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08/22/2005 05:38:23 PM · #51 |
OK, I rest my case!!! Someone finally took the time to look at my entry and see it for all it was worth. Thank you! I was beginning to think that I was way out in left field on this one... FINALLY someone shared my vision. I want to PM the member and thank them but then I would be given the identity of the photo away.... So until the end of the challenge I'll have to be satisfied with an anonymous thank you in a random post. |
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08/22/2005 05:52:05 PM · #52 |
I am thoroughly enjoying this challenge, and the discussions around it. Unfortunately it is often difficult to judge from a photo how much effort went into it.
Some great photos are snap shots, and some lousy images have taken hours of work.
I wanted to do something special for this challenge as it is an area of photography I love. To get my photo took about 5 hours of work for me, and 2 1/2 sometimes very uncomfortable hours for my model (a friend). I hope it has paid off. In my mind yes as we have many beautiful images we are both proud of. Wheather they win or not is secondary, as I am happy with them.
In my voting I am trying to consider that most of the models are friends / spouses and self portraits, so not putting emphasis on the body is important. If however the photographer has the luck to have or made the effort to find an attractive model and has created a technically and emotionally beautiful picture, they will be rewarded for it. That said, many of my top marks (I am only 1/2 done voting) are completely based on the photo, not the model.
I think it is extremely important that voters don't make any negative comments about the subjects (Poses yes, figures / looks no). Positive comments are allowed, but no negative ones as these can take offence.
Congratulations on some great images. |
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08/22/2005 06:28:23 PM · #53 |
Did you ever see the movie "Calendar Girls"? A bunch of middle-aged (or older) women make a nude calendar for charity in a northeen English town. (I'm not sure if it was mentioned in the movies and photography thread a while back.) Worth a look, quite funny. |
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08/22/2005 07:22:43 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by mesmeraj: No - it is not clear that i have taken offence, because i havent. That is your assumption.
it is clear that i dont agree with you. Not agreeing and taking offence are totally different things. And no i have not taken a defensive posture against form based appeal - you again make assumptions. I am all for any shape and aged model, it would seen that you infact are offended by such a subject.
I don't believe you are appriciating nudes as nudes are supposed to be appriciated (ruben never painted to give you arousal, it should be no different in nude photography). If this was an erotic nude challenge, you would be correct in what you said - this is not an erotic nude challenge, but a nude challenge, and whether it wakes your lower half tinge is not relevent imho to the vote.
and thats all it is, my humble opinion. |
Thanks for letting me know that I know not how to appreciate nudes. You guidance has clearly humbled me. I'll now get back to my Large Mouth Bass weekly. |
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08/22/2005 07:42:55 PM · #55 |
Well, just finished voting and I've given the most tens ever (17 out of 117) and I've got 2 new faves from the challenge too.
Well done to everybody who entered.
thierry |
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08/22/2005 07:45:51 PM · #56 |
My opinion is that we are competing among people who "know what they're doing". With that in mind, the level of competition is going to be high and the discriminating factors that separate 1st and 10th are going to be small. Even if having an attractive model is a small advantage (and I personally believe it's more than a small advantage), it is still an advantage. You can attempt to convey a message with an atypical model, but this is much harder to do and thus you will more often suffer (ratings) in the end. Sometimes this type of picture hits right on the mark and blows everybody away, but many times it gets understood by a select audience and is lost on the others. That's the risk you take shooting for the stars.
If you are going for that, I'd pay attention more to the comments rather than your rating. You cannot both speak to a select audience and have mass appeal (at least not commonly)... |
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08/22/2005 09:26:29 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo: My opinion is that we are competing among people who "know what they're doing". With that in mind, the level of competition is going to be high and the discriminating factors that separate 1st and 10th are going to be small. Even if having an attractive model is a small advantage (and I personally believe it's more than a small advantage), it is still an advantage. You can attempt to convey a message with an atypical model, but this is much harder to do and thus you will more often suffer (ratings) in the end. Sometimes this type of picture hits right on the mark and blows everybody away, but many times it gets understood by a select audience and is lost on the others. That's the risk you take shooting for the stars.
If you are going for that, I'd pay attention more to the comments rather than your rating. You cannot both speak to a select audience and have mass appeal (at least not commonly)... |
Well, I guess that pretty much sums it up! |
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08/22/2005 10:18:12 PM · #58 |
OK... done... I commented and voted on ALL entries. |
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08/22/2005 11:42:32 PM · #59 |
OK... Just an observation for this discussion and this is based on a very small number of shots that I've voted on/commented on so far. In this challenge, I've decided to vote and comment on all photos and at the same time. In the past I've voted first and went back and commented. I say all this to set the stage for the following observation...
From what I've seen so far the winner will be a good photo of an attractive (spelled thin, tight, well endowed man or woman) model. I say this for one very good reason. The best shots overall that I've seen so far are the ones that are impeccably posed and well lit. The posing of models is not for the most part a natural thing. It comes from working with models a lot. Of course there are exceptions but they are the exceptions and not the rule. The best lighting comes from those photographers that have the best lighting to work with. It also comes from the photographers that have the experience to work that equipment. Of course there are exceptions... Both of these elements imply that there is a history with models. This makes it easier for these photographers to get models who are attractive to pose for them. It does give them an edge.
I don't have posing skills as a photographer and I don't have great lighting equipment or the knowledge to use it if I had it. Many of us don't. This does put us at a disadvantage but it shouldn't discourage us. All photographers have to start someplace. I entered this challenge even though I was afraid to. I had to muster up the courage to enter it. I don't have an experienced model to work with. I had to use someone close to me with less than a perfect body. My score is not very good. But that is not why I entered the challenge. It was to garner a touch of experience and most importantly to gain a little knowledge from the great photographers who grace this site.
This is also probably the hardest challenge for me to vote/comment on. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but feel the need to tell it like I see it. I also don't have the know how in model photography to help out with the posing/lighting shortcomings in these shots. I do know when a shot works for me and when it doesn't so that is all I have to go on when commenting/voting...
I will comment on all the entries in the challenge because I feel that I owe it to all who did have the courage to enter a challenge that is difficult, a challenge that is new to many of us. I expect to learn a lot by taking the time to study each shot. I also expect to score not so well and I expect some buff pro or semi-pro model shot to win. It's almost a given. I will not however use that as an excuse to why I didn't do well. I know my shortcomings. That's why I entered! To get outside my comfort zone. To learn and grow as a photographer in general. I hope others have the same experience and do not hold grudges towards those that do win just because the winning shot IS of an attractive model...
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08/23/2005 12:11:17 AM · #60 |
I'm new to DPC and decided to enter my first members challenge - nude III. I'm pleased that my entry is doing well, currently sitting at 5.94, I'd love to see it go over six. I have been reading this thread and it sounds like there is a way of seeing the current rankings of all the entries, but I can't find it. I can see a page showing how I voted, and how my entry is going... am I missing something? |
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08/23/2005 12:14:38 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by Leok: I'm new to DPC and decided to enter my first members challenge - nude III. I'm pleased that my entry is doing well, currently sitting at 5.94, I'd love to see it go over six. I have been reading this thread and it sounds like there is a way of seeing the current rankings of all the entries, but I can't find it. I can see a page showing how I voted, and how my entry is going... am I missing something? |
Nope, but when you've been here a while you will pick up on some trends!
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08/23/2005 12:18:12 AM · #62 |
I really, really wanted to enter this with another less-than-perfect shot like I did last time. Didn't get the chance though - too much work :( It'll be fun to vote, though. |
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08/23/2005 02:24:58 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by Leok: I'm new to DPC and decided to enter my first members challenge - nude III. I'm pleased that my entry is doing well, currently sitting at 5.94, I'd love to see it go over six. I have been reading this thread and it sounds like there is a way of seeing the current rankings of all the entries, but I can't find it. I can see a page showing how I voted, and how my entry is going... am I missing something? |
there is always another thread that people post scores to (nude scores i believe) but untill the challenge is officially over you don't see any of that info... |
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08/23/2005 03:10:44 AM · #64 |
I have hugely enjoyed taking part in this challenge (my model has too!) and have been fascinated by the plethora of posts to this and other threads. The subject has been tackled exhaustively from many different viewpoints so I was surprised to discover a new angle in one of the comments made on my entry. I have only received kind and constructive comments (so far!) so I raise this only out of interest. The commenter (under 30 years old)included the phrase 'perfect woman' which prompted me to ask what criteria should be used to decide. What age should she be? What size should she be? What shape should she be? Long or short hair? Blonde or brunette (or grey!!!). Hour-glass figure or bean-pole? Lissom or Rubenesque? Serious facial expression or smiling?
My model, who I have known for more than half a century, had her 70th birthday party a few weeks ago and would certainly not make a claim to qualify for 'perfect woman' status but you can guess what I think!
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08/23/2005 03:34:14 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by TooCool: Originally posted by Leok: I have been reading this thread and it sounds like there is a way of seeing the current rankings of all the entries, but I can't find it. |
Nope, but when you've been here a while you will pick up on some trends! |
Thanks TooCool, reading some of the other comments about which images are doing well in THIS challenge had me confused, people are just guessing...
As far as the bombshell vs average or obese body debate goes I believe the challenge is about making an image with impact. While a sexy model can help with this there is much more needed. A badly lit / composed / exposed image is unlikely to show off a beautiful models true potential, I'm sure we have all seen awful pictures of attractive subjects. A good photographer can make a memorable image from a less than perfect subject (not that I'm claiming to have great photographic skills, but I hope to one day). Beauty (or erotisim for that matter) is not the only way of making an interesting image, it may be comic, moving, cute or whatever the photographer can come up with. For example images of pregnant women usually do well without being considered amazingly erotic.
In short a great nude photo is like any other great photo - the photographer will have an insight into what makes an eyecatching image, and the technical skill to make the image they imagined...
The voters here vote according to their background and taste. The challenge here is to create an image which will appeal to a broad cross-section of the community, albeit that the voters here are presumably more interested in photography than the average Joe. If an image is doing poorly it means the photographer has not satisfied this aim. If your aim is to make images for youself / arty types or some other minority group be happy with what you do but this does not automatically mean a photo that will score well here. If you feel the voters are not spending long enough looking at your image that is because your image does not have that wow factor that makes people want to look longer...
My 2c |
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08/23/2005 07:25:17 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
From what I've seen so far the winner will be a good photo of an attractive (spelled thin, tight, well endowed man or woman) model. I say this for one very good reason. The best shots overall that I've seen so far are the ones that are impeccably posed and well lit. The posing of models is not for the most part a natural thing. It comes from working with models a lot. Of course there are exceptions but they are the exceptions and not the rule. The best lighting comes from those photographers that have the best lighting to work with. It also comes from the photographers that have the experience to work that equipment. Of course there are exceptions... Both of these elements imply that there is a history with models. This makes it easier for these photographers to get models who are attractive to pose for them. It does give them an edge.
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I agree with all of what you have said. I would just like to add that after all of my mumbo jumbo about not voting based on the model blah blah blah, I just went back and reviewed how I scored. I gave out 4 10's and all but one were of the stereotypical beautiful female/male. The one 10 I gave that wasn't of a beatiful person was an image that floored me with it's creativity, lighting, technical execution, and HUMOR. The other 3 were not voted high because the had attractive models, they were voted high because they also showed excellent lighting, composition, and technical execution.
It'll be interesting to see how this competition goes... There are a wide range of photographic styles and a wide range of voting tastes. I have come to expect the unexpected here.
On a side note, my score is improving somewhat as more people take more time looking at my submission. The score is not as good as I feel it deserves, there are still a large number of people who "don't get it"... Oh well... such is life "outside the box"!!! Maybe I won't be so subtle next time. ;-) |
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08/24/2005 07:58:40 AM · #67 |
I'd like to thank the 361st voter on my submission for pushing me over the elusive 6.0 barrier! I've been watching my score all day, it went as high as 5.98, dropped down to 5.90 and then slowly increased to the magic 6.0, I wonder if it'll stay there???
Votes: 361
Views: 1184
Avg Vote: 6.0000
Comments: 35
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08/24/2005 08:31:04 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by Leok: I'd like to thank the 361st voter on my submission for pushing me over the elusive 6.0 barrier! I've been watching my score all day, it went as high as 5.98, dropped down to 5.90 and then slowly increased to the magic 6.0, I wonder if it'll stay there???
Votes: 361
Views: 1184
Avg Vote: 6.0000
Comments: 35 |
Your welcome ;-) |
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08/24/2005 10:30:35 AM · #69 |
From reading this thread it's clear that many people are taking the Nude III challenge quite a bit differently than a regular dpc challenge. I suppose that's normal for those who rallied their courage, guts and bravery to shoot and enter. I didn't. But am pleased to see that a lot of learning is going on.
The voters are the same group of people that vote in the other challenges. To expect them to perform very much differently is naive. I'm voting on the quality of the entries and trying not to be swayed by the gender, weight, or age of the subject. On the whole I think the group is not up to the usual standard here at dpc. The cream will rise to the top of the final results as it always does. But I predict that the challenge as a whole will score below par, and rightfully so. Wish I could give you a higher vote for your courage, or for the story you are trying to tell. But if it's not there in your entry how am I supposed to know? An awful lot of these entries are just plain poor quality photography.
Just my two cents.
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08/24/2005 10:57:39 AM · #70 |
Interesting. Based on my own score, I figured the scoring would be higher than normal. Course, I'm lousy at judging what I will score as the images of mine I don't care for do well and often the ones I do like do poorly.
There are some amazing images in this group. There are also some poorly planned images. I am working my way through commenting, currently at about 50% complete.
Kudos to those who bared it all. Even more to those that did it while considering lighting, composition, and tonality. You've done good. :)
d
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08/24/2005 10:58:20 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by coolhar: ... But I predict that the challenge as a whole will score below par, and rightfully so. Wish I could give you a higher vote for your courage, or for the story you are trying to tell. But if it's not there in your entry how am I supposed to know? An awful lot of these entries are just plain poor quality photography.
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I agree... Most of the entries to have many technical flaws. I guess my point is that all of the comments I have received have praised the technical execution of the shot. I've not received any negative comments on lighting, composition, pose, etc. Yet still the score is just so-so... The only explanation is that the voters just "don't get it" I've had one person to actually see what I was going for. I had heard that anytime you step "outside the box", you get shot down for it. I'm new to DPC and this is only my 4th challenge entry. Personally I thought it was one of my better shots. Unfortunately it just seems to be too abstract for the voters to wrap their brains around.
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08/24/2005 11:07:46 AM · #72 |
YO YO YO.... iv read some of the things that were going on here...
i must say my opinion... its great you take the scoring to your heart.. but dont "live the score" i think what more important is the comments and not like"good shot" "great idea" im reffering to something you can learn out of it.. somehting about the lighting/shadow , contrast/brightnes , focus/deph , composition/subject.. and so one..
dont forget we are here to learn... and i did learned a lot from others since Joining..
i think people here afraid to give critisim coz they afraid they wont be in Favorite or something... what other reason could be?
photographer will be offended? he might.. but he will learn something about other photographers ideas...
think about it...
play it cool
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08/24/2005 11:23:20 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by ldowse:
I agree... Most of the entries to have many technical flaws. I guess my point is that all of the comments I have received have praised the technical execution of the shot. I've not received any negative comments on lighting, composition, pose, etc. Yet still the score is just so-so... The only explanation is that the voters just "don't get it" I've had one person to actually see what I was going for. I had heard that anytime you step "outside the box", you get shot down for it. I'm new to DPC and this is only my 4th challenge entry. Personally I thought it was one of my better shots. Unfortunately it just seems to be too abstract for the voters to wrap their brains around. |
Just my opinion but, I think there is a contingent of voters who are voting down images that show anything less than total nudity - i.e. hidden breasts get rated lower. Like you, my comments are good but my score doesn't reflect the votes they say they gave me. I alas, have no nip in my shot. :) Someone earlier in the thread mentioned they were scoring lower for that; I am assuming others are also.
d
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08/24/2005 11:29:43 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Just my opinion but, I think there is a contingent of voters who are voting down images that show anything less than total nudity - i.e. hidden breasts get rated lower. Like you, my comments are good but my score doesn't reflect the votes they say they gave me. I alas, have no nip in my shot. :) Someone earlier in the thread mentioned they were scoring lower for that; I am assuming others are also.
d |
I agree... that does seem to be the concensus, but in my case is not applicable... Nudity is certainly not in question in my particular entry. ;-)
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08/24/2005 11:45:25 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by ldowse: ... The only explanation is that the voters just "don't get it" I've had one person to actually see what I was going for. I had heard that anytime you step "outside the box", you get shot down for it. I'm new to DPC and this is only my 4th challenge entry. Personally I thought it was one of my better shots. Unfortunately it just seems to be too abstract for the voters to wrap their brains around. |
One man's "don't get it" could be another man's "poor quality photography". "Outside the box" and "too abstract" are just another way of saying that an image didn't meet the voters idea of a good shot that met the challenge topic. Be glad that one commenter understood you. If that's not enough, and you want to score higher in the future-- try to move toward what you perceive to be the voters expectations. Waiting for them to embrace your vision is like waiting for Godot. And the voters are always correct here at dpc.
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