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10/08/2005 10:23:35 AM · #1 |
Yes... I am back with ANOTHER question! :)
I am debating right now between upgrading my Fotki album so that I can just have people view their proofs online, or getting them printed. For small shoots, such as portraits... it's not too bad to just get them printed. But when I am dealing with 300 - 400 proofs for a wedding... it's costing me $70 + to get them printed.
To me, I say go with the online viewing.... IF I happen to have someone who doesn't have internet access, I can always dump the files to my laptop and meet with them in person.
What do you guys think?
Lor
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10/08/2005 10:52:13 AM · #2 |
What size image are you giving them as a proof? If you're making the equivalent of a 35mm contact print, you should be able to get about 36 images on an 8x10 print; 400 images would take about 12 sheets, as low as $18 at Costco -- of course, that doesn't count any work to gang them up.
What about putting them as a slideshow on a CD? |
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10/08/2005 11:12:49 AM · #3 |
I am giving them 4x6 prints. My only worry with a CD, is that they are going to try to print out pics for themselves. And when I have that many wedding proofs... it's time consuming to go and make each one a smaller file to view, but that is horrible for printing.
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10/08/2005 11:15:29 AM · #4 |
If you batch resize all the pictures down to under 640x480, they'll be able to see the photos, without really being able to print at very good quality.
edit-too early to spelll
Message edited by author 2005-10-08 11:16:00.
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10/08/2005 11:21:41 AM · #5 |
I think the slideshow/gallery software programs will do the downsampling for you so the images are not printable at good quality.
I use software from Olympus and Adobe Acrobat to "print" a folder of images to regular letter-sized contact prints; there's choices you can make about the size/number of images/page, and the overall resolution.
There are several programs out there which are used to make galleries, some free and some inexpensive, which will do something useful for you -- I just don't remember the names. |
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10/08/2005 11:28:01 AM · #6 |
I don't know how much you are charging, but I do know that even though this is the digital age, most people would still like to hold prints. Imagine the bride and her mother sitting around a pile of prints deciding wich ones to order. There is something very organic about it, and it creates happiness and a family bond. This is something that you do not get from a computer screen. Make prints. People will be happier about. Raise your prices to cover the expenses. I think you would sell more prints that way. just my 2 pennies.
drake
Message edited by author 2005-10-08 11:28:43. |
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10/08/2005 11:44:02 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
I am giving them 4x6 prints. My only worry with a CD, is that they are going to try to print out pics for themselves. And when I have that many wedding proofs... it's time consuming to go and make each one a smaller file to view, but that is horrible for printing. |
I use PS CS2, and can make a .pdf slideshow, there is no way they can print the files, and so far, (3 weddings, plus many other portrait jobs), I have not had anyone ask for hard copies before they purchase. I also make all galleries available online at smugmug, and they, (and their family and friends), can purchase there. For those that don't have access to the internet, I go through the slideshow with them, choose the prints they want, then get them printed. So far, so good, no money out of my pocket.
Linda |
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10/08/2005 11:50:10 AM · #8 |
I think it's nicer to give your clients proof prints. So it costs you $80 + shipping. put your prices up $200 for your time/costs. It's that simple.
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10/08/2005 12:14:53 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
I think it's nicer to give your clients proof prints. So it costs you $80 + shipping. put your prices up $200 for your time/costs. It's that simple. |
Maybe offer two "packages" ... add $200 for hard-copy proofs, and let the customer make the choice. |
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10/08/2005 12:51:46 PM · #10 |
| You might be interested in this thread. |
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10/08/2005 01:05:59 PM · #11 |
I still like simple viewer I have used it lots on my website in all the galleries.
my site
I think a java viewer is good because when they are looking at one picture the next picture will load... so it is quick to look at pics (once they are all loaded) That viewer also makes the thumbnails and is very simple to set up.
That is what i use for proofs. |
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10/08/2005 01:16:15 PM · #12 |
FWIW, I use "real" proofs whenever possible. If I have a lot of proofs, I use a 10x10 spiral-bound proofbook offered by my lab (each page is a 10x10 print, with heavy-duty laminated front and back covers). If the number of proofs is small, I'll provide individual "preview prints" (except I use 4x5's, never 4x6's... 4x6's scream "amateur" since they are so commonplace... that's the same size print you get from a disposable camera! As a matter of fact, I don't even offer a 4x6 print size at all. I scored crop marks into my focusing screen shortly after I got my camera so that I can properly compose my images to fit within the 1.25:1 aspect ratio. That's also why you'll find that the majority of my challenge entries are this aspect ratio...)
Printed proofs have many advantages over digital stuff. The most obvious is the huge variations people see in color/contrast/brightness because of the lack of calibrated monitors. Proofs are much more "WYSIWYG", and can provide fine detail (important when choosing between several shots and the client needs to see if everybody's eyes are open in a group shot, for example. Something a low-res online image can't do.) Also, online galleries make it extremely easy for the client to copy all the pictures. They can download them with any number of "offline browser" tools that are becoming more popular and more advanced (such that they work with Flash galleries, JavaScript, etc.), so even if you remove them from your site, they still have your images available any time they want. CD-based slide shows are easy to copy, even if you require that they return the original CD. I've found that many people don't care if they have the photographer's name on them; they just want to be able to show off their "professional photo session" (or wedding, or whatever) to their family and friends, and if they can show them all the pictures for "free" (instead of just a couple they purchased as prints), they will.
There are other advantages, too. They can be taken to school, restaurants, the workplace, parties... anywhere... and they can be viewed without huddling around a computer. The proofs can also be offered to the customer as an add-on, increasing your sale. And if you don't provide a digital "slideshow" as proofs, you can then offer one as part of your premium package to entice them to upgrade.
Other advantages: I require a non-refundable deposit if they want to take their proofbook with them after reviewing it. And since I specialize in high school seniors, of course, everybody can't wait to show their friends (and likewise, the parents can't wait to take it to work. I've seen arguments about who gets to take it the next day... :-) This ensures a minimum order (which is in addition to the "creation" fee charged at the time of their session). I also require the proofs/proofbook to be returned within a certain amount of time, or per-day late fee is applied (of which I already have a pre-paid buffer if needed, thanks to the deposit). This gives clients incentive to actually place their order instead of procrastinating. Offering online proofs would limit much of this approach.
I'm not saying this model will work for every photographer, but it is just some things to think about...
Message edited by author 2005-10-08 13:45:07. |
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10/08/2005 01:29:57 PM · #13 |
hmm yeah, a lot of good points here.
what would you do for a wedding that was shot as a reportage series with 300 proofs... quite a few pics to have sitting around.. I guess they could get all the proofs in the end.
How do you scribe the lines into your focusing screen?
The one advantage to having online gallery tho, is they have the proofs online where they can send them to all their family and friends on a click on a button (advertising for you, the photographer) |
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10/08/2005 01:51:34 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by leaf:
what would you do for a wedding that was shot as a reportage series with 300 proofs... |
I would definitely use a proofbook, maybe two, depending on how many photos you proof per page, since my lab is limited to forty 10x10 prints per proofbook. You could do one for the ceremony and one for the reception.
Originally posted by leaf:
How do you scribe the lines into your focusing screen? |
The focusing screen in the 1-series cameras are trivial to remove because they are meant to be interchangeable. I popped mine out, did the calculations, and then carefully used an X-acto blade to score the screen (which is plastic) in the right places. I now have two thin vertical lines visible in my viewfinder that perfectly identify the 1.25:1 picture area.
I do agree that there are some advantages to online galleries / digital proofs -- I've just personally decided that "real" proofs are my preference at this point.
Message edited by author 2005-10-08 13:53:15. |
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10/08/2005 01:53:35 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by leaf:
The one advantage to having online gallery tho, is they have the proofs online where they can send them to all their family and friends on a click on a button (advertising for you, the photographer) |
That is one thing I was thinking about. Plus, it may make more people want to order prints. I know I sent the link with a few pictures of my cousins wedding I shot last weekend to my aunt. She showed them all over her office and got rave reveiews on them. I am hoping that someone may want to schedule a portrait sitting or wedding with me! :)
Also, EddyG said about the online files being copied. With Fotki, they cannot get the original file... I am the only one that can do that. They would just get the little 640x480 size file.
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10/08/2005 02:00:50 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Plus, it may make more people want to order prints. |
Actually, I've found the opposite to be true. If they can view the image anytime they want on their computer (because they've downloaded it, set it as "wallpaper", whatever), they have less incentive to purchase the print, because they already have a copy of it. At least with printed proofs, they have to go through the boring, repetitive task of actually scanning them. And the quality of a scanned image is never as good (dust, color depth, etc.), especially if you don't use glossy paper.
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Also, EddyG said about the online files being copied. With Fotki, they cannot get the original file... I am the only one that can do that. They would just get the little 640x480 size file. |
Yes, but you'll find that many people are quite happy to have a digital collection of photos that size. And you might be very surprised at the quite-usable (especially from a typical consumer standpoint) 4x6 print that those 640x480 pixel JPEGs produce. That provides over 100 ppi of resolution at that size, and with today's advanced upsampling algorithms, the results are not awful.
So now you have the potential for people to be viewing your work as home-made 4x6 prints, created from web-sized images, instead of professional, high-quality prints. Is that really how you want your photographic work to be seen by others?
Again, just something to think about...
Message edited by author 2005-10-08 14:05:27. |
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10/08/2005 02:45:53 PM · #17 |
Why are we all debating this? Why don't you go ask your customer what they want to do, and skip all this?
Set up the online gallery, and charge them if they want prints and/or a slideshow CD. Charge them for production costs if they want specific music and effects on the CD. Make it an al a carte thing and present it as part of your services. You making prints is a service that they are paying for, as is the web page, and they CD. They should choose what level of service they want.
One caveat to that: If The Bride thought she was going to get prints already, give them to her. Do not tick off the bride. There's a reason they have that saying "hell hath no fury...". If you set up a certain set of presumptions, and are just balking now because you forgot to factor in the cost of prints, take this as a lesson and move on. Making this customer happy will create more business for you.
A ticked off customer will tell about 15-20 people how pissed off they are. In general happy enough customers will maybe tell 1-5 people. Ecxtatic people will maybe tell 5-10. On average, you will spend 10 to 15 times the cost of making a customer happy, just to recover from the damage that an unhappy customer will do to your business.
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10/08/2005 06:46:23 PM · #18 |
| You could use something like "Watermark factory" or "batch it!" to write "Proof" all over the pictures on the CD. |
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10/08/2005 08:10:39 PM · #19 |
i am not quite sure how you all deal with proofs.
Do you let the customers keep the proofs.
I have had relatives who got proofs of school photos, scanned them into the computer, digitially erased the proof stamp on the photo... and printed them out and passed them around....
i don't think any way is 'safe' |
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10/09/2005 05:33:22 AM · #20 |
I think in any case, if the customer gets to keep the proofs, online album, cd, or prints... there will be less insentive to get prints of all the things they want.. cause they have the proofs.
on the other hand, there may be less incentive if they don't keep the proofs because they won't be reminded about the picture they could of gotten blown up.. they will never see it, and never think about it. If they have the proof sitting around, they might think about it once in a while and order a print at some time. |
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