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11/25/2002 02:26:02 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by RiderGal:
Hi, I'm new to this site, I have voted on two challenges already, but this is the first one I entered. Personally I loved this challenge, but I was on my school newspaper in highschool, and continue in college. I had the chance to go to some highschool national competitions for journalism both National Student Press Association and Junior Education Association. I had the chance of sitting in while judges (professional photographers and teachers) talked about the faults and the positives of the pictures in the group. It was a terrific learning experience! I wanted to let people know a little bit about what they talked about.
+ good focus, + good colors, + lack of graininess, + catching the right moment, + expressions, +BEING ABLE TO TELL A STORY. This was a big one! + good angle for shooting
- Posed subject, or subject looking directly at the camera, - bad cropping, and unknown focus for picture, - lack of human aspect (at least for newspapers the best photos ALWAYS have a human in them), - background (paying attention when shooting making sure to shift if say a telephone pole is growing out of someones head)
Also during these competitions, the judges NEVER looked at the titles or captions before giving their suggestions to students. A photo should definitely stand on its own, and be able to tell a story on its own. I agree, that there are many magazines that have still lifes, and sunsets, but these photographers are often considered more to be art photographers then photojournalists. Our job was to go out and try and find the story, not make one up! The worst thing that a newspaper photographer can do is to fake a photo (BIG SIN!)
I hope that this information helps to clear up photojournalism and what to look for. I wanted to let some of the members who were saying that this challenge was failed know that there are quite a few very good photos on here that would definitely make the front page! I think the criticism on here is terrible, even though I agree that some people should not have entered, and just put anything in they could, I still think that overall people really tried to do this very hard challenge! Good luck to everyone, and I hope that the comments you are receiving and informative and helpful!
-Talya
18 yr. old student
:-)
Very well said Talya!!! I agree that the picture should tell a story and include all of the above points, but most of those points apply to the newspaper photograph. Journal and magazine covers, which are also photojournalism, often don't have people. They should have many of the same criteria as newspaper photos but looked at in a different way. Think of Industry Journals, Medical Journals even Architechtural Journals. I believe all of the photos in this challenge should make you want to know what the story is behind the picture.
Richard
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11/25/2002 03:40:54 PM · #27 |
I think I took the challenge too litterally. The photos never look the same after transfered into print for a newspaper. Arean't they always dark and grey looking? Anyway, It doesn't pay to take the challenge litterally, or to take it losely. It's ok though, cause I'm happy with my shot, and that's what matters.
~Heather~ |
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11/25/2002 03:41:50 PM · #28 |
I would like to know why everyone is telling what their opinions are now when they could have said something last week in the forums. Why didn't you stick in your 2 cents then? I would have liked to know how you felt. I think it would have helped alot of folks out.
I would just like to say "don't be so closed minded" when voting. |
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11/25/2002 03:59:25 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by TerryGee:
My score is the worst I've seen in a while, and the thing is that the photo has meaning to me.... My one comment so far is that it isn't good because there are no people in it. I think there are definitely times where a photo can stand on it's own without people in it.
I totally agree with you on the part about a photo still being good without having people in it. According to which definition of photojournalism the voters' are using, you could get a low score for having no people in it.
This is the first challenge I've entered and feel that my photo was on topic. Unfortunately, my score is pretty disappointing already, and everytime I check back it has dropped even lower. :(
I just got my digital camera at the end of june, and before that didn't really have much photography experience (except a beginners photography class in high school). I've become really interested in photography, and have tried to start taking more than simple "point and shoot" photos in the past month. After the voting is over and you see which photo is mine, hopefully some of you could help me out and give me some tips on composition, lighting, cropping, etc. |
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11/25/2002 04:44:14 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by BigSmiles:
I think your image should hold its own without a title... even if it is a cliche shot of a flower or whatever. Some shots in the challenge are not typical photojournalistic images but are nice nonetheless... I just dont think you should rely on the title to fit your image to the challenge... I tend to give higher marks to images that fit the challenge without the title and then the others get ranked according to technical merit artistic merit and are slightly penalized for relying on the title. This way it can still be a good image that doesn't necessarily fit the challenge but it doesn't get a 1 or 2 from me.
Big Smiles I agree to a point...It is great if you can catch a shot that needs no title, but there have been pictures in newspapers, and Life Magazine and National Geographic, that I liked, read the caption and then the "WOW!" came. Professional journalists use titles or captions to add impact to images.
Anyway just an opinion. :-)
Oh..I forgot to mention, my submission for the PJ challenge doesn't have a descriptive enough title, and now I'm sorry. The picture could be taken in many ways and a better title would have clarified. Especially in this challenge, we can't always do retakes, but must have caught a spontaneous moment in many cases.
* This message has been edited by the author on 11/25/2002 4:44:12 PM.
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11/25/2002 04:50:04 PM · #31 |
I think -- in an unbiased way, of course -- that the picture I entered this week was interesting in and off itself. However, it had no genuine meaning -- especially in a photojournalistic sense -- without the slight background I was able to impart with the title.
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11/25/2002 04:57:11 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I would like to know why everyone is telling what their opinions are now when they could have said something last week in the forums. Why didn't you stick in your 2 cents then? I would have liked to know how you felt. I think it would have helped alot of folks out.
I would just like to say "don't be so closed minded" when voting.
I agree with this statement 100%, Sonja. My definition of photojournalism OBVIOUSLY doesn't agree with a lot of other folks'. I had no idea that there would be so much confusion over what the challenge was about. Of course, I only have 1 comment for 60 or so votes (thanks to Autool for that one), so I have no idea what the voters don't like about my shot that keeps forcing my score down down down down. Maybe it's just a bad shot. Dunno. But from this forum, I am led to believe that I missed the POPULAR definition by a country mile, and so I suspect that's the problem with my score. It appears that the POPULAR definition requires a true candid of people in action (preferably a newsworthy event) at some critical moment, with emotional tension or release being caused in the viewer, the more the better. No setup allowed, and for goodness sake don't be so goofy as to leave out a human being :-) If you didn't stumble upon such a photo opportunity in your travels last week, you either shouldn't submit or you should just shut up about your low score.
I suspect I sound a little sour grapes here, and I apologize, but it's getting a little tight on the definition, if you pay attention to this thread. I don't think that's really a good idea, and I'm not so shy that I won't say anything. I haven't even started voting yet, and I'm already biased by all the goop I've read in here. I'm probably going to vote shots without people in them higher just to correct for all of what I feel is unbalance. Just kidding, but that's how this makes me feel!
Sure woulda been nice to have taken a poll last Wednesday as to the general public perception of photojournalism, then issue a corrective document (engineering change order) to allow the ignorant ones like me to have update our personal dictionary to match. :-)
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11/25/2002 05:04:09 PM · #33 |
Just out of interest -- having dissed what you described as the "POPULAR" definintion, you didn't express what YOUR version of photojournalism might or might not include, nards.
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11/25/2002 05:08:35 PM · #34 |
Hi again all! I'm sorry that I may have biased anyones oppinions with the people part. I was actually just trying to suggest what they look for at national competitons, and Goodtempo is absolutely right, I was speaking mostly about NEWSPAPER photography. I really was trying to help out with some suggestions, and I guess I should have posted before Sunday. Like I said I'm new at this... so I don't always know the correct etiquette for how to get things done. Very sorry. I wanted to reitterate the fact that I think some of the photos that are in the competition are fabulous! And I agree... power to those who submitted. Hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving, or to those in other countries, just a great week. Also to those who are Jewish, I hope you have a wonderful Hannukah.
-Talya |
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11/25/2002 05:17:11 PM · #35 |
here is what i found on it
1. Journalism in which a news story is presented primarily through photographs with supplementary written copy
or
2. journalism that presents a story primarily through the use of pictures
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11/25/2002 05:17:27 PM · #36 |
Interesting discussions - but I think a lot of folks should go look at recent papers from around the US and world, as well as the popular magazines. See this site for examples of papers. The variation is outstanding. You may be surprised what makes the front page.
I have a shot submitted - and have received a comment that said "this would never appear on a front page of a paper"
LOL, just 2 days after I submitted it, a similar photo, headline, and story appeared on the front page of our local newspaper (among the top 30 in the US).
Perhaps some photojournalism teachers need to get outside more to see how the world has changed.
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11/25/2002 05:17:28 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by RiderGal:
Hi again all! I'm sorry that I may have biased anyones oppinions with the people part. I was actually just trying to suggest what they look for at national competitons, and Goodtempo is absolutely right, I was speaking mostly about NEWSPAPER photography. I really was trying to help out with some suggestions, and I guess I should have posted before Sunday. Like I said I'm new at this... so I don't always know the correct etiquette for how to get things done. Very sorry. I wanted to reitterate the fact that I think some of the photos that are in the competition are fabulous! And I agree... power to those who submitted. Hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving, or to those in other countries, just a great week. Also to those who are Jewish, I hope you have a wonderful Hannukah.
-Talya
Talya, Your attitude is commendable!! I, for one, see how your input was added in good spirit, and has a lot of merit. No one here will hold anything against ya I'm sure, so don't worry. Welcome to the site. It's a great place to hang yer hat. Occasionally debates heat up a bit, but it passes and no one seems to get too bent out of shape. Overall, most have the same kind of attitude you have...helpful. :-)
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11/25/2002 05:23:26 PM · #38 |
I would just like to say that I think the magazine cover angle really muddied the waters in this challenge.
Think about covers of ALL magazines -- Martha Stewart, Better Homes & Gardens, This Old House, whatever. The absolute majority of magazine covers are setup shots. I agree that this isn't what I normally think of when I think of photojournalism, but it did say to take a picture worthy of the cover.
Just because it's not a picture of Martha bursting into flames or something doesn't mean it doesn't belong in this challenge. It may not be "photojournalism," per se...but it's perfectly legal for this one.
I'm going at it with a loose frame of mind. Goodness knows I didn't have time to sit next to the police scanner and dash off a moment's notice this week. Christianne Amanpour I'm not...
-- Rob 8) |
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11/25/2002 05:26:04 PM · #39 |
I can tell you what mine is. 1. For those who live in small towns or cities, I will vote for just a good picture that is some what related to news or a could be story that I would love to read. And since I don't know who lives in a big or small city I am going to have to assume that they all live in a small city. I am one that lives in a small city and our front page today is a picture of kids picking up trash off the highway. Last week it was a picture of a cotton tree. I think it all depends on what you enjoy reading in the paper that is going to catch your eye.
Originally posted by Jak:
Just out of interest -- having dissed what you described as the "POPULAR" definintion, you didn't express what YOUR version of photojournalism might or might not include, nards.
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11/25/2002 05:30:06 PM · #40 |
I couldn't agree more. When I first saw the magazine cover part, my first thought was take a picture of my baby and say it is the cover of a baby magazine, BUT I then read the FORUMS. And realized that it wouldn't go to well. I went a different route.
Originally posted by muckpond:
I would just like to say that I think the magazine cover angle really muddied the waters in this challenge.
Think about covers of ALL magazines -- Martha Stewart, Better Homes & Gardens, This Old House, whatever. The absolute majority of magazine covers are setup shots. I agree that this isn't what I normally think of when I think of photojournalism, but it did say to take a picture worthy of the cover.
Just because it's not a picture of Martha bursting into flames or something doesn't mean it doesn't belong in this challenge. It may not be "photojournalism," per se...but it's perfectly legal for this one.
I'm going at it with a loose frame of mind. Goodness knows I didn't have time to sit next to the police scanner and dash off a moment's notice this week. Christianne Amanpour I'm not...
-- Rob 8)
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11/25/2002 06:16:56 PM · #41 |
I'm compelled to say:
I thought the photojournalism shots were pretty dern good. I just finished voting (ta-da) and scored 70% a 7 or better. Congrats to all.
I didn't entry this week but I'm on the hunt for a B-L-U-E OX!!!!!!!!!
Have fun.
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11/25/2002 07:03:55 PM · #42 |
| Maybe I can get a pic of someone sad clutching a blues clues doll with a soft blue light coming from the window... oh and the person would have weepy blue eyes and blue hair. ;) |
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11/25/2002 07:32:45 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I can tell you what mine is. 1. For those who live in small towns or cities, I will vote for just a good picture that is some what related to news or a could be story that I would love to read. And since I don't know who lives in a big or small city I am going to have to assume that they all live in a small city. I am one that lives in a small city and our front page today is a picture of kids picking up trash off the highway. Last week it was a picture of a cotton tree. I think it all depends on what you enjoy reading in the paper that is going to catch your eye.
Originally posted by Jak:
[i]Just out of interest -- having dissed what you described as the "POPULAR" definintion, you didn't express what YOUR version of photojournalism might or might not include, nards.
[/i]
Have to agree with you Sonifo. The forums are making it sound like we all should have been on location in a war zone in order to have something "worthy" of the PJ challenge!! No such thing in the tiny little town that I live in! Our local newspaper's front page "photojournalistic" shot usually ranges anywhere from a "grand opening" to a 50th wedding anniversary !!
I wish people wouldn't take everything so seriously. Enjoy the challenge, and have fun.
linda
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11/25/2002 07:38:29 PM · #44 |
I actually work for a major newspaper/television "chain" and I agree that in our 25 newspapers we have a wide range of editorial photographic content.
BUT.....
That doesn't mean that all of the photos that appear in our newspapers..regardless of how newsworthy...are any good:-D
* This message has been edited by the author on 11/25/2002 7:35:48 PM. |
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11/25/2002 08:04:36 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by hokie:
I actually work for a major newspaper/television "chain" and I agree that in our 25 newspapers we have a wide range of editorial photographic content.
BUT.....
That doesn't mean that all of the photos that appear in our newspapers..regardless of how newsworthy...are any good:-D
LOL!! Can't argue that, hokie !! It's all too true!
Linda
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11/25/2002 09:18:08 PM · #46 |
hmm .. I don't see where you are getting this.
I myself wrote that my preference for photojournalism was 'chronicling of some actual occurence, as opposed to a set up shot -- even if it's just people standing around waiting for the bus'.
i don't see anyone else in here saying anything like it should be a war zone. . .
And I don't see anyone
Originally posted by lhall:
The forums are making it sound like we all should have been on location in a war zone in order to have something "worthy" of the PJ challenge!!
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11/25/2002 09:41:27 PM · #47 |
Mag, my apologies to you if I misunderstood your statement - I thought you were implying that the actual definition of PJ (as opposed to your preference) was that it not be set up. As usual, I probably sounded a little rougher than I meant to.
To Rider Gal - I appreciate you trying to clear up the confusion here, I wasn't meaning to jump on you, especially not with you being new. Thanks for not grabbing an attitude like I usually do :-) What you said was appropriate. It's the overall thread that frustrated me, especially since it didn't really do any good for pics like mine. You don't need to apologize to me; I just apologize if I stepped on YOUR toes. By the way, how in the heck does an 18 year old student get a D1H? Anybody with either enough cash or power of persuasion to accomplish that deserves my applause.
Jak - As far as MY definition of PJ, I didn't want to be any more hypocritical than necessary, because I was criticizing others for manipulating public perception to meet their own understanding, rather than letting everyone decide for himself. My error was in not researching the word enough. I took a shot based on what I thought photojournalism is. Mind you, I am not a bumped up hillbilly even though I live near some; I do have a college education and finished with about a 3.2 GPA in mechanical engineering, thus I assumed that I was reasonably close in my definition. :-) My frustration came from finding that I was apparently, at least in the minds of the majority, wrong. My definition includes documenting events that take place over a long period of time by including primarily the result of the events. My definition includes photos that would make it on the "LIVING" or "Community Life" section of the paper. My definition includes photos that would make the front page on a slow news day. I consider this all valid PJ, rather than just catching the President in the act of debarking from Air Force One, or the local National Guard getting ready to deploy. In my opinion, PJ may or may not include human beings, even if the story it tells is about human beings. In my opinion, a human being in my shot would have completely wiped out the entire point of the story I was telling. I hope I have not given away my shot by saying that, but I wanted to answer your question.
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
hmm .. I don't see where you are getting this.
I myself wrote that my preference for photojournalism was 'chronicling of some actual occurence, as opposed to a set up shot -- even if it's just people standing around waiting for the bus'.
i don't see anyone else in here saying anything like it should be a war zone. . .
And I don't see anyone
Originally posted by lhall:
[i] The forums are making it sound like we all should have been on location in a war zone in order to have something "worthy" of the PJ challenge!!
[/i]
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11/25/2002 09:44:41 PM · #48 |
Hey...I once lived in a literal ghost town. We were the only two people living in a dried up mining town, deep in the Adirondack Forest. So the biggest news in that town, if we had a newspaper, would have been "Drew and Grayce Drive 85 Miles For Food and Supplies." But in the words of the late Phil Oches "But I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody, outside of a small circle of friends" all of which lived hundreds of miles away.
My point??? Well.... just be open-minded. There are many different cultures, even within a single country. Judge the picture but not whether or not it's suitable for YOUR local newspaper. Give the photographer the benefit of the doubt. Beeeeeeeeeeee nice! :-)
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11/25/2002 10:33:40 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Jak - As far as MY definition of PJ, I didn't want to be any more hypocritical than necessary ...
Bernard, thank you for the clear and comprehensive response. I really appreciate it.
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11/25/2002 10:45:53 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Jak:
I think -- in an unbiased way, of course -- that the picture I entered this week was interesting in and off itself. However, it had no genuine [i]meaning -- especially in a photojournalistic sense -- without the slight background I was able to impart with the title.
[/i]
lol I can say exactly the same about my picture and I can add that the story it refers to actually made the front page last month. (but I think my picture is better. )
Of course the problem is every one here recognizes the images and already knows the backstory. My title indicates the reason the picture is in the paper. And my score sinks and sinks. :P
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