For those of you with money - DPChallenge Forums

10/26/2005 01:04:45 PM · #26

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Originally posted by mavrik:
Bad news entry to link to. What kind of Commie crap is that article?

Originally posted by article:
"It said the US, Japan, Germany and Italy had given less than their "fair share" as large economies."
"Governments meeting in Geneva... must put their hands in their pockets and pay their fair share. The public will be shocked that so many rich governments have given so little," he said.

It's a flipping DONATION. It's CHARITY. This is the moral equivalent of the homeless guy standing on the street corner asking us for money. What is a "fair" share to give them? Who are they to ask for money in such a manner?

I'm appalled that someone would say it's "fair" to give them aid. It's each country's own responsibility to take care of their own - what's next, World Welfare?

I think we have enough problems with Wilma and Katrina and homelessness and joblessness and our economy and education and literacy to worry about. I think we all "donated" quite enough to Katrina victims to appease our sense of "doing something good." Anything people do to help people halfway across the Earth should be considered BONUS not flipping REQUIRED!

M

Interesting (to say the least) that you would call an organization that is devoted to helping PEOPLE deal with poverty, provide relief, and end suffering, communist, just because they used the word "fair." Let's all hire lawyers to dissect why Oxfam using the phrase "fair share" is so unfair, that would certainly be very productive in helping people.

If you're so worried about world welfare then I think you should rail against corporate welfare as well, since corporations have gotten far more money and help than those unfortunate enough to be born into poverty.

Sheesh!

Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking? Go get a skill with high demand, then get a job earning a decent wage. Earning it is much better for everybody over a hand out.

10/26/2005 01:07:01 PM · #27

Originally posted by MeThoS:

EXCUSE ME? Are you honestly saying this is what the impoverished should do in countries like India, China, Pakistan, Kenya, Ethiopia? Truly, they should just get off their asses, go to ITT Tech and become a computer technician, right? Lots of demand for that sort of work! They're so lazy!

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

10/26/2005 01:09:25 PM · #28

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Your ignorance is disgusting. Find out what's going on in the world around you. In parts of Eastern Europe, much of the "skilled labour" involves selling your 9 year old son to white men to have fun with so that your family can eat for the day. In Sudan, it means 5 year old orphans farming the land. In Uzbekistan it means that 15 year old girls prostitute themselves to stay alive.

I encourage you to learn about the world around you. You may find your smug self-approval crashing down around you very quickly.

Message edited by author 2005-10-26 13:10:29.

wewillexplore

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

10/26/2005 01:18:13 PM · #29

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking?

What about answering his original Q?

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

10/26/2005 01:19:07 PM · #30

Originally posted by MeThoS:

I know many people who are "lacking" and live in poverty but do not feel they are "entitled." In fact, they are the hardest working people I have met, and at jobs that are less than ideal, much less. Since when is having an education/degree some kind badge that says "I've worked hard?" I also know many people that have degrees and skated by in school because they were able to. Your statement is ignorance beyond belief.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

10/26/2005 01:20:16 PM · #31

Originally posted by mavrik:

Originally posted by MeThoS:
Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking?

What about answering his original Q?

If you get to know people throughout the world that are lacking, they never feel that they are entitled to others wealth. I believe in "rich" countries, you will sometimes find that the poor feel that they are entitled to others wealth (rightly or wrongly) but this is not the case for most of the world.

Oxfam is the one who made the "fair share" claim, not the family sitting outside of the makeshift hospital tent in Pakistan.

Message edited by author 2005-10-26 13:21:26.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

10/26/2005 01:22:10 PM · #32

I find it interesting that China hasn't been mentioned. Isn't this in their backyard? And aren't they piling up a heap of money? Seems everywhere I look I see "Made in China"...

wewillexplore

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

10/26/2005 01:23:28 PM · #33

True enough. So I'd add the word "some" to Methos' post. "Why do SOME people feel they are entitled to others wealth?"

Oxfam said something stupid - I can't see that we disagree much on that.
I feel for the Pakistanis - I can't see we disagree much on that.

We're aid-ed out. That sucks, but that's the truth. A devastating hurricane in Florida right now would not get the outpouring Katrina did.

M

10/26/2005 01:23:57 PM · #34

...or I could move to Canada and criticize that America doesn't do enough, despite that fact they give more than the other countries combined.

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking? Go get a skill with high demand, then get a job earning a decent wage. Earning it is much better for everybody over a hand out.

Your ignorance is disgusting. Find out what's going on in the world around you. In parts of Eastern Europe, much of the "skilled labour" involves selling your 9 year old son to white men to have fun with so that your family can eat for the day. In Sudan, it means 5 year old orphans farming the land. In Uzbekistan it means that 15 year old girls prostitute themselves to stay alive.

I encourage you to learn about the world around you. You may find your smug self-approval crashing down around you very quickly.

10/26/2005 01:25:38 PM · #35

Originally posted by mavrik:

Originally posted by MeThoS:
Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking?

What about answering his original Q?

I know of no poor country who feels entitlement to the wealth of others. However, I do feel that when rich countries use the labour of poor countries to produce their wealth, there is an ethics and morality question with respect to what aid those countries can and morally ought to offer those countries.

10/26/2005 01:27:47 PM · #36

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking? Go get a skill with high demand, then get a job earning a decent wage. Earning it is much better for everybody over a hand out.

EXCUSE ME? Are you honestly saying this is what the impoverished should do in countries like India, China, Pakistan, Kenya, Ethiopia? Truly, they should just get off their asses, go to ITT Tech and become a computer technician, right? Lots of demand for that sort of work! They're so lazy!

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

10/26/2005 01:30:03 PM · #37

Originally posted by frisca:

But the labor is corporate based...the money being looked for is gov't provided/anticipated. So corporate America needs to do more? Gov't funds have an impact on individual taxpayers (money needs to come from somewhere).

10/26/2005 01:30:15 PM · #38

The AIDS epidemic IS NOT what we have been talking about. What I asked you was if you were honestly suggesting that the poor, who have not the means to feed or clothe themselves should simply go get an education or acquire a skill and make money that way. THAT was the topic. Not AIDS. However, if you wish to talk about the hows and whys of the AIDS epidemic, I am open to discussing that too, but I suggest you start a new thread about it.

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Let's see. Africa for starters. AIDS epedimic. Starving countries. Yet they still reproduce like mad. Some of it is based on old customs, most of it on ignorance. Common sense will tell you that if you don't have enough food for the people in your country right now, you shouldn't have more babies.

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking? Go get a skill with high demand, then get a job earning a decent wage. Earning it is much better for everybody over a hand out.

EXCUSE ME? Are you honestly saying this is what the impoverished should do in countries like India, China, Pakistan, Kenya, Ethiopia? Truly, they should just get off their asses, go to ITT Tech and become a computer technician, right? Lots of demand for that sort of work! They're so lazy!

10/26/2005 01:30:36 PM · #39

Originally posted by MeThoS:

...or I could move to Canada and criticize that America doesn't do enough, despite that fact they give more than the other countries combined.

America's strategy of purchasing military compliance through Aid and relief is another thread topic entirely. My original intent was to encourage private donations but this thread took a turn when Mavrik began to explain that he was 'aided out'.

Message edited by author 2005-10-26 13:32:19.

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

10/26/2005 01:31:32 PM · #40

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by frisca:
I know of no poor country who feels entitlement to the wealth of others. However, I do feel that when rich countries use the labour of poor countries to produce their wealth, there is an ethics and morality question with respect to what aid those countries can and morally ought to offer those countries.

But the labor is corporate based...the money being looked for is gov't provided/anticipated. So corporate America needs to do more? Gov't funds have an impact on individual taxpayers (money needs to come from somewhere).

AGREED. It is corporate based. But corporations are linked to government through taxes. This is my super simple answer to your question. I think that there is no clear delination between government and corporations when they are multinational.

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

10/26/2005 01:32:05 PM · #41

Originally posted by mavrik:

I call them communist because they said the big 'rich' economies should give to Pakistan because they can afford to.

If that's not communism, please tell me what is?

I'm not a big fan of corporate welfare either. I think the government should keep their mitts to themselves. You have a fairly wet eel grasp on my politics I'm afraid.

M

Communism/socialism, just like capitalism, is just an idealogy of systems of how to distribute the resources in a society. They can all be used for good and bad and there is nothing inherently wrong or sinister in any of them if the people that are carrying them out are doing so with ethics and without corruption, but you have chosen to call names in a derogatory fashion to people that do not warrant that kind of abuse.

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

10/26/2005 01:32:25 PM · #42

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by mavrik:

Originally posted by MeThoS:
Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking?

What about answering his original Q?

I know of no poor country who feels entitlement to the wealth of others. However, I do feel that when rich countries use the labour of poor countries to produce their wealth, there is an ethics and morality question with respect to what aid those countries can and morally ought to offer those countries.

Poor countries producing our wealth. Lets take China for example. Use to be very poor, now with the help of American companies taking most of the manufacturing over there they are increasing in wealth. Not to mention technology and manufacturing processes that they wouldn't of been able to get a hold of otherwise. We are making them stronger and wealthier. While the US wants higher wages and cheaper goods. This can't stay for long. Sooner or later there will be a backlash for outsourcing everything to China.

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

10/26/2005 01:34:56 PM · #43

Originally posted by MeThoS:

...or I could move to Canada and criticize that America doesn't do enough, despite that fact they give more than the other countries combined.

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking? Go get a skill with high demand, then get a job earning a decent wage. Earning it is much better for everybody over a hand out.

Your ignorance is disgusting. Find out what's going on in the world around you. In parts of Eastern Europe, much of the "skilled labour" involves selling your 9 year old son to white men to have fun with so that your family can eat for the day. In Sudan, it means 5 year old orphans farming the land. In Uzbekistan it means that 15 year old girls prostitute themselves to stay alive.

I encourage you to learn about the world around you. You may find your smug self-approval crashing down around you very quickly.

If I'm not mistaken, the BBC article that showed the list of nations that haven't met their stated donations included Canada, so I don't think ThatCloudThere was criticizing the United States.

10/26/2005 01:35:02 PM · #44

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by mavrik:

Originally posted by MeThoS:
Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking?

What about answering his original Q?

I know of no poor country who feels entitlement to the wealth of others. However, I do feel that when rich countries use the labour of poor countries to produce their wealth, there is an ethics and morality question with respect to what aid those countries can and morally ought to offer those countries.

Poor countries producing our wealth. Lets take China for example. Use to be very poor, now with the help of American companies taking most of the manufacturing over there they are increasing in wealth. Not to mention technology and manufacturing processes that they wouldn't of been able to get a hold of otherwise. We are making them stronger and wealthier. While the US wants higher wages and cheaper goods. This can't stay for long. Sooner or later there will be a backlash for outsourcing everything to China.

Outsourcing is NOT why China is prospering. China's wealth has come from them taking more countrol over their trade and labour, not from American companies using their labour force to produce goods. Where are you getting your information?

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

10/26/2005 01:36:59 PM · #45

China is prospering because we want nice stuff, but don't want to pay for it.

10/26/2005 01:37:13 PM · #46

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by MeThoS:

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by mavrik:

Originally posted by MeThoS:
Why do people think they are entitled to others wealth JUST because they are lacking?

What about answering his original Q?

I know of no poor country who feels entitlement to the wealth of others. However, I do feel that when rich countries use the labour of poor countries to produce their wealth, there is an ethics and morality question with respect to what aid those countries can and morally ought to offer those countries.

Poor countries producing our wealth. Lets take China for example. Use to be very poor, now with the help of American companies taking most of the manufacturing over there they are increasing in wealth. Not to mention technology and manufacturing processes that they wouldn't of been able to get a hold of otherwise. We are making them stronger and wealthier. While the US wants higher wages and cheaper goods. This can't stay for long. Sooner or later there will be a backlash for outsourcing everything to China.

Outsourcing is NOT why China is prospering. China's wealth has come from them taking more countrol over their trade and labour, not from American companies using their labour force to produce goods. Where are you getting your information?

Are you telling me that billions of us money going into China for manufacturing hasn't halped it prosper?

10/26/2005 01:38:20 PM · #47

MeThoS...are you really trying to advocate the idea that having poor countries produce our goods is good for them?

Next you will tell me that the subsidizing of American crops is doing wonders for the African farming industry.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

10/26/2005 01:41:03 PM · #48

Methos -- Let me break down what I am trying to say. What the US "pays" for the manufacturing of those goods is far FAR less than what labour in the US would be paid. Next, neither the goods nor the money they make go into the economy of the producing country, so there is little to no positive economic effect because labour is being taken OUT at a rate far below what is being given back.

That is to say, more is taken out than put back in.

Message edited by author 2005-10-26 13:41:42.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

10/26/2005 01:41:55 PM · #49

Hey thatcloudthere,
Just in case you were beginning to feel nobody held the same feeling you did...a past entry from my blog...

Some thoughts on Katrina

The last main paragraph is where we may agree...