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08/21/2005 05:02:17 AM · #51
EDITED FOR SPELLING AND MORE CLARITY THROUGH ADDED EXAMPLES AND METAPHORS, not all in capitals, so watch out for the new stuff :-)

Punk 59, your nickname alone states that you're a rebel, which I think is cool, which sets you apart from the redneck Fetor is ;-)

Did I ever call ALL AMERICANS rednecks in my posts?

HELL NO!

If you think I did, go to the start of the post and READ everything your fellow Americans, not some dude from abroad, who doesn't have a clue, has to say.

What I'm trying to say is that you, the American people, at least the well educated and informed part, HAS A CHOICE!

BUT YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE TO BOYCOTT BUSH.

SAY NO TO WAR, ALL OF YOU

and he won't know who to send off to war.

He'll bring the draft back and that's when you can choose even more.

Choose to run,
choose to hide,
choose to listen to Springsteen's "Born to run", "The River", "Hometown", "Bobby Jean" and "Born in the USA" all over again.

Springsteen has something to say.
He's interested in you, he loves his fellow Americans and his country.

Bush isn't and Bush doesn't, or he wouldn't be screwing up your economy as well as your (AND OUR, GLOBAL!) environment, remeber, ONE PLANET for ALL OF US, THAT'S IT. PERIOD.

It doesn't matter WHO will screw it up, Osama, Saddam, Puttin or Bush, because we, ALL OF US HUMANS (Libertée,Egalitée, Fraternitée, - that's FRENCH revolution, Fetor, not Bushies idea, not American forefathers and founders of your great nation, it was the friggin' FRENCH! so calling the French Fries "Freedom Fries" just proved to the world how IGNORANT AND STUPID some people in DC are...), will be the ones suffering.

And Bush still thinks that he can get away by flying to the Moon or to Mars, when NASA can barely guarantee that the outdated, crappy old Shuttle won't explode when it re-enters the atmosphere. While Russia and China fly to the ISS with NEW, HIGH-TECH material that guarantees their astronauts safety.

Would you drive cross country in a 1936 Ford T or a 1999 Chevrolet Corvette if you could choose? Would you give the T new wheels, new windows, airbags, better seats, an AC and a new engine and thus invest 10.000 dollars into a heap of crap or would you dish out eight grand and buy a perfectly healthy Corvette that has all these features built in?

That's what Bush is doing and that's where NASA is so dead wrong. That's why it's the Japanese and Chinese who dance on your noses when it comes to building innovative cars like the Toyota Prius. That's why Toyota is going to lure buyers away from American gas-guzzling SUVs by introducing a hybrid version of its own SUV.

Jesus, don't you get any of that, Fetor?

You do? Then I'll have to stop calling you an ignorant redneck. If you don't, I'll keep pissing on YOU, not your counbtry, because that proves to me that YOU are a stupid, ignorant, lost soul REDNECK.

so why should you help HIM, Bush, out, PUNK59?

because that's EXACTLY what you're doing by going to HIS war.

Have you suffered ANY more terrorist attacks ON HOME SOIL since 9/11/2001??

Have we, Europeans, felt the backlash of radical muslims over here?

You bet we have: Madrid, London, Turkey, Egypt, Bali - bombs in OUR vacation destinations, not your backyard, FETOR, right outside OUR doorstep. Madrid and London are closer to MY home than NYC will ever be to YOUR home or ANY REDNECK'S home for that matter.

AND at LEAST 80% of people in NEW YORK CITY AND Washington DC voted to OUST BUSH.

NOW WHO THE HECK ARE YOU CALLING IGNORANT, YOU LITTLE PRICK??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Get over your bush-shit attitudes and start thinking like the smart human beings you have the potential to be.

Ask Bush questions, uncomfortable questions, just like I asked and will keep asking Fetor.

He'll either give you answers that prove you right or he'll run and hide. Either way, he won't talk you into FEAR anymore.

Don't be afraid, kick this idiots A$$ out of the White House.

There's HOPE for America, YOU ARE NOT A DUMB COUNTRY.

I never said ANYTHING like that.

Go back and READ instead of assuming!

Still don't believe me, FETOR? Go back and read EVERYONE'S earlier posts, from start to finish, including those speeches and metaphorical song lyrics, if you know oh so well what metaphors are...

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 05:47:28.
08/21/2005 05:35:00 AM · #52
A rebel?

maybe once upon a time when i was younger ^.^

but comes a time where a person need sot think about the future,the saving my friends from war wasnt the only reason i joined the military, also got money for college "wich is dead hard to come by in the country without proper associations".

I do have to say one thing, and this is not meant to be in offense to anything, but in the event of a draft, the majority of americans do not have the option to simply retreat from it, its considered treason in this country to desert the draft, not everyone can afford to have a capital crime on there record, and the U.S government will flex its muscles to prosicute every last one of them, in that event rioting may occure it could even decline to the point of martial law being declared, in wich case american soldiers are pitted against american people, then it would be us killing us, not a a sensible resolution to anything, sadly, in the current state of the world, the general attitude is, you do what you have to, its impossible for a free spirited screw athority down with your rules i wont die for your causes person to survive in a country that is run by capatilists and buericrats such as america.

i do have hope for the future how ever, when my generation is in office and in congress, we are not the narrowminded people we used to be, infact the majority of youth isnt politicaly/religiously oriented, most of us have are voice and are going to use it, but we cant do anything from the streets, until there are open minded ears running this country, openminded idea's will fall silent.

until then however, me as well as fetor, will do what we must to ensure the survival of those minds and those words, by not sending them off to war, im not sure if that makes sense, it did when i thought it up ^.^

and i assure you Fetor is no redneck, just a man defending his beliefes and views, as i would expect any one to do.

By the way, springsteen is the boss, that man can literaly play a 4 hour show without stopping for breath, as a fellow musician i apreciate him definitly a brave man in the world of evils he was in his time. and one hell of a performer ^.^ .

while i do apreciate the message you are trying to send, and there are some of your points i do agree with, things are not always so simple, but you are right about one thing, we all havea choice every one, ive made mine, fetor has made his, and many other young americans will make the same one, and hopefully somday we wont have to.

EDIT:: please excuse the grammatical erros and the run on sentances, its 2:30 AM and i should really go to bed -_-

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 05:39:31.
08/21/2005 05:52:18 AM · #53
wow, punk, what a great post!

I see that you DO think and you DO see that you have a choice.

Fetor doesn't.

However, he went to bed, I guess and so did you. I, on the other hand, should really have breakfast now. Have been up for five hours now, trying to talk sense into Fetor and got so excited about it all that I forgot to eat :-D

Yes, Fetor, breakfast, because I'm about 7 hours ahead of you. But you knew that, right? You're educated after all, or so you claim, anyway...

Signing off for now,
Bruce aka Bruno aka beegee
08/21/2005 09:13:53 AM · #54
my statement was from my experience with people i work with...they are no longer enlisted and can say whatever...like i said they chose to enlist. I'm not saying they deserve everything that comes there way, but they know what comes with the job.

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

This thread is a breath of fresh air!!!

Queenbeez...
As far as military personel not complaining, well first of all, some are and have gone awol not to fight in an immoral war. Secondly, you won't hear what most military personnel are truly thinking because they are taught to follow orders and it's very dangerous to dissent. It could get you in a heap of trouble, and maybe even get physically hurt by your fellow soldiers ("friendly fire"). When in dangerous territory, such as Iraq, you are relying heavily on fellow military personnel and you would be insane to jeapordize your well being by dissenting.


08/21/2005 09:54:29 AM · #55
Cory & Joseph, I personally want to thank you for the sacrifice you are making.

Cory, you are definitely opinionated. Although I don't agree with your viewpoint, I find it refreshing to know there are young people out there who are passionate about our country. It scares me to think of the apathy in America. I have a sense that a majority of young people have little interest in current affairs.
08/21/2005 10:15:51 AM · #56
Originally posted by Fetor:


and why is bush in the wrong? this is no different than when the japanese attacked us at pearl harbor during ww2. we got atacked and then defended our freedom, are you gonna say that Franklin D. Roosevelt was in the wrong? oh my how you are uninformed.

Excuse me,but there is a BIG difference...When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor,we retaliated against the Perpetrator..Hussein and Iraq had absolutely NOTHING to do with the terrorist attacks on 9/11...Dubya lied to us right from the start to promote his personal agenda,and 1000s of innocent lives have been lost because of it..
08/21/2005 10:22:27 AM · #57
Originally posted by Fetor:


and why is bush in the wrong? this is no different than when the japanese attacked us at pearl harbor during ww2. we got atacked and then defended our freedom, are you gonna say that Franklin D. Roosevelt was in the wrong? oh my how you are uninformed.



how is this anything like pearl harbor? it's been proven time and time again that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. this would have been like the US invading venezuela because the japanese bombed pearl harbor.



please keep the name-calling to a bare minimum. feel free to shout and rant all you want, but do not make personal attacks.
08/21/2005 10:55:14 AM · #58
Originally posted by Fetor:

beegee, you need to choke on your spaghetti
how can you judge our country when youve only been here a little while?
and mel gibsons movie was almost 100% straight out of the Bible, he wasnt promting violence, he wasnt promoting hate, gosh how stupid do you have to be to see he was telling the story of Jesus's crucifixion?

and yes the 9/11 inncodent was intended to be on america, DUH!!!!@#!!@
who in thier own mind thinks this? "oh im gonna attack america to make everyone paranoid about terrorist so they cause thier own self destruction" nobody, nobody except you
i suggest you leave your wrong theories to yourself and quit fueling the fire

and stop posting music lyrics! no body wants to read them


How does one defend the Bible and wish death upon someone in the same paragraph? This perfectly illustrates the contradictions that put me off of Christianity in the first place.

The "Kill in the name of morality" attitude that comes from the mouths of conservative extremists really scares me. I believe that these people have lost touch with their humanity.

It's a tragedy that so many people will have died before Bush supporters begin to accept that they were misled. If a Democratic president had done this, impeachment hearings would be underway right now.

At least now I can state my opinion. In the beginning I wouldn't dare say what I thought for fear of being bombarded with senseless rhetoric.
08/21/2005 11:16:20 AM · #59
Originally posted by BeeGee:

SUPPORT GORE, HILLARY, ANYONE S M A R T WHO STANDS UP FOR HIS OR HER PEOPLE!

PLEASE, I BEG YOU!

Thank you, in the name of the REST OF THE WORLD.

Bruno


...I'm gonna go throw up now.
Gore is a mad man, fueled by bitterness. He has no personality, no character. Hillary is and always has been a mess. If you want to uncover corruption, take a close look into her past and dealings. If you like them so much, please offer them citizenship and take them home with you!
JD
08/21/2005 03:16:44 PM · #60
Heres a stranger voicing his oppinion. Some corrupted youth in the center of America. Some stereotypical slave under President George W. Bush's clearly satanic rule. Is that how you want me to introduce myself, BeeGee.

Last night, roughly before midnight, a second stranger (even to me), gave me a ride home from a party I was at. We talked of things. Somehow oppinions got involved, then more directly, America and our president. BeeGee, this is a direct post to you, but indirectly to everybody else. Take a moment to absorb this. You, me, Fetor, Punk59, and every other name known to everybody with a name, is simply a man or a woman. Simply a human. What you are doing, is trying to make it clearly evident that you are right, that you are more intelligent than Fetor or whoever, by reinforcing your own oppinions with songs by dutch bands and modern singers.

What you have to understand is this, you are no god, no diety, no mythological something. Your oppinion is simply your own, and since we are race of free thinking creatures, we are entitled to our own. What President Bush is doing, is defending his own friggin' oppinions, in his idealogy he is preserving liberty. I mean, be absolutely honest, do you truly beleive President Bush is trying to go out of his way to destroy the American way of life? Do you think President Bush wants to go postal and nuke every prairie that might harbour an insect that might one day become a dictator and create weapons of mass destruction.

Take a moment and pretend you are 'an uneducated American', look beyond your beleifs for just one moment. This is what the stranger told me. "You have to look beyond just your own oppinions. You have to be able to look at two sides of the argument. If you simply state your beleifs and support them, with doing nothing else other than considering your opponent as a weaker subject, then you are a dangerous man. Bush beleives what he is doing is right. Bush is sending our troops to fight and die for what he beleives is right. And he has the power to do so." And what I am saying is this, take a moment to consider others. You are calling Fetor ignorant, but I don't think you realize you and him are just rabbling on about your own beleifs, but instead of comparing and contrasting, you are both just trying to yell louder.

And come on, people, you're doing it on the internet. BeeGee, you are arguing with some one elses beliefs. You are calling him a stupid christian, but I really don't see why? He has faith in his own beliefs, and if you think that's illogical, I challenge you to beleive in God. People like you are fueled by logic and books. Your type stands out like a musician in a library. Oh yes, son, this is me being absolutely stereotypical. This is me instantly putting you in a class. This is me discriminating you, and putting a label on your forehead. You are the kind of person who requires logic, and sir, I see alot wrong with that.

To every person who can't accept the fact that there is a God or a Allah or a T'ien, I challenge you to go to Church just once. (And I challenge you because this site has challenge in the title, so the word keeps subliminally sticking in my mind. Hah, sorry.).

BeeGee, read a bible and pretend its fiction, read western history and pretend its just a story by the author of the month, or crack open a dictionary, and pretend its a book. Pretend, for just one moment, that you are wrong.

Fetor, pretend for just one moment, that this ignorant person is right. Accept the fact that he thinks you are wrong and give in. Thats all he wants to hear. Then hug your oppinions and remember that you beleive he is wrong.

Punk59, I used to post on chatarea with you back in the day. This has nothing to do with anything. Comic relief maybe.

Now we've heard my rant, all three of you reading this (because I doubt if I haven't mentioned your name, you aren't reading this), lets hear my oppinion on things. I am not an avid supporter of Bush, but I sure would have voted for him over Kerry (but for sh*ts and giggles, I may just have voted for Nader). I beleive that Bush is doing the right thing, according to Bush and his supporters. I beleive he will come through in these next three years. BeeGee, do you support the creation of weapons or the destruction of weapons? Do you support the destruction of weapons via the use of weapons? President Bush may have lied about why we went to Iraq, but we got results, did we not. Maybe not the results he promised, but we have in hands a dictator who could arguably be compared to Adolf Hitler (fun fact: Suddam Husein was also known for his gas chambers and his uncanny love for torture!).

Word on the American Street is that we are headed back to Asia to rid another country of nuclear weapons. Before I move on, I have a very moral-ridden question to ask everybody.

[a small infant has ebola, it will spread to a thousand more]
Do you kill an infant to save a thousand more?
Do you stand clear and watch a thousand infants die?
Do you deny the infants existence?

[a question about morality]

Whatever you answered, think of it this way. We go in and kill the bad guys and watch our good guys die, as everybody in between is slaughtered, at the threat of Global Destruction. We are killing our troops and their civilians, to prevent the destruction and slaughter of 10,000's upon 10,000's. Do you allow the threat of nuclear warfare to go on, or do you fight (kill) to make sure that threat is subsided?

I don't support Bush's policies on taxes or Bush's frequent vacations to his Texas Ranch, but I support the destruction of nuclear weapons, and the prevention of their creation. At all costs. Maybe that sentence will destroy my already shattered credibility, and I know I have overused the word destruction, but I don't care. I know you probably think I am just shitting out literature of tainted oppinions, and I'll be very surprised if anybody is still reading this (because in all honesty, when this much oppinion is soaked into this much text, I get bored), but I am still doing it.

Hmm. One last thing, BeeGee, it is very hard to take you seriously when you are capitalizing random words for emphasis like you do. This is a great example: "AND at LEAST 80% of people in NEW YORK CITY AND Washington DC voted to OUST BUSH.". If American-English is your second language, you are doing a very good job, (and no this is not a grammatical attack) but if not, the context of capital to lowercase is just confusing. You sound like a preacher preaching the word of god, emphasizing on such words as "EVIL" and "SIN".

The Truth about AntiThinker:
I don't know everything. I'm only 16 years old. I don't beleive in science anymore than I do religeon, any more than I'll beleive in you or logic. To me, true individualism is the way we should route; a race of creatures living in family packs and caves is where I see us in a thousand years. Logic, Religeon, Science, its just words internationally accepted as the general truth. My favorite kind of music is currently Indie Rock, and as of right now, my favorite band is either The Decemberists, or The Thermals. If you decide to bash me based on my age, go for it, but remember, you're insulting a minor, and if you get off to showering children with fear, I'll pretend I'm afraid. If you decide to bash my disbelief on all things logical, just remember that I hold what I beleive firmly, just like Fetor beleives in God, just like BeeGee beleives in Michael Moore. My name is Shawn Langhans, and I am an person who thoroughly rinses his hair when shampoo is present. I don't want to rant anymore, I am tired of this game.

Did anybody read all this? All of this is my oppinion, my voice, and my ideology. Excluding what the stranger in the car told me. Goodnight or good morning.

Edit 1: I fixed a sentence. I censored a word.
Edit 2: I think calling Fetor a redneck is just a sign of immaturity. In all honesty, Fetor is probably smarter than me. I am a 'C-' student (goodbye again, credibility), and I know he was a 'A' student. Just because you think our president isn't literate doesn't mean his 'disciples' aren't. And I really disagree with you pissing on American Troops. They are serving for their beliefs. The key words for this rant are 'BELIEF' and 'OPPINION'.

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 15:27:32.
08/21/2005 03:37:59 PM · #61
Originally posted by TheAntiThinker:

Heres a stranger voicing his oppinion. Some corrupted youth in the center of America. Some stereotypical slave under President George W. Bush's clearly satanic rule. Is that how you want me to introduce myself, BeeGee.

Last night, roughly before midnight, a second stranger (even to me), gave me a ride home from a party I was at. We talked of things. Somehow oppinions got involved, then more directly, America and our president. BeeGee, this is a direct post to you, but indirectly to everybody else. Take a moment to absorb this. You, me, Fetor, Punk59, and every other name known to everybody with a name, is simply a man or a woman. Simply a human. What you are doing, is trying to make it clearly evident that you are right, that you are more intelligent than Fetor or whoever, by reinforcing your own oppinions with songs by dutch bands and modern singers.

What you have to understand is this, you are no god, no diety, no mythological something. Your oppinion is simply your own, and since we are race of free thinking creatures, we are entitled to our own. What President Bush is doing, is defending his own friggin' oppinions, in his idealogy he is preserving liberty. I mean, be absolutely honest, do you truly beleive President Bush is trying to go out of his way to destroy the American way of life? Do you think President Bush wants to go postal and nuke every prairie that might harbour an insect that might one day become a dictator and create weapons of mass destruction.

Take a moment and pretend you are 'an uneducated American', look beyond your beleifs for just one moment. This is what the stranger told me. "You have to look beyond just your own oppinions. You have to be able to look at two sides of the argument. If you simply state your beleifs and support them, with doing nothing else other than considering your opponent as a weaker subject, then you are a dangerous man. Bush beleives what he is doing is right. Bush is sending our troops to fight and die for what he beleives is right. And he has the power to do so." And what I am saying is this, take a moment to consider others. You are calling Fetor ignorant, but I don't think you realize you and him are just rabbling on about your own beleifs, but instead of comparing and contrasting, you are both just trying to yell louder.

And come on, people, you're doing it on the internet. BeeGee, you are arguing with some one elses beliefs. You are calling him a stupid christian, but I really don't see why? He has faith in his own beliefs, and if you think that's illogical, I challenge you to beleive in God. People like you are fueled by logic and books. Your type stands out like a musician in a library. Oh yes, son, this is me being absolutely stereotypical. This is me instantly putting you in a class. This is me discriminating you, and putting a label on your forehead. You are the kind of person who requires logic, and sir, I see alot wrong with that.

To every person who can't accept the fact that there is a God or a Allah or a T'ien, I challenge you to go to Church just once. (And I challenge you because this site has challenge in the title, so the word keeps subliminally sticking in my mind. Hah, sorry.).

BeeGee, read a bible and pretend its fiction, read western history and pretend its just a story by the author of the month, or crack open a dictionary, and pretend its a book. Pretend, for just one moment, that you are wrong.

Fetor, pretend for just one moment, that this ignorant person is right. Accept the fact that he thinks you are wrong and give in. Thats all he wants to hear. Then hug your oppinions and remember that you beleive he is wrong.

Punk59, I used to post on chatarea with you back in the day. This has nothing to do with anything. Comic relief maybe.

Now we've heard my rant, all three of you reading this (because I doubt if I haven't mentioned your name, you aren't reading this), lets hear my oppinion on things. I am not an avid supporter of Bush, but I sure would have voted for him over Kerry (but for sh*ts and giggles, I may just have voted for Nader). I beleive that Bush is doing the right thing, according to Bush and his supporters. I beleive he will come through in these next three years. BeeGee, do you support the creation of weapons or the destruction of weapons? Do you support the destruction of weapons via the use of weapons? President Bush may have lied about why we went to Iraq, but we got results, did we not. Maybe not the results he promised, but we have in hands a dictator who could arguably be compared to Adolf Hitler (fun fact: Suddam Husein was also known for his gas chambers and his uncanny love for torture!).

Word on the American Street is that we are headed back to Asia to rid another country of nuclear weapons. Before I move on, I have a very moral-ridden question to ask everybody.

[a small infant has ebola, it will spread to a thousand more]
Do you kill an infant to save a thousand more?
Do you stand clear and watch a thousand infants die?
Do you deny the infants existence?

[a question about morality]

Whatever you answered, think of it this way. We go in and kill the bad guys and watch our good guys die, as everybody in between is slaughtered, at the threat of Global Destruction. We are killing our troops and their civilians, to prevent the destruction and slaughter of 10,000's upon 10,000's. Do you allow the threat of nuclear warfare to go on, or do you fight (kill) to make sure that threat is subsided?

I don't support Bush's policies on taxes or Bush's frequent vacations to his Texas Ranch, but I support the destruction of nuclear weapons, and the prevention of their creation. At all costs. Maybe that sentence will destroy my already shattered credibility, and I know I have overused the word destruction, but I don't care. I know you probably think I am just shitting out literature of tainted oppinions, and I'll be very surprised if anybody is still reading this (because in all honesty, when this much oppinion is soaked into this much text, I get bored), but I am still doing it.

Hmm. One last thing, BeeGee, it is very hard to take you seriously when you are capitalizing random words for emphasis like you do. This is a great example: "AND at LEAST 80% of people in NEW YORK CITY AND Washington DC voted to OUST BUSH.". If American-English is your second language, you are doing a very good job, (and no this is not a grammatical attack) but if not, the context of capital to lowercase is just confusing. You sound like a preacher preaching the word of god, emphasizing on such words as "EVIL" and "SIN".

The Truth about AntiThinker:
I don't know everything. I'm only 16 years old. I don't beleive in science anymore than I do religeon, any more than I'll beleive in you or logic. To me, true individualism is the way we should route; a race of creatures living in family packs and caves is where I see us in a thousand years. Logic, Religeon, Science, its just words internationally accepted as the general truth. My favorite kind of music is currently Indie Rock, and as of right now, my favorite band is either The Decemberists, or The Thermals. If you decide to bash me based on my age, go for it, but remember, you're insulting a minor, and if you get off to showering children with fear, I'll pretend I'm afraid. If you decide to bash my disbelief on all things logical, just remember that I hold what I beleive firmly, just like Fetor beleives in God, just like BeeGee beleives in Michael Moore. My name is Shawn Langhans, and I am an person who thoroughly rinses his hair when shampoo is present. I don't want to rant anymore, I am tired of this game.

Did anybody read all this? All of this is my oppinion, my voice, and my ideology. Excluding what the stranger in the car told me. Goodnight or good morning.

Edit 1: I fixed a sentence. I censored a word.
Edit 2: I think calling Fetor a redneck is just a sign of immaturity. In all honesty, Fetor is probably smarter than me. I am a 'C-' student (goodbye again, credibility), and I know he was a 'A' student. Just because you think our president isn't literate doesn't mean his 'disciples' aren't. And I really disagree with you pissing on American Troops. They are serving for their beliefs. The key words for this rant are 'BELIEF' and 'OPPINION'.


16 going on 60 :)
I did read it all, well said :)
08/21/2005 04:52:48 PM · #62
Originally posted by TheAntiThinker:



President Bush may have lied about why we went to Iraq, but we got results, did we not. Maybe not the results he promised, but we have in hands a dictator who could arguably be compared to Adolf Hitler (fun fact: Suddam Husein was also known for his gas chambers and his uncanny love for torture!).


So you're saying it's OK for the president to lie as long as it's necessary to get people to do what you want them to do? It sounds like he thought the Americans were not intelligent to make up their own mind, so he had to manipulate the truth. Perhaps you can help me understand why we are so concerned about a single dictator who had everything to lose by not playing our game? Saddam Hussein was/is a terrible man, but let's look around the world and talk about the atrocities that we choose to ignore. (Edit: I think it's an insult to the victims of the Holocaust to put Saddam Hussein on par with Hitler) What about genocide in Africa? What about Saudi Arabia...North Korea, China, Cuba? I wager that oppression felt by the general public in Iraq paled in comparison to the suffering that takes place all over this earth, every single day. Do you know how many children your age have spent years of their lives as sex slaves? More than anyone can count. Throw-away bodies for the pleasure of twisted individuals who care nothing for the value of a human life? Why aren't we trying to do something about that? Why are we "friends" with the Saudi sheiks who treat their women like property and use orphaned little boys as camel jockeys and sex slaves? Why aren't we attacking Saudi Arabia, since that's where so many of the 911 terrorists were from? What about the amuptees of Sierra Leone risking life and limb for money to eat so everyone else can parade around with diamonds?

Why Iraq? Why did we lose focus on Osama Bin Laden? Remember him? That's the guy who orchestrated 911. It was obvious to me that opening up Iraq would create a new hotbed for terrorism. How could the Bush administration not think of this? Why would they send our friends and loved ones into harm's way without a strategy, without equipment...put them in charge of prisoners without proper training? This war was "planned" yet they opted to make a pre-emptive strike without planning. Why? Is it because America put Saddam there and the sanctions were failing miserably? Possibly because we needed the oil, but it was making us look bad to starve so many people to get it? I guarantee there was a clear-cut reason for going to Iraq, it just wasn't the one they sold you.

And if we do need to address nuclear weapons in North Korea, who is going to do it? How many wars can we fight before we are out of soldiers and money?

I believe that if the American people were asked this question before the war, they might have chosen differently: "Considering that there's no evidence of WMD and Iraq was not involved in 911, how many Iraqis should die in order get rid of Saddam? How many Americans should die or be maimed? Would you send your children over there to die so that the Iraqi people can be free of the evil dictator? And after that, how many more people should we sacrifice in order to make the world a nicer place?"

The truth is that Bush knew he was lying to the US, but believed it was OK. After all, it wasn't like he was lying about whether or not he had an affair with an intern. I thought Clinton lacked integrity, but now he doesn't seem so bad.

And as long as we are talking about beliefs and opinions...Keep in mind that Muslim extremists believe that they are doing a holy thing, and we are the equivalent to satan in their opinion. My "belief" is that a country run by idealogy can be a very dangerous place. We should always be able to question things, and Bush took that away from us when he lied.

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 16:55:34.
08/21/2005 06:09:15 PM · #63
I appolgize for the personal attacks i made at 4 am last night, i was just fueled from bruce's remarks. but a lot of the stuff i stand by

and Shawn, you are a genious if i havent told you in the past.
PS this guy is the Joey Lawrence of writing

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 18:54:37.
08/21/2005 06:15:53 PM · #64
From the New York Times

The Swift Boating of Cindy Sheehan

By FRANK RICH (Op-Ed Columnist)
Published: August 21, 2005

CINDY SHEEHAN couldn't have picked a more apt date to begin the vigil that ambushed a president: Aug. 6 was the fourth anniversary of that fateful 2001 Crawford vacation day when George W. Bush responded to an intelligence briefing titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" by going fishing. On this Aug. 6 the president was no less determined to shrug off bad news. Though 14 marine reservists had been killed days earlier by a roadside bomb in Haditha, his national radio address that morning made no mention of Iraq. Once again Mr. Bush was in his bubble, ensuring that he wouldn't see Ms. Sheehan coming. So it goes with a president who hasn't foreseen any of the setbacks in the war he fabricated against an enemy who did not attack inside the United States in 2001.

When these setbacks happen in Iraq itself, the administration punts. But when they happen at home, there's a game plan. Once Ms. Sheehan could no longer be ignored, the Swift Boating began. Character assassination is the Karl Rove tactic of choice, eagerly mimicked by his media surrogates, whenever the White House is confronted by a critic who challenges it on matters of war. The Swift Boating is especially vicious if the critic has more battle scars than a president who connived to serve stateside and a vice president who had "other priorities" during Vietnam.

The most prominent smear victims have been Bush political opponents with heroic Vietnam résumés: John McCain, Max Cleland, John Kerry. But the list of past targets stretches from the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke to Specialist Thomas Wilson, the grunt who publicly challenged Donald Rumsfeld about inadequately armored vehicles last December. The assault on the whistle-blower Joseph Wilson - the diplomat described by the first President Bush as "courageous" and "a true American hero" for confronting Saddam to save American hostages in 1991 - was so toxic it may yet send its perpetrators to jail.

True to form, the attack on Cindy Sheehan surfaced early on Fox News, where she was immediately labeled a "crackpot" by Fred Barnes. The right-wing blogosphere quickly spread tales of her divorce, her angry Republican in-laws, her supposed political flip-flops, her incendiary sloganeering and her association with known ticket-stub-carrying attendees of "Fahrenheit 9/11." Rush Limbaugh went so far as to declare that Ms. Sheehan's "story is nothing more than forged documents - there's nothing about it that's real."

But this time the Swift Boating failed, utterly, and that failure is yet another revealing historical marker in this summer's collapse of political support for the Iraq war.

When the Bush mob attacks critics like Ms. Sheehan, its highest priority is to change the subject. If we talk about Richard Clarke's character, then we stop talking about the administration's pre-9/11 inattentiveness to terrorism. If Thomas Wilson is trashed as an insubordinate plant of the "liberal media," we forget the Pentagon's abysmal failure to give our troops adequate armor (a failure that persists today, eight months after he spoke up). If we focus on Joseph Wilson's wife, we lose the big picture of how the administration twisted intelligence to gin up the threat of Saddam's nonexistent W.M.D.'s.

The hope this time was that we'd change the subject to Cindy Sheehan's "wacko" rhetoric and the opportunistic left-wing groups that have attached themselves to her like barnacles. That way we would forget about her dead son. But if much of the 24/7 media has taken the bait, much of the public has not.

The backdrops against which Ms. Sheehan stands - both that of Mr. Bush's what-me-worry vacation and that of Iraq itself - are perfectly synergistic with her message of unequal sacrifice and fruitless carnage. Her point would endure even if the messenger were shot by a gun-waving Crawford hothead or she never returned to Texas from her ailing mother's bedside or the president folded the media circus by actually meeting with her.

The public knows that what matters this time is Casey Sheehan's story, not the mother who symbolizes it. Cindy Sheehan's bashers, you'll notice, almost never tell her son's story. They are afraid to go there because this young man's life and death encapsulate not just the noble intentions of those who went to fight this war but also the hubris, incompetence and recklessness of those who gave the marching orders.

Specialist Sheehan was both literally and figuratively an Eagle Scout: a church group leader and honor student whose desire to serve his country drove him to enlist before 9/11, in 2000. He died with six other soldiers on a rescue mission in Sadr City on April 4, 2004, at the age of 24, the week after four American security workers had been mutilated in Falluja and two weeks after he arrived in Iraq. This was almost a year after the president had declared the end of "major combat operations" from the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln.

According to the account of the battle by John F. Burns in The Times, the insurgents who slaughtered Specialist Sheehan and his cohort were militiamen loyal to Moktada al-Sadr, the anti-American Shiite cleric. The Americans probably didn't stand a chance. As Mr. Burns reported, members of "the new Iraqi-trained police and civil defense force" abandoned their posts at checkpoints and police stations "almost as soon as the militiamen appeared with their weapons, leaving the militiamen in unchallenged control."

Yet in the month before Casey Sheehan's death, Mr. Rumsfeld typically went out of his way to inflate the size and prowess of these Iraqi security forces, claiming in successive interviews that there were "over 200,000 Iraqis that have been trained and equipped" and that they were "out on the front line taking the brunt of the violence." We'll have to wait for historians to tell us whether this and all the other Rumsfeld propaganda came about because he was lied to by subordinates or lying to himself or lying to us or some combination thereof.

As The Times reported last month, even now, more than a year later, a declassified Pentagon assessment puts the total count of Iraqi troops and police officers at 171,500, with only "a small number" able to fight insurgents without American assistance. As for Moktada al-Sadr, he remains as much a player as ever in the new "democratic" Iraq. He controls one of the larger blocs in the National Assembly. His loyalists may have been responsible for last month's apparently vengeful murder of Steven Vincent, the American freelance journalist who wrote in The Times that Mr. Sadr's followers had infiltrated Basra's politics and police force.

Casey Sheehan's death in Iraq could not be more representative of the war's mismanagement and failure, but it is hardly singular. Another mother who has journeyed to Crawford, Celeste Zappala, wrote last Sunday in New York's Daily News of how her son, Sgt. Sherwood Baker, was also killed in April 2004 - in Baghdad, where he was providing security for the Iraq Survey Group, which was charged with looking for W.M.D.'s "well beyond the admission by David Kay that they didn't exist."

As Ms. Zappala noted with rage, her son's death came only a few weeks after Mr. Bush regaled the Radio and Television Correspondents' Association banquet in Washington with a scripted comedy routine featuring photos of him pretending to look for W.M.D.'s in the Oval Office. "We'd like to know if he still finds humor in the fabrications that justified the war that killed my son," Ms. Zappala wrote. (Perhaps so: surely it was a joke that one of the emissaries Mr. Bush sent to Cindy Sheehan in Crawford was Stephen Hadley, the national security adviser who took responsibility for allowing the 16 errant words about doomsday uranium into the president's prewar State of the Union speech.)

Mr. Bush's stand-up shtick for the Beltway press corps wasn't some aberration; it was part of the White House's political plan for keeping the home front cool. America was to yuk it up, party on and spend its tax cuts heedlessly while the sacrifice of an inadequately manned all-volunteer army in Iraq was kept out of most Americans' sight and minds. This is why the Pentagon issued a directive at the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom forbidding news coverage of "deceased military personnel returning to or departing from" air bases. It's why Mr. Bush, unlike Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter, has not attended funeral services for the military dead. It's why January's presidential inauguration, though nominally dedicated to the troops, was a gilded $40 million jamboree at which the word Iraq was banished from the Inaugural Address.

THIS summer in Crawford, the White House went to this playbook once too often. When Mr. Bush's motorcade left a grieving mother in the dust to speed on to a fund-raiser, that was one fat-cat party too far. The strategy of fighting a war without shared national sacrifice has at last backfired, just as the strategy of Swift Boating the war's critics has reached its Waterloo before Patrick Fitzgerald's grand jury in Washington. The 24/7 cable and Web attack dogs can keep on sliming Cindy Sheehan. The president can keep trying to ration the photos of flag-draped caskets. But this White House no longer has any more control over the insurgency at home than it does over the one in Iraq.

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 18:17:33.
08/21/2005 06:23:45 PM · #65
Let's see, trump up false intelligence reports to create an excuse for war in an oil-rich far-off land, intimate that American troops will really just be "advisors" to the homegrown troops, get bogged-down in a war of insurgency where you can't tell friend from foe, slowly have the public realize the degree of fraud perpetrated by its government and demand an end to the unjustified hostilities, President caught in lies and coverups ...

You'd think that Mr. Bush would have learned the lessons of Viet Nam ... oh wait -- I remember now, he skipped that war.
08/21/2005 06:45:55 PM · #66
Thank you for posting the article, GeneralE. It was an interesting read.
08/21/2005 06:49:42 PM · #67
Originally posted by milo655321:

Thank you for posting the article, GeneralE. It was an interesting read.

You're welcome -- I know some people don't like to have to register to read an article. I also figured I wouldn't have to spell-check it for explitives : )
08/21/2005 06:49:48 PM · #68
Yes, very interesting. The fog is slowly lifting.
08/21/2005 06:53:03 PM · #69
As the mother of fetor I am pretty ashamed of his posts. I think he really ruined his reputation on dpchallenge and his grammatical errors are unforgivable. However, I must say that I hate war as much as the next guy including beegee, Michal Moore,Susan Sarandon, The Dixie Chicks and Barbara Striesand. But war is a necessary evil.

We can all agree that Saddam needed to be removed from power as he had a strong foothold of unethical leadership in that part of the world. Removing him was a good thing. Any arguments on that?

The liberal media portrays its agenda and sensationalizes news to make it appear that our efforts are a waste there. Casualties of war are common and necessary. If there are those willing, let them go. It keeps those who aren't willing in their comfort zones. (Thank a soldier for that freedom).

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and I personally am a staunch conservative with Biblical values, but I am also sick of this war. I don't feel it was handled properly, but then I have to pose the question, have everything we done in our lives handled properly? How many things would you have done differently if you could go back in time? Pretty much everything right? LOL

I support Bush, I dont like the war on Iraq, but good things have come of his skewed methods of reasoning. Either way. We all want it to be over...Pray at nite so this will end soon, rather than later.

Sorry if there are alot of typos or sentences that don't make sense. I have alot of distractions in my house here at the moment.

Big political debates are pointless. Nobody is going to change their viewpoint because of anything that happens here on this forum. And honestly, its not OUR opinions that matter, but rather those of our leaders and the Creator of the Universe.

Peace everyone.

08/21/2005 07:03:02 PM · #70
Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

... But war is a necessary evil.

Not this one.
Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

We can all agree that Saddam needed to be removed from power as he had a strong foothold of unethical leadership in that part of the world. Removing him was a good thing. Any arguments on that?

Not at the cost of a government lying to its people and the world, and undermining our legitimacy as a political, moral, and economic leader in the new world order.

This war is all about economic oligarchs solidifying their grip on the world's economy, and political control over the vast masses of the disadvantaged and disenfranchised. Their methods are transparent to anyone with the least grasp of history, and are as ethically vacuous and selfishly misanthropic as that of any despot you care to name.
08/21/2005 07:14:37 PM · #71
NY Times Editorial (reprinted)
08/21/2005 07:15:12 PM · #72
Our legitamacy was questioned prior to our invasion of Iraq.

No matter what this country does it is hated. Thus explaining the attack on the twin towers and other terroristic attacks prior to.

One other thought. American Citizens cannot be held accountable for the actions of their leaders. Even the president is advised by Military experts and other 'experts' in all areas of advisory. He just weighs out the choices and picks one. Which is what any leader does (unless its a Monarchy, Dictator or Communist).

I am really tired of the bashing of our president and his choices though. During the Clinton years, I never scoffed at or criticized his choices or behavior in the White house. It would sure be nice if there were less aggression and overt opinions in this thread.

Oh I forgot. Men like to fight. LOL

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 19:16:48.
08/21/2005 07:18:33 PM · #73
I wouldn't be too ashamed of your son. I can think of a lot worse things a teenager could be doing than defending his political beliefs on a photography website. It hasn't affected my respect for him as a bright, enthusiastic photographer. I think I would be proud to have a kid like him (a little more moderate, of course;). I'm not a believer in organized religion, but I still believe in the grand force that makes this universe go. So I will be praying for your family as he serves our country.

I would like to clarify one thing that seems to be regulary assumed. Perhaps I am the only one that feels this way, but do not and never did think it was cost-effective to remove Saddam Hussein from power, as such. Sure the world is better without him, and it would be even better without Castro and Kim Jong II. But can really really afford to get rid of everyone who isn't nice? And how would we prevent new dictators from springing up? I still believe we could have found another way to disable him. For me the end does not justify the means.

Personally, I'm not sure big political debates are really useless. It was the excitement of these disagreements that piqued my interest in current events when I was young. If one apathetic person becomes curious and begins to ask questions...it was worth it to me.

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 19:30:31.
08/21/2005 07:21:51 PM · #74
greatandsmall-

Not ashamed of my son or his beliefs (I taught him from the cradle)
Just ashamed of his word choices, profanity and personal insults toward beegee....Thats what I meant.

08/21/2005 07:22:37 PM · #75
Debating diverting opinions in order to arrive at a consensus is the avoidance of conflict. Please don't paint all men with the same brush -- the President and his minions may be war-mongers but I am not; I honorably and legally served my country through alternative service rather than kill innocent humans in an illegal and illegitimate war. I'm pretty sure Mr. Bush gets -- in addition to his salary, pending pensions from Texas and the US and Social Security -- military benefits which I do not. Mission accomplished.
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