Naked Intimacy - Challenge of a different sort

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

08/22/2005 03:12:37 PM · #29

Originally posted by DrJOnes:

This is a NUDE challenge. We are programmed to be aroused by bodies we find attractive. If the shot attempts to show a nude body, than the subject better be pleasing to the eye.

Very well said.

People - how many of you would vote dark-black ugly bugs, or withered flowers, high in a macro challenge? How many of you complained that only beautiful flowers and colorful bugs win?

Why should this challenge be any different?

Nitin

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

08/22/2005 03:16:25 PM · #30

Originally posted by di53:

I agree with you 100% Sad to say that the photos that will probably take top spots are because they have slim bodies... not because they are technically the best

Not true - Past ribbon winners have included a pregnant woman and a male. So its not just slim bombshells that win.

08/22/2005 03:28:07 PM · #31

Originally posted by DrJOnes:

If one is to try and approach nude photography, and wants to convey a message of beauty, or sex, or sexyness, than it is not only an advantage to get an attractive model, it is imperative.

i completely disagree.
You are equating beautiful = sexy. This simply is not so.
I am not a bombshell. I am beautiful. You might not consider my body type sexy but that does not mean i cannot make a beautiful nude image. AnnMarie Tornabenesis a perfect example to disprove your theory. She is an overweight self portrait photographer, her body is far from what society would call sexy or even beautiful. Yet she creates images that are 10 times more beautiful imho than anything i have seen shot in glamour (no offence intended, but art is to me far more beautiful than a bombshell in clear heels).

Nude is about nakeness, arousal is a secondary feature, not the primary.

Message edited by author 2005-08-22 15:30:44.

08/22/2005 03:29:58 PM · #32

Originally posted by di53:

I agree with you 100% Sad to say that the photos that will probably take top spots are because they have slim bodies... not because they are technically the best

Originally posted by mesmeraj:
i just read all the nitty gritty of this post and i have a few points of self reflection

1. I am a nude model for other artists (thus apparently an exhibitionist) so vote me down
2. I took a self portrait so vote me up
3. I am not a "bombshell" i have small tits and a tummy so vote me down
4. I specifically composed the image vote me up (but im getting voted down for it hahah)

If only i was " not in my prime" (thoug some could say im not since im not taut tight and titt'd) you could vote me down.

People are starting to forget this is a photography website not a is this hot or not website.

i actually think a male will get the blue ribbon (and definatley deserves it), i just think people are being silly about them. It is a nude challenge not a woodie challenge ;)

Tamron AF 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon

08/22/2005 03:38:43 PM · #33

Originally posted by DrJOnes:

This is the real setting in which the photos are submitted. This is not an art gallery, it's a contest. Sure enough, it's great that the philosophy behind DPC is to actually learn and improve our skills as a photographer. But let's never loose focus on how this is achieved: through a contest. And in this regard, when submitting photos to DPC with the intent on ranking higher, ones need to take into account the viewer and how fast the voting procedures work.

This doesn't mean we have to like it. Sure enough, there are some styles of photography that unfortunately suffer from the above restrictions. That said, we have to accept it as it is part of the game. Otherwize, what's the point of submitting here then?

This is my humble opinion. Take it with a grain of salt. And maybe a tomato slice or two. (Yam, tomatoes and salt.... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm)

Point taken... however, might I just point out that my score seems to be improving (as is often the case in these challenges) which just further proves my belief that many are voting without truly seeing the image.

vtruan

Nikon D5100

08/22/2005 03:41:47 PM · #34

Mine has an extremely nice thin Bombshell, and it is still going to be a Brownie :)

DrJOnes

Nikon D3

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

08/22/2005 03:48:47 PM · #35

Originally posted by mesmeraj:

Originally posted by DrJOnes:
If one is to try and approach nude photography, and wants to convey a message of beauty, or sex, or sexyness, than it is not only an advantage to get an attractive model, it is imperative.

i completely disagree.
You are equating beautiful = sexy. This simply is not so.
I am not a bombshell. I am beautiful. You might not consider my body type sexy but that does not mean i cannot make a beautiful nude image. AnnMarie Tornabenesis a perfect example to disprove your theory. She is an overweight self portrait photographer, her body is far from what society would call sexy or even beautiful. Yet she creates images that are 10 times more beautiful imho than anything i have seen shot in glamour (no offence intended, but art is to me far more beautiful than a bombshell in clear heels).

Nude is about nakeness, arousal is a secondary feature, not the primary.

You are right: beauty does not necesserely mean sexy. What I meant to say is if you trying to render the model attractive to the viewer (appealing in a sexual manner), than choosing the right subject is part of the process of creating the photo.

Note that I did not say NUDE photography absolutely needs slim and attractive models. When the intention of the photographer is clear to the viewer, than any subject is possible and can be beautiful to the viewer. Beauty is a wide concept, and certainly does not only apply to the subject, but to the overall photo (that's a beautiful shot!).

If you look at Anne Marie's photos of overweight subjects, she clearly worked on her lighting and colors to convey a mood to each shot to bring out the beauty your are refering to. Plus, the model in the photo does have attitude, which is part of the interest in the photos. Which brings us back to what I was saying: with a model that does not fit into the standards of what we perceive as an attractive body, the photographer has to work harder into creating an image that will clearly give the proper tools to the viewer to appreciate the image.

Anne Marie decided to tackle her obesity and create self portraits that would be pleasing to the eye of the viewer. She found a way to do that through light, model energy, and through playing (mise en scene images, etc.). He subject is obesity first and foremost, and not nudity.

Message edited by author 2005-08-22 15:54:38.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/22/2005 03:49:30 PM · #36

Originally posted by mesmeraj:

I don't think that was his point at all. I think he was saying that the purpose of the photo must be clear. If the purpose is societies expectations of beauty, then use a model that conforms to societal standards of beauty.

Originally posted by DrJOnes:

If the subject is not meant to be sensual, erotic, or bring any type of attraction between the viewer and the photo, than certainly the photographer better work hard on creating a mood in the photograph in order to make it CLEAR to the viewer what the photo is about. If the subject is considered unnatractive by the viewer, and the message is not clear, the viewer looses interest. It is only natural. And yes, the reverse is also true: if the message is not so clear and not so well executed, but the subject is attractive for the viewer, the photo captures the viewer's interest just that longer and gets better points... The same applies to all photos submitted on DPC. Sometimes, a photo will rank higher than others not on technical merit, but because of the subject and how it touched the viewers.

I don't think it's
beautiful = sexy
but more like model = statement

Edit: ooops too slow

Message edited by author 2005-08-22 15:50:35.

barndog

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

08/22/2005 03:52:50 PM · #37

I have come to grips with the voting this way. there seems two different sets of voters here, the majority and minority.

The majority can be classified as common consumer. Images which are more mainstream, magazine ads, television etc are preferred. These viewers will better prepare you to make money with your pictures. (this can also be beginner through pro photographer voting with this concept in mind)

The minority can be classified as art lover. Images which speak to them, both in technical superiority as well as quality of image, independent of current mainstream opinion. These viewers will generally leave comments and help you improve your skills, refine your vision and encourage your creativity.

Both points of view are valuable and will teach you something. I would personally prefer to do without the harsher comments but hey, there is all sorts of people in the world and if you want to sell, you will be selling to all different types.

08/22/2005 03:56:06 PM · #38

Originally posted by barndog:

The minority can be classified as art lover. Images which speak to them, both in technical superiority as well as quality of image, independent of current mainstream opinion. These viewers will generally leave comments and help you improve your skills, refine your vision and encourage your creativity.

What a small minority! 190 votes and 8 comments seems a bit lopsided to me.

Azrifel

Fujifilm X100VI

08/22/2005 03:58:14 PM · #39

In the light of this discussion I have reviewed my own votes, because I am not sure I will comment yet I will make some generalising comments for my scoring.

10) Two tens. Compared to the others they are exceptionally well lit + interesting and original poses + excellently composed + good toning + perfect technical bla bla. For me they are works of art, they are interesting to look at, hold my attention and make me want to return later to look at them again. One is a male, the other a female where the nakedness is not even the most important element of a photo. They are both total packages that tickle my brain and not some lower parts of my body.

9) One nine. Good composition + good PP + interesting subject + fun (fun is a nice emotion). It lacks a bit in the lighting department. Hence the nine. It's a male and as I am not attracted to males, there was no sexist voting.

8) Three eights. Great images but they lack certain aspects that the 10 and 9 scores have. What makes them stand out is the originallity of the pose and how they were lit. I like them a lot but they do not manage to appeal as much as the others. They are all three women, either their breasts aren't visible (2) or they aren't so large (1).

7) Fourteen sevens. These images lack certain aspects but have other elements that make them stand out. These need improvements, mostly lighting, toning, pose and composition. Some of these models are nice to look at, some are less appealing.

6) Twenty-eight sixes. These images do not manage to appeal to me, or tell their story. This is because the do not manage to hold my attention because they lack in composition, toning, postprocessing, pose. A combination of more of these factors. They however have certain elements that are still good. There is room for improvement without too much trouble. The models may be nice to look at, but the photo doesn't do them justice.

5) Sixty-one fives. These photos have multiple major flaws in composition, pose, light, presentation (props, backgrounds, other elements, the look on the face of the model, like uncomfortable -it's your job as photographer to make your model look confident and comfortable with what you both are doing), postprocessing (whitebalance, contrast, tone, color) etc, etc. They do not appeal to me, they do not manage to hold my attention whatever their story is, I see little room for improvement without making a comment as long as this forum post. I must admit that all "hands in front of breasts" photos can be found here, because for me that's not what nude photography is about. This doesn't mean that "here are some tits and nipples" photos are very interesting.

4) Eight fours. These photo's are off-topic or exceptionally bad. They are either not about nude or plain crap.

3), 2), 1) None

I did not enter a photo in this challenge, nor have I entered the first and 2nd nude challenges. I have never entered a portrait challenge, except the last selfportrait challenge, just to show my face and for a guess my face game with Kiwiness. So, that's right, I have no experience as a photographer with good artful portraiture (only newspaper style) and nudes. But after almost 50.000 votes here at DPC, looking at many photographs at other sites and studying classic portraiture paintings I sure do know what I like and what works and doesn't work. That I cannot produce something decent myself doesn't mean that I don't know what's good and what not.

(In all my naivity?) I can hardly believe that many at DPC will vote a Nude challenge based on the size of tits and bellies or see it as 'next topmodel' contest.

For those with photos in the challenge, I cannot comment on all so I hope the above was of some help. Don't take it personal.

08/22/2005 04:05:48 PM · #40

i really enjoyed that breakdown Azrifel - i hope i get a comment hahah.

jenesis

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

08/22/2005 04:11:06 PM · #41

Originally posted by ldowse:

Originally posted by barndog:

The minority can be classified as art lover. Images which speak to them, both in technical superiority as well as quality of image, independent of current mainstream opinion. These viewers will generally leave comments and help you improve your skills, refine your vision and encourage your creativity.

What a small minority! 190 votes and 8 comments seems a bit lopsided to me.

Just a little sidenote to the votes VS. comments on this challenge. Being that alot of these models are spouses or self portraits, some may refrain from commenting in order not to hurt feelings. It has the potential to be a sensitive subject to some. Especially given that I'd guess this is the first times for alot of these models to have ever done this. I could be wrong, but it is a possibility. I would hope most people that put themselves up for this would be prepared for the comments, but you just never know how some people might react. Just a thought.

puzzled

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

08/22/2005 04:15:08 PM · #42

Originally posted by Alienyst:

Originally posted by mesmeraj:
People are starting to forget this is a photography website not a is this hot or not website.

None of my scores were given with any consideration to the 'look' or 'appeal' of the model.

Same here. Also want to say this:

I haven't looked a single Nude challenge entry yet, but this thread helps reinforce my general fears of hurting someone's feelings by commenting on images. It sucks to hurt people's feelings ;-)

For all challenges, I really try to study each image that I vote on. I also try to give thoughtful comments to as many as possible. Thing is, I'm just an amateur with no particular qualifications to make any comments. As a DPC member, giving and receiving comments helps me get the most out of being here. For me, it's the "negative" comments that help me think about where I might have gone wrong in my attempt to make a good photograph. If I feel the commenter misunderstood, then at least their comment helps me to understand one honest way a viewer perceived my challenge attempt.

So the dilemma remains in this and in all challenge voting: When I give a lower-than-average score, should I leave an honest comment about my impression of the image, even though it's from an "uneducated" point of view?

I really have no desire to hurt people's feelings: I try to choose my words carefully; even though I hope for any comments at all on my own entries, I'm hesitant to comment critically on others', especially if the image may be a sensitive and personal part of the shooter. Problem is, the voter can't always know when any given entry is a sensitive and personal part of the photographer.

Thanks to everyone who entered the Nude challenge. I look forward to voting and trying to make constructive comments - but I won't be very free with comments on images I give under a six (sorry).

08/22/2005 04:18:19 PM · #43

Originally posted by jenesis:

That I can fully understand and appreciate. However, one CAN safely comment on composition, lighting, pose, etc. I think the general concensus of this post has shown that the sex appeal of the model is a small portion of the overall composition. So far I have commented on all that I have voted on. Some do have "unattractive" models. That's not the point though. Given the model as a constant, what other variables could be changed to improve the photo?

TooCool

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

08/22/2005 04:20:43 PM · #44

Originally posted by jenesis:

I would have liked to see the bag head option removed for this challenge. People will tend to think more about the ramifications of their comments during a challenge such as this if they can not hide...

jenesis

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

08/22/2005 04:24:27 PM · #45

Originally posted by ldowse:

Originally posted by jenesis:

Just a little sidenote to the votes VS. comments on this challenge. Being that alot of these models are spouses or self portraits, some may refrain from commenting in order not to hurt feelings...

That I can fully understand and appreciate. However, one CAN safely comment on composition, lighting, pose, etc. I think the general concensus of this post has shown that the sex appeal of the model is a small portion of the overall composition. So far I have commented on all that I have voted on. Some do have "unattractive" models. That's not the point though. Given the model as a constant, what other variables could be changed to improve the photo?

I agree.

And I still don't get the whole bagged head thing.... eventually your identity will be revealed so whatever "ramifications" there are they will still come to light. Just saves the PM's for after the challenge is over, that's all. I don't think people are hiding behind them, they just don't want to get the all the PM's until later I suppose.

Message edited by author 2005-08-22 16:27:00.

Ivo

08/22/2005 04:35:07 PM · #46

Originally posted by mesmeraj:

I was referring to this: an image has to be appealing to capture my interest and if it happens to be of a nude, it has to be an appealing nude

I believe that you are referring to my quote and it's clearly evident that you have taken offence. I'm curious as to what compels you to conclude the appeal of a nude photo is primarily stimulated by sexuality. Is it possible that form can stimulate appeal? This is made clear by most who would place greater value upon the cute duck vs the ugly turkey. They are both unique and special in their own form yet we choose to place greater value on what we view as beautiful. It is neither wrong nor right and does not require justification. It simply is what it is by our own choice, influences and taste. You have chosen to maintain a defensive posture toward form based appeal in nude photos. If those appeal to you, that is your choice. I hope you enjoy them.

barndog

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

08/22/2005 04:36:36 PM · #47

I must say the comments I have received so far have been really helpful. My pic is not doing great but the commenters have told me technically why this is the case. They have commented on what they would have done technically different and it has been extemely helpful.