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10/28/2005 02:00:35 PM · #26 |
Maybe I'm starting to take this thread as a little too personally, but I'm a little concerned at the responses.
Customs agents in Canada have less authority to hold and detain people that their counterparts from the US. In this case, while unfortunate, they do have the right to investigate and search belongings. As in the example of Mr. Pasdeck from Illinois that DrAchoo provided, it is known that deviants try to smuggle child porn material across the border.
So in this case, there was nothing found. But what if it were the reverse situation ... A customs agent finds a laptop with thousands of images but decides not to search it and as a result, thousands of child porn images are not found ... then to me, that is worse than detaining someone for a couple of hours.
Again, I'm sorry that innocent individuals are inconvenienced.
However, let's keep in mind that this is not a Canada only thing. I'm sure that many think it's fine that I was searched in Boston. I'm also sure that many believe it was okay to totally unpack all my belongings in San Jose without any concern for how it was all going to get back together. I personally didn't question it despite the personal violation and inconvience. That's American National Security and that is important.
Well, there are policies and procedures that a Canada custom's official is governed by and apparently this situation raised a flag and someone had to sit around for 2 hours. It's not fun, but it's understandable given the state of the world! |
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10/28/2005 02:01:18 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by robs:
- You have another passport? - Yes several.
- Why do you have other passports? - Cause I can.
..... at this point things went further down hill |
Ha, ya that would be trouble. I have two passports as well (Canada/US), but would never have thought of using one on an exit and one on an entry. I've always just left one at home.
The US does not officially recognize dual citizenship, but has chosen to turn a blind eye to it. I guess if you yank that eye open and poke it with multiple passports you are gonna get a reaction... |
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10/28/2005 02:03:59 PM · #28 |
After 9-11 I do not care what they do. I would rather have my rights sacraficed if there is a chance to stop someone from creating havoc.
JMHO |
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10/28/2005 02:04:20 PM · #29 |
Request for "additional back-up", namely the supervisor. If they say they're not available, they are on lunch. Than you ask for the shift manager.
Did you have your camera with you?
Also, ask for an internet connection. Go to DPC and show them your profile. This will show that a) your not anonymous b) that you have a public interest in photography and should meet "reasonable expectation".
What they did was beyond "reasonable justification". As such, whenever something goes beyond reasonable justification so as to cause an excessive delay (2 hours is excessive) and is out of the norm. Well you've got a two hour headache. Plenty of time to go up the channels. And if you have a cell phone - call outside in order to get to higher channels.
We, the People, should be willing to give a reasonable justification due process. But when it goes out of reason we must ensure we take a stance to ensure we do not experience undue loss of our rights.
We have rights, we must exert them....
I once went thru an extended check because I had an old laptop with a dead battery. They made me turn it on to prove it wasn't a bomb. (Which IMHO is damn stupid. If I were to build a bomb into a laptop I would utilize said laptop. It's got an internal clock, timing, and signal mechanism. So we eventually found an outlet and I plugged in the machine turn it on to boot. And was cleared. Lame. But such, (other than being a moronic poorly thought out logic that a computer that turns on is not a bomb) was within reason and took approx. 15 minutes.
I had no complaints. They were justified in their inquiry by my laptop operating outside of normal parameters. And that is what they need to understand.
Sadly, most of the safeguards in place have nothing to do with security. They are merely done to make people "think" they are safe. Anyone with half a bomb can by-pass most things security does.
- a simple gel-coated explosive swallowed and slowly dissolving in the stomach and a window seat can easily bring down a plane
- a simple renaming of file extensions from .jpg to .mp3 and you've by-passed everything.
- 10-to-1 they didn't check "search for hidden files". So simply setting the hidden attribute would have defeated most of their efforts.
- a second log-in that has limited access. Log into that account and restrict it from accessing most of the computer.
- hiding of blades in common everyday objects. (ie: many wood rulers have a metal edge. These can be sharpened to become bladed tools. Who'd be surprised to see a ruler in a bookbag filled with college textbooks?)
- Should I mention that my fiance has flown and accidentally forgotten her pocket knife was in her pocket. *lol* So much for safety aye?
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10/28/2005 02:08:55 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by woutje:
It's not fun, but it's understandable given the state of the world! |
Don't worry woutje, I, for one, am not singling out Canada. I just don't want my rights trampled because of the "state of the world". My father and I had a discussion about this and he said that some liberties needed to be forsaken in the name of national security, but I countered that it is this very time when liberties are most important. It's easy to enforce liberty when peace pervails; it's hard when evil lurks and we want to feel "secure". What good are liberties if they are not liberties all the time?
I actually feel a little less outraged that it was a search for child porn compared to a search for something silly like blueprints to the venue for the Calgary Stampede. You can at least get an inkling of why things happened like they did.
Message edited by author 2005-10-28 14:15:13. |
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10/28/2005 02:11:26 PM · #31 |
Child porn should NOT be checked for in an airport. Sorry. I tend to hate porn in general. But to put a 2 hr delay on anyone with a laptop is foolish. Why not bus-stations? How soon till while you're walking down the street?
Considering most of these sites can be easily located. And the governments can usually access the IPs and logon histories. Would not that pursuit be much more productive? I'd wager that they could catch 10000x the child-porn holders that way than via airports. And with no inconvenience to non-offending citizens & business interests. |
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10/28/2005 02:13:29 PM · #32 |
Here (oh, careful with that URL, it has graphic titles listed in it) is a list of 'graphic' videos and such that Canadian customs agents have the right to seize... I'll bet they were looking for something like that.
Aparently, it is against the law to bring questionable materials into the country. I was stopped and detained at the Canadian border because I had a can of pepper spray in my truck. That's illegal, too.
Message edited by author 2005-10-28 14:16:28. |
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10/28/2005 02:19:07 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by bcoble:
After 9-11 I do not care what they do. I would rather have my rights sacraficed if there is a chance to stop someone from creating havoc.
JMHO |
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 |
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10/28/2005 02:38:19 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I got a pat down going through customs in Amsterdam that made me think the officer and I really should have spent more time getting to know each other first. |
I've always had this issue every single time I've flown through Amsterdam. First airport I had to remove my shoes to get xray'd too, which must have been funky after a 10 hour flight. I usually get the extra scrutiny when I fly in from Amsterdam too.
My favorite airport security moment came in Chicago pre 9-11. A huge 6'5, 300+lb black security officer (not being racist, just establishing intimidation factor) forced my 8-yr old neice to empty her bag because she had two soda cans in it. He ended up looming over her with two barbies in each hand. Was hilarious! |
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10/28/2005 02:46:18 PM · #35 |
wow that sucks sorr here about that, I cant even imaging going through that with my laptop, I have 1,000's of images in my latop. I took my laptop to hong kong with my earlier in the year and no problems at all. But my friend I went with got hauled off by security, I was talking to him going throught the metal detectors and them I turn around I see him with security. I am wondering for about 15-30 minutes or more what happened then we find out that he had a pair of scissors. His girlfriend was so mad but its was funny in a way.
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10/28/2005 03:07:12 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 |
:claps:
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10/28/2005 03:11:20 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 |
:claps: |
I had to put that quote on my blog...love it. |
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10/28/2005 03:12:33 PM · #38 |
I just got back from a trip to Canada. Took my laptop and camera with me. Never had any troubles in or out of Calgary Intl. Must have been a coincidence, it does suck you had to go through that. Guess it could have been worse though hu?
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10/28/2005 03:14:10 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 |
:claps: |
I second that! :clap, clap:
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10/28/2005 03:21:28 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by robs:
- You have another passport? - Yes several.
- Why do you have other passports? - Cause I can.
..... at this point things went further down hill |
Ha, ya that would be trouble. I have two passports as well (Canada/US), but would never have thought of using one on an exit and one on an entry. I've always just left one at home.
The US does not officially recognize dual citizenship, but has chosen to turn a blind eye to it. I guess if you yank that eye open and poke it with multiple passports you are gonna get a reaction... |
Not sure about Canada but in our case it's a REQUIREMENT to enter and leave on the national passport not on a foreign passport (i.e. US) if you are a citizen. Not like we have the option to pick one or the other to make the US side happy.
Originally posted by bcoble:
After 9-11 I do not care what they do. I would rather have my rights sacraficed if there is a chance to stop someone from creating havoc. |
Good for you - lets say we disagree; besides a beach resort in Cuba is probably a pretty nice place over all :-)
Originally posted by woutje:
Maybe I'm starting to take this thread as a little too personally, but I'm a little concerned at the responses. |
Nah - I ain't picking on Canada - I have more of an issue with other countries actually. Sad thing to me is I am sure they believe in what they do.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 |
Outstanding - Could not have said it better :-) |
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10/28/2005 03:39:27 PM · #41 |
Benjamin Franklin was a really smart guy who said a lot of smart and quoteable things and was arguably the one man most responsible for bringing about the independence of the United States.
Someplace there's an old "Favorite Quotations" thread (or two or three ...), where any further discussion along this line ought to continue. |
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10/28/2005 03:44:32 PM · #42 |
It certainly would suck having to go through that and thank goodness it happened in customs after you landed instead of when you were trying to catch a flight.
While I would not condone hiding anything from the law I'm sure most people here do not have illegal pictures on their computers so I would suggest something I had to do to keep prying eyes off my computer.
I have a few nude pics of my wife (as you said you do of your girlfriend) and when my parents came to visit me I knew they were going to need my computer and they have a habit of getting into areas they really don't belong or actually know how they got there.
So I right clicked on the folder where my pictures were and changed the properties of it and it's contents to hidden. Then I went into the main window options and told it not to show system/hidden files. Bingo, pictures hidden. I have even been known to change the extenstion to a weird windows like extension that gives an error when trying to open.
Might help if they don't make you turn that "show hidden" option on (which I'm sure they probably wouldn't in a quick check).
Hope this helps the innocent and if you do this on illegal images...SHAME ON YOU!
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10/28/2005 03:53:05 PM · #43 |
I've done my share of travelling on both business and pleasure, and I've found that there's a big consistency issue with security. Often, smaller airports tend to go overboard and larger ones are pretty lax.
Personally, I have no issues with searches, even though I've been stopped five or six times in one airport as I made my way from dropping off my bags to the gate. Though I might get a little peeved if they sat there and went through my laptop for two hours.
My problem with the whole stepping on "freedoms" or "rights" is that often the ones complaining loudest about it tend to be the same ones who blame the government for not doing a better job of "protecting" them when things go awry.
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10/28/2005 04:03:19 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by mycelium:
... Rather than having a pleasant drive with my family, I was forced to spend $148 on a taxicab to get to my destination. |
Send them an invoice for reimbursement. A letter to the local paper describing their "hospitality" might be in order as well. |
Good luck on that one.... I can guarantee you it won't even be considered. The fact remains that right or wrong, these officers were doing their duty and just as you can't sue a police officer who kicks in your door in the lawful pursuit of his/her duties, you will not prevail in this instance.
Viewed in another perspective, if you had been stuck at the airport say due to a snowstorm, surely you would not consider suing Environment Canada for not warning you that a snow storm was brewing.
Next time you visit Ottawa, call me, and if you are detained I will gladly drive you to your destination.
Ray
Message edited by author 2005-10-28 16:23:04. |
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10/28/2005 04:10:15 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
We have rights, we must exert them....
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news my friends, but the rights you are referring to I would assume are those you are accustomed to in the USA, and unfortunately, they are not the same as those exercised in this country. You have MIRANDA, we don't... take it from there.
Ray |
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10/28/2005 04:14:56 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Next time you visit Ottawa, call me, and if you are detained I will gladly drive you to your destination.
Ray |
I'd love to -- I was only there for a few hours once around 1981, and I only have a couple of pictures buried in a box somewhere. It seems quite a photogenic city. I don't think I've been in this decade, but my overall experience has been that Canadian cities are both cleaner and more civilized than their US counterparts. My next excursion will probably be towards Vancouver though, I want to take my dad there. |
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10/28/2005 04:20:04 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Next time you visit Ottawa, call me, and if you are detained I will gladly drive you to your destination.
Ray |
I'd love to -- I was only there for a few hours once around 1981, and I only have a couple of pictures buried in a box somewhere. It seems quite a photogenic city. I don't think I've been in this decade, but my overall experience has been that Canadian cities are both cleaner and more civilized than their US counterparts. My next excursion will probably be towards Vancouver though, I want to take my dad there.
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Seriously, if any of you fine folks want to visit the Ottawa area, just call me... I have an extra bedroom and would gladly show you around.
I know that there was one area I dearly wanted to visit and a very kind soul from DPC invited me to stay at his home ......and I did and had a wonderful time.
I would identify him, but fear that he would be inundated with requests.
Ray |
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10/28/2005 04:30:24 PM · #48 |
| Well a am not planing to go US ever dont like the government attitude have more important country to visit |
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10/28/2005 05:12:40 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by IceRock:
Well a am not planing to go US ever dont like the government attitude have more important country to visit |
Thanks for letting us know. I'm sure everyone here will be disappointed when I relay the announcement. |
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10/28/2005 05:13:48 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
Originally posted by IceRock:
Well a am not planing to go US ever dont like the government attitude have more important country to visit |
Thanks for letting us know. I'm sure everyone here will be disappointed when I relay the announcement. |
darn.
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