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10/26/2005 01:44:54 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Methos -- Let me break down what I am trying to say. What the US "pays" for the manufacturing of those goods is far FAR less than what labour in the US would be paid. Next, neither the goods nor the money they make go into the economy of the producing country, so there is little to no positive economic effect because labour is being taken OUT at a rate far below what is being given back.
That is to say, more is taken out than put back in. |
Are you keeping in mind the displaced worker in America that are a byproduct of off shore sourcing?
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10/26/2005 01:51:50 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Are you keeping in mind the displaced worker in America that are a byproduct of off shore sourcing? |
Who do you think is to blame (if there is any blame, maybe it is the wrong word) - or whom can we attribute the said displacement? |
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10/26/2005 01:55:38 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Are you keeping in mind the displaced worker in America that are a byproduct of off shore sourcing? |
Who do you think is to blame (if there is any blame, maybe it is the wrong word) - or whom can we attribute the said displacement? |
The answer is, of course, American business and the American consumer. I've never seen outsourcing as a bad thing. It is merely spreading the wealth on a global scale and will probably lead to more stability in the long run. The more disparate the "haves" and "have nots" are, the more we are risking war (in whatever form). |
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10/26/2005 01:59:43 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Are you keeping in mind the displaced worker in America that are a byproduct of off shore sourcing? |
Who do you think is to blame (if there is any blame, maybe it is the wrong word) - or whom can we attribute the said displacement? |
The answer is, of course, American business and the American consumer. I've never seen outsourcing as a bad thing. It is merely spreading the wealth on a global scale and will probably lead to more stability in the long run. The more disparate the "haves" and "have nots" are, the more we are risking war (in whatever form). |
Totally agree. The US has a major advantage over other countries. We have all the people that wanted change and oppurtunity so bad that they were willing do whatever it took to get here from their original countries.
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10/26/2005 02:00:12 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Are you keeping in mind the displaced worker in America that are a byproduct of off shore sourcing? |
Who do you think is to blame (if there is any blame, maybe it is the wrong word) - or whom can we attribute the said displacement? |
The American consumer is to blame.
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10/26/2005 02:05:32 PM · #56 |
This China thing really amazes me. Must be what other countries thought 50-60 years ago.
It seems almost everything I pick up nowadays is made there. I was shocked (not sure why) when I was unpacking my new Dell PC a couple months ago. Made in China was all over everything that had any kind of wrapping on it. Pick up a kids toy...China. Bought a 'Batman' mask for Halloween at Walmart the other night...made in China. My 'Gander Mtn' coffee travel mug on my desk...made in China.
The list could go on and on (if I didn't already). ;^) Just amazing.
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10/26/2005 02:06:15 PM · #57 |
I would toss labor unions in the mix also - driving up the cost of labor certainly hasn't helped.
Originally posted by MeThoS:
... The American consumer is to blame. |
Message edited by author 2005-10-26 14:06:34.
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10/26/2005 02:15:28 PM · #58 |
Now I'll try to agree with all (impossible I know) by slightly correcting the answer(s):
The consumers that disproportionately spend more than they need (american or other, does not matter really) are feeding corporations to produce more than necessary, at low cost. The wide drift is created, poor get poorer, (including HUGE percentage of US population in terms relative to their surrounding), rich get richer, and the said polarization creates instability.
You might have noticed in the article thatcloudthere linked to that the void in Kashmir is filled with hardliners, and that is something to be concerned with - not the fact that someone tells others to give.
This is happening everywhere in the world, instead of bridging the gap, it is widening, and the void is filled with undesirable elements that gain power by blaming the other side, be it local riches, be it americans, british, french, you name it.
This should also be considered when making decisions about helping others in need. (I'm not talking about you or me donating, I am talking about the global-level help from governments).
Ah, too much is going on to be ignored and to hope that these poor people would just go away.
Karl Marx wrote about it years ago - his ideas on how to solve it may be wrong, but he was dead on when he explained how it all works. It's a good reading if you ever get a chance. |
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10/26/2005 02:17:10 PM · #59 |
As a side comment, I find it ironic people think that China's recent economic boom in trying to be like the west is some sort of good thing. That maybe all countries one day can be like the west and waste resources at a mind boggling rate so that our grandchildren will live lives of poverty and poison due to our unsustainable shortsighted expansion and wastefulness.
Bottom line, living like Americans is unsustainable. If all the world suddenly all started driving cars, using AC, buying big screen TV's and eating at restaurants several times a week, we would run out of resources in a few years and poison the Earth possibly beyond repair. |
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10/26/2005 02:49:23 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
This China thing really amazes me....
It seems almost everything I pick up nowadays is made there. |
Funny story...my mother bought a sticker in Niagara Falls with a bright red Canada flag on it and the words "Made in Canada" on the front to put on her Christmas letter to family. On the back of the sticker was a smaller, gold oval sticker that said...you guessed it..."Made in China". |
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10/26/2005 03:48:16 PM · #61 |
Scary thing is...what's it going to take to slow down the momentum?
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
This China thing really amazes me....
It seems almost everything I pick up nowadays is made there. |
Funny story...my mother bought a sticker in Niagara Falls with a bright red Canada flag on it and the words "Made in Canada" on the front to put on her Christmas letter to family. On the back of the sticker was a smaller, gold oval sticker that said...you guessed it..."Made in China". |
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10/26/2005 04:04:20 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Scary thing is...what's it going to take to slow down the momentum?
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
This China thing really amazes me....
It seems almost everything I pick up nowadays is made there. |
Funny story...my mother bought a sticker in Niagara Falls with a bright red Canada flag on it and the words "Made in Canada" on the front to put on her Christmas letter to family. On the back of the sticker was a smaller, gold oval sticker that said...you guessed it..."Made in China". |
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As China "grows up" there wagees will go up and they will start outsourcing to places with even cheaper labor. South Korea already outsources a lot of work.
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10/26/2005 04:06:55 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Scary thing is...what's it going to take to slow down the momentum?
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Peak Oil. It is the cure for globalization. Without cheap oil for transport and mass production, everything goes back to local.
Message edited by author 2005-10-26 16:07:37. |
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10/26/2005 04:07:45 PM · #64 |
Really think so? Does a communist state ever "grow up" to the point where the people of China will earn higher wages, etc...
edit to add...I'm heading out of the office now, as much as I would love to continue this conversation. ;^) L8R!
Originally posted by louddog:
...As China "grows up" there wagees will go up and they will start outsourcing to places with even cheaper labor. South Korea already outsources a lot of work. |
Message edited by author 2005-10-26 16:09:06.
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10/26/2005 04:27:07 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Really think so? Does a communist state ever "grow up" to the point where the people of China will earn higher wages, etc...
edit to add...I'm heading out of the office now, as much as I would love to continue this conversation. ;^) L8R!
Originally posted by louddog:
...As China "grows up" there wagees will go up and they will start outsourcing to places with even cheaper labor. South Korea already outsources a lot of work. |
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The free market system always finds a way. If wages are held down artifically people will leave and the country will fall apart.
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10/26/2005 04:58:59 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by louddog:
The free market system always finds a way. If wages are held down artifically people will leave and the country will fall apart. |
I agree in general with this statement, but, applied to China, where exactly would 1+ billion people move to? |
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10/26/2005 05:58:28 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Let's see. Africa for starters. AIDS epedimic. Starving countries. Yet they still reproduce like mad. Some of it is based on old customs, most of it on ignorance. Common sense will tell you that if you don't have enough food for the people in your country right now, you shouldn't have more babies.
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Americans have families - Africans reproduce!
If your future depended on having children to support you in your old age ( probably 40- 50years of age in African terms due to poor health and food) you just might have a large family just to make sure at least one or two get to maturity. This is exactly what happened in Victorian Britain and in America and many other countries before there was a good health policy to improve the chances of children living beyond 3years of age.
All this talk of giving being political or money needed at home seems to miss the point. I think the word humanity needs to be heard not countries and borders.
America was happy to receive offers of aid from other countries for Katrina, which was a mismanaged farce and not a major disaster in the human terms of the tsunami or this earthquake. America has the finances to deal with all their problems if the politicians got their act sorted out, the same way as Britain and western Europe. It's not that there isn't money in the coffers to save the homeless etc in our own countries but it is earmarked for other areas like Iraq. Funny how enough money suddenly appeared and continues to appear to finance this war yet can't be found to improve the welfare of our own people AND give sufficient aid to help other humans in dire need around the globe.
P
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10/26/2005 06:07:08 PM · #68 |
So suddenly everyone who doesn't readily donate is a political genius to avoid the cost? I say 'out' anyone who's too embroiled in 'right' and 'wrong' to pay up. Ivory towers and all that.
I'm a bit disgusted at this site for promoting only the Katrina aid via Prints! and not this much more needy disaster. I know it takes effort to put in place, but that's precisely the point... |
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10/26/2005 06:09:29 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by MeThoS:
Let's see. Africa for starters. AIDS epedimic. Starving countries. Yet they still reproduce like mad. Some of it is based on old customs, most of it on ignorance. Common sense will tell you that if you don't have enough food for the people in your country right now, you shouldn't have more babies.
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Americans have families - Africans reproduce!
If your future depended on having children to support you in your old age ( probably 40- 50years of age in African terms due to poor health and food) you just might have a large family just to make sure at least one or two get to maturity. This is exactly what happened in Victorian Britain and in America and many other countries before there was a good health policy to improve the chances of children living beyond 3years of age.
All this talk of giving being political or money needed at home seems to miss the point. I think the word humanity needs to be heard not countries and borders.
America was happy to receive offers of aid from other countries for Katrina, which was a mismanaged farce and not a major disaster in the human terms of the tsunami or this earthquake. America has the finances to deal with all their problems if the politicians got their act sorted out, the same way as Britain and western Europe. It's not that there isn't money in the coffers to save the homeless etc in our own countries but it is earmarked for other areas like Iraq. Funny how enough money suddenly appeared and continues to appear to finance this war yet can't be found to improve the welfare of our own people AND give sufficient aid to help other humans in dire need around the globe.
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I think it's funny how Iraq keeps coming up from other countries. I really don't see Iraq, Iran, or N. Korea having a weapon that has enough range to hit US soil. But of coarse we are just looking out for ourselves...
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10/26/2005 06:14:05 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
I think it's funny how Iraq keeps coming up from other countries. I really don't see Iraq, Iran, or N. Korea having a weapon that has enough range to hit US soil. But of coarse we are just looking out for ourselves... |
Don't shoot yourself in the foot here ( friendly fire?)
Remember which country came into the war with you. I think I have every right to mention it in context of the amount of money it is costing us.
And if you still believe this war was about defence, is your other name rip van winkle because you must have slept through the past months. I do not want to travel down that route of debate, however, as I think it has all been said here before. Let's keep to the question of money and aid.
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10/26/2005 06:18:24 PM · #71 |
So for all the people that think we should all give more, HOW MUCH MONEY HAVE YOU PERSONALLY GIVEN TO YOUR CAUSE?
Just curious.
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10/26/2005 06:25:15 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by MeThoS:
So for all the people that think we should all give more, HOW MUCH MONEY HAVE YOU PERSONALLY GIVEN TO YOUR CAUSE?
Just curious. |
I'm afraid your curiousity will not be answered by me! What I give to charitable causes is between me, my husband, my tax form and my conscience!
Here we are discussing government aid I thought that is budgeted for by all countries that can afford it ( ie Western countries )
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10/26/2005 06:38:09 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by louddog:
The free market system always finds a way. If wages are held down artifically people will leave and the country will fall apart. |
I agree in general with this statement, but, applied to China, where exactly would 1+ billion people move to? |
New Jersey
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10/26/2005 06:45:01 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by MeThoS:
So for all the people that think we should all give more, HOW MUCH MONEY HAVE YOU PERSONALLY GIVEN TO YOUR CAUSE?
Just curious. |
I'm afraid your curiousity will not be answered by me! What I give to charitable causes is between me, my husband, my tax form and my conscience!
Here we are discussing government aid I thought that is budgeted for by all countries that can afford it ( ie Western countries )
P |
Nope. The original posted just said for everybody to give more.
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10/26/2005 07:20:40 PM · #75 |
methos -- it seems to me that you are quite good at saying controversial things but then failing to address your critics and simply asking more questions or changing the subject. From this thread, it seems your thought patterns are all over the map. I say this only as an observation as there have been so many topics raised in this thread it is now impossible for me to speak on any of them at length.
Suffice it to say, I wish we had prints set up for Pakistan. I'd be the first to put my few prints up for sale.
I agree with riponlady that its none of your business how much we each gave personally, but I did donate (to satisfy your curiosity) and on the topic of rich countries and giving aid, I think debt forgiveness and aid are two useful things richer countries can do to help those countries who lack the infrastructure and resources to be a "super power" and are relegated to being the low paid labour for richer countries. I don't see it as entitlement, I see it as simply giving back to countries on whose backs and from whose resources, western nations have developed. From colonization forward. It seems its always those with the biggest guns that seem to be the "smartest" at gaining wealth.
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