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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Layers in Basic, need SC feedback pls.
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 09/22/2005 08:39:36 AM · #1
SC:

We're starting up the "Photoshop Basics" group now, and I need an answer to a question that has been plaguing me:

In my normal workflow, I create duplicate layers from background and apply such effects as blur and sharpening to them. I can then fade the layers in and out to fine-tune them.

It is also possible (and legal in basic) to sharpen or blur directly on the base layer and then use "edit/fade" to fade the sharpening effect; exactly the same thing.

However, the two are interrelated; sometimes when you apply the second you want to change the first.

Now, I can do all this in a manner that's strictly, unquestionably basic-legal by doing a layered image until its to my satisfaction. I can then note the amounts of USM and blur I have applied, open a new copy of the original, and apply these amounts directly to the base layer. I can then DRAG from the complex copy any adjustment layers I have created and drop them on the new version to duplicate them. OR I could just merge the sharpen and blur layers into the background on the complex copy and have exactly the same thing.

So there you have it; for adjustment purposes it's much simpler to to do these things on duplicate layers and then merge them down when done, and the end result is indistinguishable from an image where they had been done on the base layer to begin with. But according to the basic editing rules, layers that contain pixels are not allowed.

So the question is, "not allowed in the workflow at all, or not allowed in the finished image?" When you consider that a JPG image can't even HAVE layers of any kind, and that if the effect itself is otherwise legal (gaussian blur and sharpen for example), then SC has no way of knowing if layers may have been used at some point in the contruction of the image, correct? So does any of this matter?

I need to decide whether to teach people to do a test versiuon, then copy their settings and reapply them to a non-layered original to stay legal, or whether they can just flatten the test version when it looks right.

Thanks, Robt.


09/22/2005 08:49:08 AM · #2
As an ex-SC, my opinion would be that you're better off teaching NOT to make layer copies that contain pixels. Adjustment layers are fine (as long as they are applied in Normal mode), layers with pixels are not. Keeps things nice and straight-forward, with an easily-delineated line: does the layer contain pixels? Can't do it under Basic. Simple to explain, with no gray area.

Similarly, while you can use the "Edit > Fade" option in Photoshop to reduce the "strength" of a previously applied filter, you cannot change the mode from "Normal" during the Fade operation and still be in compliance with the Basic Editing rules.

The way I see it, people are always trying to find "loopholes" in the Basic Editing rules to allow them to do all sorts of complicated post-processing. Complex post-processing is not the intent of Basic Editing challenges! Such challenges are meant to emphasize getting things "right" in the camera, concentrating on such things as exposure and composition. Basic Editing is meant to allow little tweaks to your image. It isn't an appropriate set of rules for a full-blown professional digital workflow. Yes, you can certainly jack your image to something totally unrecognizable using the tools available under Basic, but that's not the intent (and such tweaking certainly doesn't score well here on DPC).

Just my 2¢

Message edited by author 2005-09-22 09:13:12.
 09/22/2005 08:53:48 AM · #3
Not to siderail a thread but I just went to your profile Eddy and love your signature. Is it possible for me to use that also?
 09/22/2005 08:54:57 AM · #4
As Eddy said, you cannot use layers with pixel data in Basic. Copying your image to a layer for any reason would be grounds for DQ (even if the result is the same as using legal tools on the base layer). You can use Adjustment Layers in Normal blending mode only, and you can use Fade to fine-tune the strength of applied edits, but that's it.

Message edited by author 2005-09-22 09:24:55.
 09/22/2005 08:55:03 AM · #5
rex: Absolutely. :) I can use all the help I can get. I tried to educate people about proper netiquette, but most simply ignore it and think they are somehow "above" it. So I gave up and decided to extoll the virtues of "Hide Signatures" instead.

Message edited by author 2005-09-22 08:57:06.
 09/22/2005 09:05:51 AM · #6
Originally posted by EddyG:
rex: Absolutely. :) I can use all the help I can get. I tried to educate people about proper netiquette, but most simply ignore it and think they are somehow "above" it. So I gave up and decided to extoll the virtues of "Hide Signatures" instead.


Cool thanks I am campaigning now.
 09/22/2005 09:21:59 AM · #7
Originally posted by scalvert:
As Eddy said, you can use layers with pixel data in Basic.


Just so there's not confusion, did you mean "you can NOT use layers with pixel data in Basic."?
 09/22/2005 09:25:25 AM · #8
Er... yeah. Read what my brain wrote, not my hands.
 09/22/2005 09:34:13 AM · #9
Originally posted by scalvert:
As Eddy said, you can use layers with pixel data in Basic. Copying your image to a layer for any reason would be grounds for DQ (even if the result is the same as using legal tools on the base layer). You can use Adjustment Layers in Normal blending mode only, and you can use Fade to fine-tune the strength of applied edits, but that's it.


I assume you meant to type "cannot use"...

Let me comment, as an aside to Eddy's discussion of this topic, that I'm not advocating any sort of complex, professional workflow here. The issue is much more limited than that; given that I CAN apply USM to my base pixel layer, and given that I CAN "fade" that USM with "edit/fade", the question only was "Is there any reason not to allow this process to be preserved on its own (normal mode) layer, since the two processes are effectively identical?"

Now I realize that this is a muddy area, and I'm perfectly willing to go along with the interpretation as given here, but nevertheless it seems odd to me, because there is literally NO way that SC (or anyone else) can determine that I have in fact cloned the base layer, sharpened the clone layer, then faded it and merged it later in the workflow, instead of sharpening directly on the base layer and fading the result with "edit/fade". They are exactly the same process, with the caveat that the "layered" version is available for adjustment (just as adjustment layers are) while the "integrated" version can't be undone later on.

Nobody ever said life made sense, though. I'll shaddup now.

R.


09/22/2005 09:45:24 AM · #10
Originally posted by bear_music:
"Is there any reason not to allow this process to be preserved on its own (normal mode) layer, since the two processes are effectively identical?"


I'll assume it's for keeping the rules simple. It's far easier to say (and enforce) "NO layers with pixel data" than to allow some, and then explain which ones and how much. Given that you can accomplish the same thing without layers, there's no compelling reason to muddy the rules any more than they already are.
 09/22/2005 09:53:29 AM · #11
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by bear_music:
"Is there any reason not to allow this process to be preserved on its own (normal mode) layer, since the two processes are effectively identical?"


I'll assume it's for keeping the rules simple. It's far easier to say (and enforce) "NO layers with pixel data" than to allow some, and then explain which ones and how much. Given that you can accomplish the same thing without layers, there's no compelling reason to muddy the rules any more than they already are.


Yeah, BUT you can accomplish hue/sat, selective color, levels, curves, allt hat stuff, without adjustment layers too. You can (and most people start exactly this way) apply these adjustments one-by-one right on the base layer. THIS is the inconsistency that bugs me; why not just say NO LAYERS and be done with it? The complication is ALREADY introduced where some sorts of layers are allowed and others are not.

R.
 09/22/2005 10:02:25 AM · #12
Adjustment Layers as a group work within the intent of the Basic rule set as long as the blend mode is Normal. They are a convenient editing tool that don't make the rules too complicated, which may not be true of other layers. This is speculation on my part, though, since I wasn't around for the discussion when these rules were written.
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