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09/05/2005 04:23:06 PM · #26 |
You only have to look at the comments made during the voting on many of the top placers to see that a person's style/technique is often recognized.
Some people do put a question mark, but others are dead sure - and for the most part they are, in fact, correct.
I wouldn't say that means that because they "know" who the photographer is they are giving freebie points, but I can imagine it would be hard to be objective in some cases.
I would feel a bit disgruntled if someone had assumed my photo was made by someone else, simply because I had chosen a style that was well-known to be used by another popular photographer on the site. Though I suppose it could be viewed as complimentary as well that I had acheived what the DPC voters considered a high standard.
It could go either way, I have no doubt I won't need to worry about it anytime soon though. :D
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09/05/2005 04:30:51 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by LucidLotus:
You only have to look at the comments made during the voting on many of the top placers to see that a person's style/technique is often recognized.
Some people do put a question mark, but others are dead sure - and for the most part they are, in fact, correct.
I wouldn't say that means that because they "know" who the photographer is they are giving freebie points, but I can imagine it would be hard to be objective in some cases.
I would feel a bit disgruntled if someone had assumed my photo was made by someone else, simply because I had chosen a style that was well-known to be used by another popular photographer on the site. Though I suppose it could be viewed as complimentary as well that I had acheived what the DPC voters considered a high standard.
It could go either way, I have no doubt I won't need to worry about it anytime soon though. :D |
It is valid to copy the 'style' of another artist as an exercise but to place value on this as an accomplishment is counter productive. This seems to be what happens here and this is fine but please let us try to have a higher standard for the photos that are chosen to ribbon.
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09/05/2005 04:35:46 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by LucidLotus:
I wouldn't say that means that because they "know" who the photographer is they are giving freebie points, but I can imagine it would be hard to be objective in some cases.
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Oh I am saying that. No doubt. This contest is no longer fair, and honour can't even come in discussion. this is why i enter challenges so rare and when I do I don't care if i win or who win's I do it because I have a good shot that I like to show to the few people who like what I do.
When this contest will be fair and honorable again, and we will all have paper bags on our identity not just those who opt for it, I will put my work in trying to win something, maybe. |
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09/05/2005 04:35:57 PM · #29 |
and yet another thread on the same matter, only phrased a bit different...
C'mon people, do you REALLY expect anything to change here, about what kind of picture wins a ribbon?
It's enough to look at the last D&L blue to understand that there's no hope for dpc anymore.
With all do respect to Librodo, and I do respect his work and professionality, but his last winner just makes me yawn.
It is way over sharpening, way neat-imaged, and it looks EXACTLY like each and every other picture he produced before.
And I am not even starting to talk about it's lame connection to the challenge topic. I mean, without the title, would any of you really match any D&L words to that entry?
And this one is your blue.
Well, I guess it's all ok, as long as you keep your hope up and finger on the update. |
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09/05/2005 04:42:46 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Originally posted by LucidLotus:
I wouldn't say that means that because they "know" who the photographer is they are giving freebie points, but I can imagine it would be hard to be objective in some cases.
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Oh I am saying that. No doubt. This contest is no longer fair, and honour can't even come in discussion. this is why i enter challenges so rare and when I do I don't care if i win or who win's I do it because I have a good shot that I like to show to the few people who like what I do.
When this contest will be fair and honorable again, and we will all have paper bags on our identity not just those who opt for it, I will put my work in trying to win something, maybe. |
I hope that we all can learn from this. That when the same is the same is the same IT IS VERY VERY BORING! Who really cares about a ribbon? How insane is that! I want to see something interesting and different and maybe unique (asking alot I know). Let's really make these 'challenges' challenging!
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09/05/2005 04:47:53 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by azoychka:
It is valid to copy the 'style' of another artist as an exercise but to place value on this as an accomplishment is counter productive. This seems to be what happens here and this is fine but please let us try to have a higher standard for the photos that are chosen to ribbon. |
I dissagree. There's is great value and accomplishment in learning how things are done.
Do you think Robert Oppenhiemer(Einstein, whoever) just jumped into Nuclear Physics or did he study other scientists and recreate/test/experiment on the theories of others?
Did Picasso, Braque or Leger all smack straight into Cubism or did they learn a foundation by studying and immitating others? And in this case, make that style their own.
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09/05/2005 04:50:33 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by azoychka:
It is valid to copy the 'style' of another artist as an exercise but to place value on this as an accomplishment is counter productive. This seems to be what happens here and this is fine but please let us try to have a higher standard for the photos that are chosen to ribbon. |
I dissagree. There's is great value and accomplishment in learning how things are done.
Do you think Robert Oppenhiemer(Einstein, whoever) just jumped into Nuclear Physics or did he study other scientists and recreate/test/experiment on the theories of others?
Did Picasso, Braque or Leger all smack straight into Cubism or did they learn a foundation by studying and immitating others? And in this case, make that style their own. |
Yes valuable, but they are a copy meant for learning. Will the ribbons end up all being copies? This is good?
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09/05/2005 04:57:55 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by azoychka:
It is valid to copy the 'style' of another artist as an exercise but to place value on this as an accomplishment is counter productive. This seems to be what happens here and this is fine but please let us try to have a higher standard for the photos that are chosen to ribbon. |
I dissagree. There's is great value and accomplishment in learning how things are done.
Do you think Robert Oppenhiemer(Einstein, whoever) just jumped into Nuclear Physics or did he study other scientists and recreate/test/experiment on the theories of others?
Did Picasso, Braque or Leger all smack straight into Cubism or did they learn a foundation by studying and immitating others? And in this case, make that style their own. |
people who larn alone often learn by copying, in an art school they will tell you it's wrong to do so, because no artist is perfect and you inherit theyr mistakes and ad them to your own. |
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09/05/2005 05:06:00 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Jinjit:
and yet another thread on the same matter, only phrased a bit different...
C'mon people, do you REALLY expect anything to change here, about what kind of picture wins a ribbon?
It's enough to look at the last D&L blue to understand that there's no hope for dpc anymore.
With all do respect to Librodo, and I do respect his work and professionality, but his last winner just makes me yawn.
It is way over sharpening, way neat-imaged, and it looks EXACTLY like each and every other picture he produced before.
And I am not even starting to talk about it's lame connection to the challenge topic. I mean, without the title, would any of you really match any D&L words to that entry?
And this one is your blue.
Well, I guess it's all ok, as long as you keep your hope up and finger on the update. |
Adi-I was trying to figure out a way to create Challenges that force people to read or study different things....move on. As the High Contrast challenge brought out many different ideas (oddly enough I didn't see to many really high contrast entries, LOL) and maybe push things out of common DPC comfort zones.
Maybe, try to box-out the sameness, in some way. I don't think anything will change overnight. It's going to be an evolutionary process if there's one at all but well worth the effort.
I am annoyed, I will add by the syropy, lavish of praise for the same stuff over and over and over again. It's ingraining a pretty narrow view and mindset.
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09/05/2005 05:10:14 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
people who larn alone often learn by copying, in an art school they will tell you it's wrong to do so, because no artist is perfect and you inherit theyr mistakes and ad them to your own. |
The practice of copying the masters is an old tradition. Sometimes valuable and sometimes not. Like technical skill it is great to learn it but it is dangerous because you can become enslaved to it.....an example being many ribbon winners here.
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09/05/2005 05:17:16 PM · #36 |
This is an interesting topic. Like the very images it complains about, it is a repeat. This conversation occurs after nearly every challenge. A small group of people, whose composition remains relatively constant, comes out of the closet to proclaim that DPC'ers are shallow or incapable of voting past a certain constant.
It's reminiscent of the occasions where a news media anchorperson complains about media "hype". Everyone else falls into the category of media except him. Those complaining about shallow DPC'ers must see themselves as something other than DPC'ers.
Is it so difficult to simply come to grips with the fact that people, as a group, are subjectively attracted to similar imagery? If that's a difficult concept, don't try marketing. It's based on that assumption. There are certain facts about humanity. All the complaining in the world won't change it one iota.
Lastly, while certain blue-ribbon photos clearly follow a formula, not all do. I managed to get one and I don't think my photo looks like anything I've seen on DPC. Is it possible that this entire topic is a generalization based on a minority of (clearly) formulaic photos?
Message edited by author 2005-09-05 17:21:59. |
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09/05/2005 05:34:27 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Adi-I was trying to figure out a way to create Challenges that force people to read or study different things....move on. |
Steve, your idea is beautiful. but unfortunately, not realistic.
Check the challenge archive. I am only looking one year back. Just a little more then 100 challenges.
You will see several interesting things:
1. only 3 photographers ribboned with an average score above 8.
2. ALL winning pics, have won before. Different photographers, different titles, same pictures.
3. The variaty of topics has been VERY wide. From as narrow as "Rock, Paper, Scissors" to as wide as "free study". All ribbon winning pictures end up to look the same.
Do you think there's a way to beat that? Looks like EVERYONE wants to be Librodo. I wonder if this is not just a possible explanation to his oddly high score...
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09/05/2005 05:41:09 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by azoychka:
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
people who larn alone often learn by copying, in an art school they will tell you it's wrong to do so, because no artist is perfect and you inherit theyr mistakes and ad them to your own. |
The practice of copying the masters is an old tradition. Sometimes valuable and sometimes not. Like technical skill it is great to learn it but it is dangerous because you can become enslaved to it.....an example being many ribbon winners here. |
Something like that. But not only here, I noticed it on other sites too, people together coming up with a set of rules out of nowere, and everything must comply to that. Here on DPC, people are obsessing with neatimage to extremes, there was a time when they were obsessing with rule of 3'ds and everything white in an image being interpreted as overexposed, and than there is one thing that kills me every time, I always seem to have something "distracting" for some "interesting" to others. People often take this rules as a must for every image, and they forget that they are just guiding rules, rules that can enhance a composition on some ocasions, but photography really doesnt have rules. There are people here who when they give a vote they also make an equation as a comment here is an example:
Fit Challenge Criteria: 0/2
Color/Contrast: 2/2
Composition: 2/2
Photo Quality: 2/2
My Subjective Affinity: 1/2
Oh man that's such a wrong thing to do. can you even see photos when you are adding everything like that? I lost there because in the ecuation cows are not zoo animals. Only exotic animals are zoo animals. Uhm what can I say? Ok. In my zoo there are cows. In my zoology book there are also cows but if it's not in his ecuation I lost. Look at the pictures people art must be percived with the heart and the soul and not with the calculator. |
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09/05/2005 05:42:22 PM · #39 |
| Steve, could you tell me where to find this Heida tutorial you talk about? I'd like to look into it. Thanks. |
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09/05/2005 05:43:14 PM · #40 |
Well, Hollywood just had it's worst Summer season since, '97(?)and I bet their complacency will be dealt with quickly.
I didn't mean to post up another Bul*** rant but to search for ideas to help the community move along. It's always worth having a civilized discussion I would hope.
To quote you (aboutimage)"Is it possible that this entire topic is a generalization based on a minority of (clearly) formulaic photos?" yes but I don't think it's a minority.
Worse however, is the formulaic way of thinking and I NEVER mean to disparage any photographers for doing what they do. I should also add that my thoughts are not at all about about D&L but something similar.
"Subjective" probably hits the nail on the head if you needed one word and yes I do have some difficulty coming to grips with that(not obsessed). Maybe I'm an idealist?
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09/05/2005 05:43:41 PM · #41 |
| Pictures of cows often do surprisingly well. |
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09/05/2005 05:46:13 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Pictures of cows often do surprisingly well. |
Yea but not in a zoo challenge :D The calculator only has exotic animals in for that challenge :)
I bet exotic people are also high in the calculator for the color portrait also :))
Message edited by author 2005-09-05 17:47:28. |
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09/05/2005 05:48:56 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Pictures of cows often do surprisingly well. |
LOL
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09/05/2005 05:54:36 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Jinjit:
2. ALL winning pics, have won before. Different photographers, different titles, same pictures. |
I went through the archives. I don't think your assertion is supportable. Certainly there are photos that are blatant repeats of others, but how can you tie other ones together? This winning photo is just a repeat because a previous winner was also done in B&W? Based on what you just said, there's no way to win honourably, because EVERYTHING has been done before.
No, while there is SOME merit to what you said (some photos are clearly copies), I disagree with your wholesale generalization of every group of winning entries. Not only is it insulting to the photographers who won, it's insulting to the voters who placed it there.
What happens when YOU win? Do you automatically disqualify yourself because it's been done before? Where are these amazing entries that transcend into what you would consider to be TRUE winners?
Other than some of the blatant copies, I think most winning entries were well deserved. I think this entire topic shows a lack of understanding for the media in which the photos are being presented. |
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09/05/2005 05:55:28 PM · #45 |
| I've noticed something in the last several challenges. It seems that alot of people on this site vote based on their first snap impression of the photograph. For instance, a photo that has alot of initial 'wow' or 'cool' eye candy will generally get a higher score than a photo that doesn't have the initial 'wow' or 'cool' but is much more well thought out and unique. Similar to a thong bikini clad woman on a beach and her friend wearing khakis and a tank top, which would *most* men initially think is the more beautiful? |
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09/05/2005 05:55:49 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by ajschel:
Steve, could you tell me where to find this Heida tutorial you talk about? I'd like to look into it. Thanks. |
In this threadwhich you'll have to look through, she beautifully goes into the steps she used for one of her latest ribbon winners.
It made me rethink my whole post processing method and my Rain entry was the first time I did things with layers more or less the same way. Look at her order of operations. It's simply a nice, intelligent approach to the process.
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09/05/2005 06:05:54 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by aboutimage:
Not only is it insulting to the photographers who won, it's insulting to the voters who placed it there.
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David- I see myself as one of those voters that could use a crack across the head for my patterns. I slip into a bad, eye-candy zone that I need to shake myself from too often.
As is, you can use DPC to great advantage but I hope it doesn't get tediously predictable and I for one am not too thrilled with the voters. It's ok for me now but I am wearing a little thin.
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09/05/2005 06:13:22 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by aboutimage:
Not only is it insulting to the photographers who won, it's insulting to the voters who placed it there.
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And I am insulted by cliques of "forum buddies" voting eachother making this contest a bad joke. Can I be insulted by that? Ribbon winners should win without every second commenter saying his name. |
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09/05/2005 06:22:04 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Now, about this "dirty" look, tell me more about it or point me in the right direction. Maybe DPC is primed and ready for a little "Dirt A La Pawdrix". Maybe I'll change my call name to UncleSticky and dish out lifes underbelly, unabridged.
Anyone know about this dirty processing? How's it done? |
Not as in a specific technique, but technically flawed (deliberately) - some grain, harsh burnt areas and a reduced colour palette, maybe. I tried it with this (with mixed results).
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09/05/2005 06:23:56 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Atropos:
... a thong bikini clad woman on a beach and her friend wearing khakis and a tank top, which would *most* men initially think is the more beautiful? |
Depends on what they were reading...
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