Before starting each challenge........

09/22/2005 06:53:22 PM · #1

Use A Dictionary.

The â��Perspective IIâ�� and â��Bubblesâ�� controversies both stem from the same problem. Definition of the words used in the theme. Anger, disappointment and other not so nice problems arise.

Iâ��m sure some are thinking right now â��anal retentiveâ��, â��boringâ��, â��whatâ��s the matter with being creativeâ��?

When someone is cavalier and loose with the definitions of words or use words invented or wrong for the situation, they should not be surprised when the majority of people donâ��t know what the heck they mean.

A good example is the Snoop Dog and Lee Iacocca Chrysler Ad. Snoop is interested in being cool, Lee is interested in communicating. The ad agency doesnâ��t really want people to understand Snoop. They are making a joke of the communication differences between the two. They only care that you understand what Lee is saying.

Real communication is where one person can duplicate exactly what the other person is expressing. If people talking are using different definitions or they misuse words they are not really communicating. They are unknowingly confusing each other.

When people are using common words with agreed upon definitions, real communication can be achieved. That is why I was stressing more understanding of definitions.

Who knows? You might even resolve confusions that have been in your head for years. Many people often never look up words, they just take other peoples opinions on what the definition is.

For those interested here is a Snoop Dog translation: //www.slangcity.com/ask_ac.htm

Use A Dictionary.

Rod

e301

09/22/2005 07:43:34 PM · #2

I hate to say it, and I'm not tkaing the pi**, but that's a very narrow definition of communication.

As an example, here are two questions:

1. Is this a communicative photograph?

2. What does it communicate?

Ed

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

09/22/2005 07:56:48 PM · #3

1. Yes

2. Your camera looks super cool!!!

Message edited by author 2005-09-22 19:57:44.

Riponlady

Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ35

09/22/2005 08:12:31 PM · #4

Originally posted by fulgent:

You shot yourself in the foot a bit here! Communication and the use of dictionaries is fine IF you understand the basic culture. However since many people on this site will not have seen or heard of the advert you use as an example of communication, we have no idea what you are talking about!!!

It is vital that people realise that English and the USA are not the only first language and/or culture of participants and this must be taken into account.

A challenge entitled "baseball" would be hopeless for most as would "cricket". Any challenge has to be possible throughout the world and definitions of challenges must be in plain english to help those who need it. I would hate to try to define some French words even using a dictionary although my French is adequate.

P

PS just checked your profile and realised how many of your pics I have admired. They are great!
Adding you to my fav list!!!

Message edited by author 2005-09-22 20:14:35.

09/22/2005 08:21:56 PM · #5

please realise that not everyone is an english as a first language participant and some people don't have world dictionaries. For some people with difficulites with a second or third language, it is a lot easier to ask someone they know (ie the dpc community) than try to delve into a forgein language textbook.

Also, most words have several definations (as Bear will always happily point out ~cheers Bear~) that not all dictionaries contain.

09/22/2005 08:25:57 PM · #6

Originally posted by Riponlady:

Great observations and worth repeating.

Your right about me forgetting about the members that don't get that TV commercial. Or should I say Telly.

To summarize, the commercial makes fun of the mis-communication because of extreme slang vs. common language.

09/22/2005 10:48:55 PM · #7

Originally posted by mesmeraj:

Here in the USA you can get a English/Foreign language dictionary for the cost of only one fancy resturant dinner.

Better to spend that much $ to feed the mind than to get minimal lasting benefits from one meal.

Let's be realistic about language here. As English is the standard language of international business then it pays to have that kind of dictionary that will translate English to your native language in your book collection.

Originally posted by mesmeraj:

Also, most words have several definitions (as Bear will always happily point out ~cheers Bear~) that not all dictionaries contain.

You are right about multiple definitions and I will address that in a little while.

Regards for now,
Rod

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

09/23/2005 01:02:10 AM · #8

Part II - Use A Dictionary.

Since this is an educational site and if you agree that you want people to understand your art better then you need to improve your communications skills. So consider this:

Make friends with a good quality dictionary. Good dictionaries list the most common definition first and the least common use will be last. When you use definition #11 the audience will most likely not get the intention of your communication.

Before planning or starting your challenge project pick up a dictionary and go over all the definitions. Make sure your earlier idea of the definition is actually included in the list of meanings.

After you understand each definition then select the one that most fits the intent of the challenge.

If there's no voting on the images who cares what definition is used? But many people will vote in the challenge. So youâ��re better off knowing what the most common definition is.

The purpose of giving a theme is to narrow the photographic options. So being accurate in the theme definition is important to maintain the purpose. Otherwise if too loose is ok then all should be Free Study challenges and forget themes.

Lock down the definition you want to use in your image. Save your creativity for your photo. Avoid picking definitions out of the air which turn out to be wrong or very rarely used? Use the most commonly recognized definition so that a larger number of voters get the message. It's basic.

Let's face it a lot of new people to photography come hear without a lot of knowledge and they get an equal vote as a pro photographer with many years experience.

The least we can do is to encourage everyone to pull a dictionary a few times a week and review the words for each challenge.

If nothing else if you decide to use a less common definition you know you may need to boost the â��Wowâ�� factor or some other element to make up the difference. The times I took the rarely used definition and my project bombed.

If you want to be more esoteric than anyone else, then substitute any word or definition for the theme you want. But you run the risk of being the only one that thinks your image is great.

Rod

Message edited by author 2005-09-23 01:02:36.

sher

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

09/23/2005 02:34:53 AM · #9

i always prefer being esoteric. i've never cared to follow the pack.

BlackDot

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/23/2005 02:45:21 AM · #10

I got no Idea what esoteric means, but lately I have shied away from the pack as well.
4.7 on destinations is my reward :0)

wsteyn

Nikon D7000

09/23/2005 03:12:40 AM · #11

Alway thought this was a site on photography, not lexicography! LOL.
A big word for me - my wife is a lexicographer!
If you don't know what it means, look it up in a dictionary! HaHa!
Oops - have not had my coffee yet...

zarniwoop

Nikon D50

Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2.0D

09/23/2005 05:45:32 AM · #12

Words mean what people use them to mean.

Dictionaries DO NOT define words: they record the most likely meanings of the words as they are used in the present, and were used in the past.

That's not to say that you can suddenly define the word "Bubble" to mean alarm clock because it suits your photo.

But, a photo of a family in a car surrounded by a crowd walking beside them, might fit as the family are in their bubble.

Message edited by author 2005-09-23 05:46:37.

Riponlady

Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ35

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

09/23/2005 06:10:57 AM · #13

I do agree with you but I think fulgent is saying that this may not be understood by some (particularly non native speaking English voters) because it is subtle.

If you want to be sure of not bombing or voters not getting your message, then take first very easy straightforward definition of challenge title.

Personally I am prepared to take that chance (mine all bomb anyway!!!) because I enjoy playing with words but to stop all the threads asking "What does the title mean?" it is suggested you look at the definition in a dictionary.

P

09/23/2005 12:03:39 PM · #14

Originally posted by sher9204:

i always prefer being esoteric. i've never cared to follow the pack.

I like esoteric too Sher. Especially when your trying to convey mystery.

But for lesson example purposes only, all your ribbon winners were not esoteric. Bridge challenge, I see bridge. At Work challenge, hands at work. Etc..

Samsung Galaxy S22, S22+, S22 Ultra

09/23/2005 12:15:27 PM · #15

Originally posted by fulgent:

Yes, in the USA, but people with english as a 2nd 3rd 4th language are not in the USA.

English is not the standard global language. It might be to you, an american english speaker, but it is not globally. More than twice as many people in the word speak mandarin (1st language)than english, and english and spanish are on equal footing throughtout the word. You will be much easier understood thoughtout asian if you have a grasp of mandarin, not english, and easier understtod throughout europe and south america speaking in spanish than english. Japanese is a high player in the business world.

I have had the pleasure of living on 4 different contients in my short lifetime & have experienced first hand language barriers - and again i reiterate, that language in a text is not the same as it is spoken, and it is often easier to ask your peers for assitance than try to understand (and probably misinterupt) a text in another language.

If you have ever been in a forgein land where no one speaks english, you learn thier language fast from your peers - far faster than you ever do in a classroom learning out of a text book.

Tiberius

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

09/23/2005 12:17:48 PM · #16

It's usefull to use a dictionary. English is not my mother tongue and I do have problems understanding some challenges. I even screwed one as I did not know what the hack was Waldo and I didn't get it even after I checked the dictionary. Finally I understood that I had to take a pic of a "person in your otherwise person-less photo." Poor Chinese kids! I treated them as person-less subjects of my photo.

My major is Chinese, I think I have a pretty good command on English and Romanian is my mother tongue.
Dictionaries are always a joy for me!

saracat

Pentax K10D

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

09/23/2005 12:19:58 PM · #17

Which brings home the point that it's just as important to read the challenge title and description as a whole as it is to accurately define the words therein.
But then again, maybe it's just me.
;P

colyla

Canon EOS-50D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM II

09/23/2005 12:20:00 PM · #18

Originally posted by e301:

I hate to say it, and I'm not tkaing the pi**, but that's a very narrow definition of communication.

As an example, here are two questions:

1. Is this a communicative photograph?

2. What does it communicate?

Ed

That there really IS a Santa Claus?
:)

saracat

Pentax K10D

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

09/23/2005 12:20:40 PM · #19

Originally posted by colyla:

Originally posted by e301:
I hate to say it, and I'm not tkaing the pi**, but that's a very narrow definition of communication.

As an example, here are two questions:

1. Is this a communicative photograph?

2. What does it communicate?

Ed

That there really IS a Santa Claus?
:)

And he's watching you?

Samsung Galaxy S22, S22+, S22 Ultra

09/23/2005 12:26:00 PM · #20

Originally posted by saracat:

absolutely! How many people got screwed because they read "minimalism" the title, but not the description that followed?

Also, i am not knocking the whole use a dictionary thing - i do it when i cant think of ideas. Dictionary.com is my buddy. But i have seen english-as-a-second-languagers blown off by the "use a dictionary" statement on this forum in the past week, even after they have done the research themselves, and like Tiberius's example it still didnt mesh with them. These forums exist so we help can help each other - you shouldnt get your knickers in a knot because someone doesnt have as broad an understanding of a subject as you yourself do.

Tiberius

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

09/23/2005 01:09:53 PM · #21

English native speakers should be glad they can find dictionaries for almost any other languages. I recall my first Chinese language manual was in French and I had to buy a Romanian/French dictionary to be able to use it. Even now the Chinese/English dictionaries are my first choice tools. The Romanian/Chinese dictionary was available only in 1993 and was already out of date.
Pretty twisted!

eschelar

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

09/23/2005 01:14:39 PM · #22

I totally agree with Mesmeraj. When you learn another language, you learn another way of thinking. When you learn another language while immersed in that culture, you learn something different: You learn another way of feeling.

As someone who is also learning Chinese - the Chinese way, I have noticed this amongst language learners. There are people who learn with their mind and there are others who learn with their hearts.

Believe me, it makes all the difference in the world.

What results is that there is a certain understanding towards others in similar situations.

To someone who is not a native speaker of a language, dictionaries become unwieldy and intimidating. There is always something missing in the dictionary definition that sometimes can derail the meaning of an entire sentence or thought (see Tiberius's waldo issue). This is just a part of what makes life difficult for the international community here.

Forums are the place to offer support for misunderstandings of challenge definitions.

Ultimately however, we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the purpose of this challenge is to encourage people to get out there and take pictures. This site gives people a direction and sometimes an inspiration and maybe even a little bit of a whipping in the deadline department to stimulate creativity and imagination.

As humans, we tend to do our best work when we stand within well defined limits. Just because it is well-defined doesn't mean we understand it though, look at the world of Physics. The laws are well defined, but our understanding has barely scratched the surface. The most amazing achievements of man are defined by how close they come to the boundaries set by physics.

If the purpose of this website is to get people to take more pictures, and someone who misunderstands a challenge takes a picture, the site has accomplished its goal. Voting will show how well that picture impressed people with its technical characteristics, its emotive qualities and its appropriateness. Ribbons are awarded to give something to shoot for.

At the end of the day though, it's all about the picture. Once the challenge is over, the picture's relevance to that challenge instantly becomes vastly less important and the picture is then able to stand more on it's own as a creative work.

It's a fine end result. It is worth a little lack of direction in the execution.

Tiberius

Samsung Galaxy S22, S22+, S22 Ultra

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

09/23/2005 01:22:06 PM · #23

Originally posted by eschelar:

Well said. I can justify!

I know KUNGFU, and many other Chinese Words ;-)
I can even write them!

09/23/2005 01:27:06 PM · #24

Originally posted by mesmeraj:

English is not the standard global language.

language in a text is not the same as it is spoken, and it is often easier to ask your peers for assitance than try to understand (and probably misinterupt) a text in another language.

I didn't say "standard global language". There is no standard global language.

What I said was "standard language of international business" which is quite different. A business promoting to the whole world will use English, then may also include some other key languages such as French, Spanish, German, Japanese etc.

I think Icelandic is the second language of this site if I not mistaken;^)

That's trivial anyway. My point was that most likely anyone new to this site will be using a lot of English. So get a good dictionary that will help learn English.

Your point about spoken language is well taken, but we use written text on this site, not verbal language.