (which I am quite sure has now even given others ideas they could not come up with on their own).

In the Odd & Even discussion, one even stated a title they were interested in using that is now close to my own in which I had to change it due to that discussion.

Some of us, including myself, came up with ideas on our own through research and are proud of our entries, and submitted them quite early with pride. With this type of discussion and collaboration being allowed, "without express permission by council" so it seems, then it seems to me that those of us that have similar entries to those now publicly mentioned may be hindered in our own entrie's votes, and the viewer may now see our entries more as cliche` rather than an original thought, as it has already been mentioned in public.

I truly believe such disucussion is breaking submission rules according to the statement of contacting council about collaboration before collaborating publicly on entries to certain themes. It takes away the anonymity factor as well, and could even be influential towards votes.

Considering this has caused me to change titles on one entry of mine already, I find this open discussion to be a hinderance to the rules, to anonymity, and to others being more original in their entries rather then getting ideas from those openly collaborating.

In Triptych the disscussion was more along the lines of how to make the trip into three, rather than stating what to enter, and when one like myself mentioned I was not interested in one photo entries given three frames, I was accused of influencing voters or votes. I find that what is going on here in such discussions about Odds & Evens and Cheaters to be far much more influential.

Would you please review those threads and see if you agree?

Thank you,
Rose

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

11/20/2005 08:35:24 AM · #2

If you need to direct questions to the Site Council, you can use the following form:

//www.dpchallenge.com/help_contact.php

This forum is viewable by everyone, and anyone can respond to your post. You stated the question is for the Council.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

11/20/2005 08:40:48 AM · #3

Thank you Jhonan for the link. I have now submitted it by way of that link. I really don't mind if others see this publicly, however, or even want to respond to it, unless council removes it. I will not be making any comments further on the issue of this question, and I think it is good that others read it openly. It may spark others to adhere better to the rules and the idea of anonymity when discussing, not in general, their ideas for contest submissions.

Rose

wewillexplore

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

11/20/2005 08:48:15 AM · #4

I don't collaborate and almost-never enter but let me drop a few thoughts in here:

I think the rules mean something that could be deemed the copyright being shared with two people. If you tell me to take a picture of a box, and I go do the lighting, composition, color, etc, then you can't come back on me for that. If you tell me to go take a picture of a model and while I'm composing the shot you move the model's arm into a nicer position, we're collaborating and if I tried to sell the photo, you'd be entitled to claim part of the copyright as well. Does that make sense?

"Take a picture of your wife cheating" isn't collaboration. There are still 10 million photos under the sun that fit that description. It's not narrow enough. However if someone posted in the forums "take a picture of your wife's feet and man feet naked together under the sheet while a shadow of a man with a briefcase is cast on them like he just came home from work and make the wife look up over the sheets with a look of shock" THAT is collaboration and should not happen under the rules.

M

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

11/20/2005 08:56:58 AM · #5

Current Challenge
Discuss the current challenge and how you feel about it or ideas you may haveâ�¦

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

11/20/2005 08:59:25 AM · #6

Originally posted by mavrik:

I will comment on this one because I do see your point of view, however, collaboration means: To work together, especially in a joint intellectual effort. Which can mean either your interpretation as well as working independantly (as is also part of the definition). If one actually says "my husband says I should take a picture of my son using game cheats on his video games" or when one says "the only thing I could think of is my son slightly turning the dice in a game", then to me that is outwardly giving direct examples intellectually to others on what to enter.

Also, when one says "how about defying the law of gravity", of course that can mean many different ideas and had they said "how about an apple floating in mid air" would be more succinct, I still think that gernally all know what defying gravity means, therefore many ideas are coming now from the one intellectual idea.

As with Odds and Evens, to openly state a good title for an entry which just so happens to be my own, I find that over stepping the boundries of the rules by stating it directly. Now others won't know if it is my entry or the person who mentioned it. So I had to change mine when I entered it nearly the day the contest opened.

This is all in the meaning of collaboration, and I just don't think it is proper to be discussing it in this manner. If one has questions on what is meant by the theme description, I can understand that type of conversation. But to continue on and say "what about this? and what about that? Is that legal?", then these are questions for council in private, and should not be openly discussed.

Rose

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Nikon

11/20/2005 09:03:41 AM · #7

As this is primarily a site for learning, and as the challenges result only in a virtual .gif image of a ribbon, and only really lead to a slight increase in views and bragging rights, and nothing more, and as it is virtually impossible to stop people from discussing a challenge.. I do believe you are getting worked up over nothing.

However, I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and I'm not going to tell you to just sit back, relax, and have fun.. (Pete forbid anyone should).

Just my feelings on the subject. These challenges were never meant to be taken *THIS* seriously.

blemt

Nikon D70

11/20/2005 09:08:51 AM · #8

Actually, we encourage discussion of what is/is not legal in public forums. By having those discussions it allows newer users to gain better understanding of rules.

It also helps SC understand how those rules are viewed by the community as a whole. This aids us in clarifying rules and some times changing them.

The discussion phase pre-challenge is a double edged sword. On the one hand a major focus of this site is education. Only through discussion of ideas can we learn. On the other hand it is a pain in the tush when someone brings up an idea that you may have. It's a challenge for you as a photographer. Is your vision strong enough to get the viewer past the fact that this may or may not be an original idea? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

If you feel that a discussion is violating the TOS, please, please, please use the Report Post button so SC can look at the specific post in question.

As always, we really appreciate the feedback from everyone on ways to make the site better. :)

Clara

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

11/20/2005 09:08:56 AM · #9

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Current Challenge
Discuss the current challenge and how you feel about it or ideas you may haveâ�¦

Ideas? But here is where that conflicts with submission rules on collaboration in my opinion. What if I said on the Cheaters thread "It was suggested to me that a good entry would be taking a picture of someone playing cards with a card clearly being shown hiding up their sleeve". And my friend told me I should title it, "Card Shark" or "Diamond Jim". What do you think?". Now, what if someone entered that idea already, prior to the discussion? Wouldn't the owner of that idea be a little ticked off that their idea was mentioned in public? If you would say no to that, then I can tell you right now that I would disagree. Now the entrant of that entry may feel his entry was a waste of work cause everyone will be looking to see if it is there, it will be looked upon as a cliche` idea rather than one he/she was happy to enter at the time, etc. I guess it has to happen to you and your entry before it can feel as intrusive, but I await to see what council says on it.

EDITED TO ADD: And what if you do see that entry now, and you happen to know the person who mentioned it and think it is theirs? Would you tend to vote higher on it? AND the other way around. What if you don't like me and think that I did enter it, and you vote it low for those reasons (and MANY do, so lets not go there and say that doesn't happen with voting), and it isn't mine but anothers? Then they suffer for it. I just don't think it is of good encouragement to discuss "certain" issues publicly on "ideas" for challenges rather than keeping the discussion more in general about the description and understanding that description.

Rose

Message edited by author 2005-11-20 09:30:27.

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

11/20/2005 09:19:18 AM · #10

Originally posted by Artyste:

I think this response is an expected one from someone whose profiles says this among much more:

Sept. 5, 2005 - This is my official retirement from DPC challenge submitting. I've grown rather bored and uninspired by the site itself lately, as my brand of photography is too personal and uniform to be compatible with 99% of the challenges here. I've kind of found my niche and style, and it isn't very "mass appeal" worthy.........

Some of us don't feel that way, and we do take it seriously and have not retired from challenge submitting. But thank you for your input and enjoy your relaxation, your sitting back and watching, and the fun you are having with your personal work you "know" is good.

Rose

11/20/2005 09:23:23 AM · #11

Originally posted by Rose8699:

Originally posted by Artyste:
As this is primarily a site for learning, and as the challenges result only in a virtual .gif image of a ribbon, and only really lead to a slight increase in views and bragging rights, and nothing more, and as it is virtually impossible to stop people from discussing a challenge.. I do believe you are getting worked up over nothing.

However, I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and I'm not going to tell you to just sit back, relax, and have fun.. (Pete forbid anyone should).

Just my feelings on the subject. These challenges were never meant to be taken *THIS* seriously.

I think this response is an expected one from someone whose profiles says this among much more:

Sept. 5, 2005 - This is my official retirement from DPC challenge submitting. I've grown rather bored and uninspired by the site itself lately, as my brand of photography is too personal and uniform to be compatible with 99% of the challenges here. I've kind of found my niche and style, and it isn't very "mass appeal" worthy.........

Some of us don't feel that way, and we do take it seriously and have not retired from challenge submitting. But thank you for your input and enjoy your relaxation, your sitting back and watching, and the fun you are having with your personal work you "know" is good.

Rose

Heh. Things change. I've had my sabbatical, but just haven't gotten around to changing the profile. Regardless, I'm not the only one that thinks the way I stated, and believe a great many people do... people that enter just about every challenge and are frequently a part of these discussions you seem so upset by.

*shrug* Like I said, I just wanted to respond, I know that I have no chance of changing your mind or anything, nor do I care to.

rex

Canon PowerShot SD780

11/20/2005 09:24:38 AM · #12

....................and I click "ignore"

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

11/20/2005 09:24:39 AM · #13

Originally posted by blemt:

Well, in considering these statements you have made, I guess it is a two edged sword. Thankfully my own idea for both Odd/Even or for Cheaters has not been publicly stated as of yet, other than just the title to one. However, I guess if stating ideas openly is what the Current Challenge forum is for, yet no collaboration without express permission is what it says in the submission rules, then there will be conflicting views on this matter.

I do expect and enjoy that my photos stand on their own, and submit them in that way long before such discussions take place. I set my own personal goals for scores, so that is really of no concern either as to how I place when it is virtually impossible to calculate a win. I did have to change my title though. I mean, you can hope your photo stands on its own, but to have a title with it that has been publicly mentioned already kind of detracts.

In any case, thank you for your input Clara! I appreciate it.

Rose

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

11/20/2005 09:28:31 AM · #14

I took an image of a bug on a flower for the last Macro Challenge. There were threads and random statements about how boring or common Macro bug and flower shots had become.

I didn't care and neither did many other entrants from what I could tell. I didn't "own" the idea for starters and neither would the "card shark" photographer be the owner of that idea. You'll see over time that many people had the exact same idea in many Challenges and if it was a good idea and well taken photo...you will more than likely fare well in the competition.

DPCers do have free will and many people that enter Challenges don't even read the forums so it's not worth getting worked up over.

I've just noticed that you have only been here since November 2nd. Not very long. Just let the site unfold and have fun with it however imperfect it may be. Like Artyste stated...these are only virtual ribbons...they're cool but not worth getting worked up over.

Cheers!

Message edited by author 2005-11-20 09:31:20.

11/20/2005 09:37:31 AM · #15

I just thought of an anecdote.

In the "Wooden" challenge, a lot of discussion before the challenge centered on the use of "Woody" (the little mannequin doll used for lighting and set-ups etc.), and ideas for using him/her/it, how people would vote them down, how much the were hated.. etc, etc, etc.

A lot of people backed out of using Woody because they felt the discussions ruined any chances of doing well with one.

However, I entered a woody shot *anyway*. I didn't care about the discussions, I just realized that I would need an idea that would set it apart from everyting *despite* the discussions that were ongoing and the "collaborations" as you will, and I managed to pull out a decent score (6.2), and a lot of great comments.

So you see, it isn't about destroying people's ideas or chances or collaborating in order to cheat or get yourself a better score, or any hundreds of other things.. it's simply about trying to figure out what a challenge is, what people may or may not be looking for, and in the end, finding an idea and an entry that you can be happy about yourself.. regardless of anything else that goes on.

That's how I feel about it anyway.

These discussions have been a part of DPC for a long time. Someone is always upset or worried about them from time to time, and posts and discussions that do cross the line into very specific descriptions of challenge entries generally *do* get dealt with.

As Blemt said, the "report post" button is very helpful for that sort of thing, so don't hesitate to use it.

Most of all, my original statement stands. Regardless of how I personally feel about this site from time to time, (and I do get bored/frustrated/angered/digusted by it), I generally have more fun with it than anything else.

So here's to finding ways to be a little more creative with "basic" or "common" ideas that everyone may talk about, and putting something in a challenge that can make people go.. "hey, wish I'd thought of that"

Quantaray AF 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 LD Tele-Macro for Canon

11/20/2005 09:41:48 AM · #16

Originally posted by pawdrix:

In the Triptych challenge, there was general discussion and debate on Trips. I stated that I was disliking trips entered where one photo was given three frames and called a triptych. Technically it is a triptych, but it was not of my personal liking. I was openly accused of influencing voters with my opinion, and argumentative discussion followed ad nauseum over my opinion. This by those who are not "newbies". I guess even some of you that have been here much longer than I do take the graphic ribbons seriously, and do get worked up over nothing and need to relax. I have to take that into consideration as well.

In any case, council has answered my question and it seems that all is a go unless TOS has been violated. With that, this thread and any further discussion is really of no matter. I mean, its only a virtual ribbon, so we can drop it now and go on giving out ideas to challenges we think are legit ones and that will spark further conversation on even more ideas. It's all in the learning.

Thank you to those that "added" to the conversation.

Rose

Apple iPhone

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Nikon

11/20/2005 09:42:00 AM · #17

I truthfully think that discussion of the upcoming challenges and ideas being tossed around spark creativity. Ideas beget ideas!