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 10/06/2005 07:23:51 PM · #26
MPRO... Great Point and Great Topic.

It appears that the majority of DP submitters are BOUTIQUE coffee shop goers: Starbucks, espresso, carmel, six inches of whipped cream, two thousand dollar machines, all glass, modern architecture in obvious yuppy spots, everything bold and beautiful about coffee. These do not define coffee shop for me.

I wanted the photo that made me smell coffee, trick my mind into being in another country, think of sand on the floor, the job the person drinking the job may have done, the work involved in keeping it open, the storage rooms, the sticky floor, the heaped garbage cans, the patrons of years, the discussion over coffee, the silly pins and handkerchiefs many waitresses wear......more things that would give me the spirit of the 'place.'

The topic did generate discussion and perhaps DP movers and shakers can consider many topics from this point forward...color and coffee, country and coffee, people and coffee, spirit and coffee, work and coffee, dunking and coffee......the concepts are endless. Perhaps we will find a coffee topic for another challenge soon.

I found photos that met my own criteria of sight, sound, smell, taste, feeling......just not enough of them.
Thank you for generating the discussion MPRO and all!

PS I am still in shock that there were no truck stops, Jolly Pirates, Dunkin Donuts or Krispi Kremes.
 10/06/2005 07:33:36 PM · #27
Originally posted by Jutilda:
ibkc - just to be the Devil's advocate- I don't think Coffee SHOP and Coffee HOUSE are the same thing. I think of beatniks with brown cigarettes and berets listening to music ahead of its time while snapping their fingers and drinking espresso in a coffee HOUSE, whereas I think of a cardboard crust lemon meringue pie with a white ceramic mug of strong from sitting on the burner too long coffee in a coffee shop. That's just me.

But I will agree that that was an extremely mediocre set of images overall. I gave one ten which I really loved. Most everything else was ho hum.


Where have all the Beatniks gone.......or is it............how many roads must.........ah forget it..........
 10/06/2005 07:36:28 PM · #28
If I saw anything that I thought had any possibility of being found in a coffee shot I figured it met the challenge.

On comments - I prefer to comment on the 4s ,5s, and 6s mostly, and will usually mention what I personally think would make it a better image. I have even given suggestions for improvement and given the image an 8. I figure that for certain anything less then an 11 can be improved.
 10/06/2005 07:44:00 PM · #29
Originally posted by fixedintime:
If I saw anything that I thought had any possibility of being found in a coffee shot I figured it met the challenge.

On comments - I prefer to comment on the 4s ,5s, and 6s mostly, and will usually mention what I personally think would make it a better image. I have even given suggestions for improvement and given the image an 8. I figure that for certain anything less then an 11 can be improved.


I wonder if the photo you gave an 8 scored better than your entry and if it did does not your comment seem a little presumptuous?
 10/06/2005 07:54:08 PM · #30
Originally posted by MPRPRO:
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I guess when I see a challenge the first thing that comes to mind I get rid of. I start to think of something not directly related to coffee that I could find in a coffee shop. Am I wrong for doing that? I don't think so.


I entered something that conveyed an Idea more than a thing. The problem with that is that most of the people who entered a more direct idea of the challenge are voting on your stuff. So, if you enter something a little off kilter, like I did, be prepared to accept that some/most may not really get it.
10/06/2005 07:58:32 PM · #31

Originally posted by azoychka:
I wonder if the photo you gave an 8 scored better than your entry and if it did does not your comment seem a little presumptuous?


Oh, for goodness sakes! Based on forum threads, I think that most people truly appreciate getting comments - I know I do. If someone thinks a comment is presumptious they are free to ignore it; I know I'm always grateful even if I don't always agree.

And [getting out stick for dead horse] I don't believe that a person has to be a perfect photographer themselves to be able to see what could be improved in someone else's photograph. Many art, drama and even photograph critics may have no talent in the field they are critiquing, but that doesn't mean that they don't have the right and even the talent to critique.

Thank you, fixedintime, for taking the time to comment! (Particularly on the middle range, which are often lacking comments.) You obviously put thought & time into your comments, and I'm sure that most appreciate it.

[edited for ease of reading]

Message edited by author 2005-10-06 20:00:56.
 10/06/2005 08:11:41 PM · #32
Originally posted by azoychka:
Originally posted by fixedintime:
If I saw anything that I thought had any possibility of being found in a coffee shot I figured it met the challenge.

On comments - I prefer to comment on the 4s ,5s, and 6s mostly, and will usually mention what I personally think would make it a better image. I have even given suggestions for improvement and given the image an 8. I figure that for certain anything less then an 11 can be improved.


I wonder if the photo you gave an 8 scored better than your entry and if it did does not your comment seem a little presumptuous?


I'm not sure I understand the question. But let me try to elaborate.

First, I don't currently have any entries in the voting.

Second, Every 7, 8, 9 and 10 I have given so far I consider better than my images - I don't think I have put one in yet that I would have given an 8 to if I could.

Third, I think there is a difference between skill at taking a photo and having an opinion of the value of a photo. When I vote and when I comment I am doing nothing more than giving my opinion. I know more than some and less than others about photography - that will always be the case. I don't see anything "presumptuous" about expressing an opinion on how an image can be improved - and that I see as the main purpose of the comment - not to just say you have a great image or your image is boring. In giving a comment I am a consumer much as someone who buys an image and expresses his opinion by spending his money. When I submit an image I am a photographer - the seller of an image. While the two roles can influence each other they are none the less very different roles.
 10/06/2005 08:31:15 PM · #33
Tnx Bebe for the comment/support. I can't believe how we both said some of the same things.

I do want my comments to be meaningful - I don't comment enough - dial up makes it hard to vote and comment, so when I do I want them to be useful to anyone who reads them. Mid range is where I see the most need for comments. If I get a 3, or 4 average I pretty much know there are problems and if I ever get a 7 I will know I have a great image.
 10/06/2005 08:38:10 PM · #34
I guess it begs the question...do we learn from these comments and if so, how have you demonstrated your learning (from a particular comment)?
 10/06/2005 08:50:31 PM · #35
I can only respond to what I have learned from the comments I have gotten. Others will have to speak for what they have learned from the comments I have given. But just a few quick examples of what I have gotten from some of the very useful comments I have received.

A few weeks back someone noticed that I was not using the full 150K size limit. About the same time someone caught the same problem at my photoblog. Between the two I learned more about watching out for compression issues in the jpeg files. In my last entry someone mentioned that the blue in the girls pants distracted from the image. I had not caught that, next time I will be more watchful for that kind of thing. On another image someone mentioned that it might look better in black and white - I tried it and agreed. So now I am more keen in asking myself if that might make another image better.
 10/06/2005 08:54:18 PM · #36
How many comments % wise would you say you have learned something from?
 10/06/2005 09:22:07 PM · #37
I recently joined the DPC and I'm just starting at photography, I have a lot to learn and maybe because english is not my first language I'm finding myself sometimes with trouble to think outside the box, but that is for another discussion on how to interpret the challenges. My picture was one of the "coffee beans" altough I have to say I was surprise of how many of them were there. I thought I would see more variety of concepts/subjects. What I really wanted was to receive the comments to get better. So please, keep writing the comments they really make a difference and help someone like me, a beginner (4 and 5 that's me!!!!!), to look at my work in a different way!
 10/06/2005 09:45:10 PM · #38
I would put what I learned from in two categories.

First are those that help me with my photography - put that at about 60-70%,

Second are those that tell me something about the voters, where they are coming from and what the culture is here at dpc - put that at about 20%.

Then those are those who just say they liked or did not like the image without giving any substance - that runs around 10-20%. While I feel good when someone says "nice picture" there is always some who will feel that way about any image. Just look at the distribution of scores. More useful is when they tell me why they think it is nice.
 10/06/2005 09:50:09 PM · #39
The challenge says: "Take a photo that represents something you would find in a coffee shop. Let your imagination run wild." The challenge doesn't say, "take photo's of things in a coffee shop." It says "represents something you would find in a coffee shop." So... I think coffee grounds are something you would find in a coffee shop, and forming the coffee grounds into peaks and placing them in front of a sunset is using a wild imagination. Where's the problem?

I do agree, however, that baseballs and forests don't really represent coffee anything.
 10/06/2005 09:56:45 PM · #40
Have you ever been to a coffee shop in Amsterdam? You may not find coffee at all.
 10/06/2005 10:02:19 PM · #41
Originally posted by wavelength:

So, if you enter something a little off kilter, like I did, be prepared to accept that some/most may not really get it.


I did not enter this challenge just voting on it.
10/06/2005 10:05:06 PM · #42
the work IF was in there...
 10/06/2005 10:30:57 PM · #43
Originally posted by azoychka:
How many comments % wise would you say you have learned something from?


I'd say 99%. Sometimes it is (as fixedintime said), simply the reason that voters are looking at a picture in a certain way is helpful. If a couple people say "doesn't meet challenge", then I feel fairly certain that a low score is due in part to challenge relevance, and that's helpful.

If the majority of the viewers say "lack of focus" or "boring" then I feel like I need to work on those areas, and that's helpful. If someone suggests a different crop or a change to black and white, then I try to see it from their point of view, and whether or not I agree, the process is helpful.

The "Great!" comments are balm to my soul. Some may dismiss those, but I think it's wonderful when I create something that brings someone else enjoyment or approval. Those are helpful.

I have a hard time thinking of when a comment could be unhelpful, to me at least. Maybe if it was overly rude or didn't refer to my image, that would be unhelpful. Not a very common occurence, I would imagine.

Why are you, azoychka, implying (in your previous post) that comments from those less "talented" than you are unhelpful? Do you resent others' input? If so, why the heck would you bother with a site that is all about that? (I'm not trying to be rude, I really want to know)
 10/09/2005 05:59:27 AM · #44
Getting back to the topic of Coffee Shop images not meeting the challenge...I am about to stop voting for this challenge because of this! Don´t know where an animal in a tree or an item in sports fits the challenge or is it just a competition for the brown ribbon? Arghh, irritating, think I´ll go and have a cup of coffee to settle my nerves..
 10/09/2005 07:37:57 AM · #45
Originally posted by MPRPRO:
Originally posted by tpoc:

so if what you see is ordinary and uninspired, help me out ('cuz at this point you don't know which one is mine)...tell me why, and tell me what could make it better! : )


Hello Jeannel,

First thank you for understanding where I am coming from. I will not comment directly on any one shot, I will comment on one of mine I didn't enter as you can see from what I wrote about it.

This was an impromptu shot and it captures many interesting things about a coffee shop. I will not pat myself on the back but I do love it. Friendship, old age, food comfort warmth, you add the rest. That is what I was looking for.

I guess when I see a challenge the first thing that comes to mind I get rid of. I start to think of something not directly related to coffee that I could find in a coffee shop. Am I wrong for doing that? I don't think so.

Thanks again Jeannel


Speaking of comments, after I posted this many of you went and looked at my picture. I recieved many comments about how it was tilted a bit and how it could be fixed. So I fixed it and now this is the finished product, Thank you all for your support and help.

Mike
 10/09/2005 08:36:19 AM · #46

was the kind of photo i was hoping for and i was excited to see the coffeehouse challenge entries. Talk about a let down.
Coffe shops/ houses/ dinners/ whatever are a mecca a MECCA i say for people watching? I looked though the thumbs at all the beans an a serious lack of shots that eevesdrop on the next booth over that i said meh and closed the window. A coffee house is a place to meet before it is a place to drink coffee - you move to a town without one and you learn that very quickly.
 10/09/2005 09:03:45 AM · #47
Coffee shop entry?
Anyway, I'm not here to knock anyone's entry. While I personally would like to see pictures of a a coffee house/shop, they/you can submit any photo you want. If you feel someone's entry doesn't meet the criteria of the challenge, you can vote accordingly. Just my .01 worth.
P.S. Here are thedefinitions from dictionary. com
cof·fee·house also coffee house ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kôf-hous, kf-)
n.
A restaurant where coffee and other refreshments are served, especially one where people gather for conversation, games, or musical entertainment.
coffee shop
n.
A small restaurant in which coffee and light meals are served.

Message edited by mk - removed link to current entry.
 10/09/2005 10:45:42 AM · #48
Sorry.
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