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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Need pointers, indoor sports photography D70s.
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 08/13/2005 01:46:12 PM · #1
Hi everybody,
This is a rather open/broad question, but I would like some pointers to pass onto my sister. Here's the deal. She has a daughter that is very athletic and currently its Volleyball season. My sister is about to purchase a Nikon D70s mainly for photographing my nieces sporting events. I can't give her much advice as I suck at gym type photography still and I haven't done anything to improve on it.
Do you have advice for her regarding lens, aperture, filters, etc. for a non-photographer Mom just wanting some good shots of her daughter doing what she does best?
I've talked to her a bit about aperture and shutter speed, but I know she would benefit more hearing from someone who actually takes these sorts of photos with success.

(The guy at her local camera store was trying to convince her she needed a $1800.00 lens to take some good photos, she's looking for less expensive advice, lol thats the same guy that told her Nikon lens wouldn't fit any other camera though and uhhhhhhhh they fit mine)

Thanks in advance for any help!
~Laura

Message edited by author 2005-08-13 13:47:27.
 08/13/2005 01:57:54 PM · #2
while an $1800 lens would be likely better it's not necessary! I would suggest the 85mm 1.8 and depending on distance from the game, either a wider or narrower lens. A prime lens will give you the best results in low light provided it's a nice fast prime (lower than F2.8 usually). Pump up the iso to 800+ and keep the shutter over 1/200 if possible. I would suggest getting a flash... sb600/800 perhaps? I'm not familiar with the way the nikon flashes work vs canon, but I hear the nikon is actually better, if that's the case, you should be able to get good results with either. Any other specific questions you'd like to know about?
 08/13/2005 02:20:59 PM · #3
Originally posted by kyebosh:
while an $1800 lens would be likely better it's not necessary! I would suggest the 85mm 1.8 and depending on distance from the game, either a wider or narrower lens. A prime lens will give you the best results in low light provided it's a nice fast prime (lower than F2.8 usually). Pump up the iso to 800+ and keep the shutter over 1/200 if possible.

Agreed.

Personally I wouldn't use a flash.
 08/13/2005 02:33:37 PM · #4
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by kyebosh:
while an $1800 lens would be likely better it's not necessary! I would suggest the 85mm 1.8 and depending on distance from the game, either a wider or narrower lens. A prime lens will give you the best results in low light provided it's a nice fast prime (lower than F2.8 usually). Pump up the iso to 800+ and keep the shutter over 1/200 if possible.

Agreed.

Personally I wouldn't use a flash.


You might peeve some players by using flash. You should always ask if you do use a flash.
 08/13/2005 03:32:27 PM · #5
Thanks so much for your advice. I'll relay it all to her.
I may agree on the no flash as I believe my sister mentioned my Niece doesn't like her to be too obvious about videoing or photographing her as it distracts her from playing. (She's a new Freshman and plays Varsity Volleyball, just played at the Junior Olympics on her other team and the cross country coach wants her to be on his Varsity Team, might I say she ROCKS!)

If anyone else out there has experience with indoor sports photography, then by all means, keep the advice coming!

Thanks again to those of you that posted, I appreciate it!
 08/13/2005 03:37:35 PM · #6
She'll need a tripod too ;)

Edit: or a monopod

Message edited by author 2005-08-13 15:38:03.
 08/13/2005 04:37:00 PM · #7
Since she most likely will not be able to use a flash, I would also suggest a lens with the largest aperture she can afford. I shoot a lot of pictures at dog shows, (indoors & outdoors) and I chose the Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8D ED since I needed zoom. I paid a little under $900.00 for it at a local camera store. I didn't get the VR (Vibration reduction) version because I figured I could handhold a 200mm lens. The VR lets you use slower shutter speeds for handheld shots than without. I think the rule is about 2 steps slower. Helps to prevent blurred photos. 2 things I found: 1. Nikon D70's have a 1.5 multiplication factor for lenses. This means the lens is actually 300mm equivalent to 35mm film camera. 2. My hands are not as steady as they used to be. I may at some point decide to get the more expensive VR version (about 1500.00) to replace this lens. Overall, I love the lens. It is very sharp and fairly easy to get used to. I haven't used it too much for indoor shows, but have taken many pictures inside the house with good results. The lens is quite large, your sister is not going to "blend into the crowd" while using it. The version I got focuses pretty fast which is great for moving subjects like dogs. Hope this helps.

08/14/2005 10:09:15 AM · #8
Please remember that this is "action" photography. That means movement, like in photographing a waterfall or canoes/kayaks on a river. If the photographer wants stop action shots, then she will need a fast ISO as a minimum. Meaning ISO 400-800. Unless she in stationed directly courtside, a speedlight will be virtually useless. The easiest option for her is to set the camera selector to "sport/action" and shoot to her hearts content. She can also choose over-rides (like aperature priority) when the action is stopped as in the wait for the serve.

There are many lenses that could be used for this type of photography and still be useful for other photographic tasks, like vacations and family get togethers. Nikkor's 24-120 VR coupled with a monopod would be a solid performer at ISO 400-800 and the 80-400 VR might be aconsideration also. The 80-200 f/2.8 would serve well as would a single focal 50mm f/1.8.

I use a Sigma 50-500 Ex (around $1000 US but heavy) for Boy Scout Derby races inside a Gymnasiam as I do not know where I will be. I could be track side where the wider angles could be used or in the bleachers where I need all the reach I can get.

For the criteria mentioned, I think I would lean towards the 24-120 VR attached to a monopod, set in sport mode. I think she would be quite happy with the results.

Flash

Message edited by author 2005-08-14 10:11:26.
 08/14/2005 10:23:54 AM · #9
Any 1.4 to 1.8 lense will work. Most refs do not allow flashes either.



No Flash here. Go and look at some of the 1.4 and 1.8 galleries too.
 08/14/2005 10:30:08 AM · #10
Also, don't forget she can zoom in and crop the photo with some photo program. I do this with many shots, because it is easier to follow the ball that way. I would have her get a 1.4 to 1.8/ 50mm to 85mm, and she should have all she needs for any type of indoor sports without a flash. Shadows created by the flash destroy the element of being there, since one cannot setup remote flashes either.
 08/14/2005 10:30:53 AM · #11
85 mm 1.8, and 50 mm 1.8 are all I would bring, assuming you have the ability to move around a little bit. I think an 80-200 would be too long for a gym!
 08/14/2005 10:34:53 AM · #12
80-200 works well in the gym, but why use it when the action area will be limited. The most important tool after the lense is a good monopod for around $30. Sunpack makes a compact model that works well as long as the lenses are not big.This will help keep noise down in lowlight conditions without a flash.

Message edited by author 2005-08-14 10:37:21.
 08/14/2005 11:45:07 AM · #13
Originally posted by petrakka:
85 mm 1.8, and 50 mm 1.8 are all I would bring, assuming you have the ability to move around a little bit. I think an 80-200 would be too long for a gym!

Yep my 50/1.8 and 85/1.8 would definitely be in my bag. I'd likely take my 70-200/2.8 just in case it's reasonably bright, as well as my 28-70/2.8.

As for a monopod or tripod - I doubt it will have much positive impact on the shots. The fact is the subjects will likely be moving quicker than any hand vibrations. As such, a monopod/tripod won't help, because even if it stops the hand vibrations, you're still going to get soft shots. If the shutter is fast enough to stop the action, it's fast enough to compenstate for hand vibrations.
 08/14/2005 04:11:10 PM · #14
Recognize that shooting indoor sports action is entirely different than doing outdoor sports action. You'll need different equipment.

And indoor volleyball is not an easy sport to shoot as it's hard to get the really good vantage points even if you are credentialed. Most of your shots will be showing more backsides than faces.

Tripods and monopods are not useable to steady the camera in fast moving situations. The only time I use a monopod is outside. And it is to support the weight of the heavier, longer focal length lenses, not to steady the camera against shake.
08/14/2005 11:57:49 PM · #15
Oh wow, I somehow thought this thread had died out yesterday then just happened to notice there was more advice! Thanks so much. I'm glad to hear about the 50mm being "useable" as I have one of those that she can even try out to see if she wants one. Wonderful! I'll look at the 85mm as well.
Once again, thank you all for the advice. I knew indoor sports must have totally different things to consider as I have taken plenty of blurred yellowish gym photos myself :) Outdoor sports I do fine with.
Fortunately my sister will get plenty of opportunities to take photos of her daughter as she has plenty of games left!
 08/15/2005 12:18:03 AM · #16
Originally posted by Flash:
Please remember that this is "action" photography. That means movement, like in photographing a waterfall or canoes/kayaks on a river. If the photographer wants stop action shots, then she will need a fast ISO as a minimum. Meaning ISO 400-800. Unless she in stationed directly courtside, a speedlight will be virtually useless. The easiest option for her is to set the camera selector to "sport/action" and shoot to her hearts content. She can also choose over-rides (like aperature priority) when the action is stopped as in the wait for the serve.

There are many lenses that could be used for this type of photography and still be useful for other photographic tasks, like vacations and family get togethers. Nikkor's 24-120 VR coupled with a monopod would be a solid performer at ISO 400-800 and the 80-400 VR might be aconsideration also. The 80-200 f/2.8 would serve well as would a single focal 50mm f/1.8.

I use a Sigma 50-500 Ex (around $1000 US but heavy) for Boy Scout Derby races inside a Gymnasiam as I do not know where I will be. I could be track side where the wider angles could be used or in the bleachers where I need all the reach I can get.

For the criteria mentioned, I think I would lean towards the 24-120 VR attached to a monopod, set in sport mode. I think she would be quite happy with the results.

Flash


Please note that the sigma 50-500EX is a 6.3 lens and will usually not be fast enough for indoor photography with ambient lighting only.
 08/15/2005 12:22:46 AM · #17
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Originally posted by Flash:
Please remember that this is "action" photography. That means movement, like in photographing a waterfall or canoes/kayaks on a river. If the photographer wants stop action shots, then she will need a fast ISO as a minimum. Meaning ISO 400-800. Unless she in stationed directly courtside, a speedlight will be virtually useless. The easiest option for her is to set the camera selector to "sport/action" and shoot to her hearts content. She can also choose over-rides (like aperature priority) when the action is stopped as in the wait for the serve.

There are many lenses that could be used for this type of photography and still be useful for other photographic tasks, like vacations and family get togethers. Nikkor's 24-120 VR coupled with a monopod would be a solid performer at ISO 400-800 and the 80-400 VR might be aconsideration also. The 80-200 f/2.8 would serve well as would a single focal 50mm f/1.8.

I use a Sigma 50-500 Ex (around $1000 US but heavy) for Boy Scout Derby races inside a Gymnasiam as I do not know where I will be. I could be track side where the wider angles could be used or in the bleachers where I need all the reach I can get.

For the criteria mentioned, I think I would lean towards the 24-120 VR attached to a monopod, set in sport mode. I think she would be quite happy with the results.

Flash


Please note that the sigma 50-500EX is a 6.3 lens and will usually not be fast enough for indoor photography with ambient lighting only.


Noted :)


Message edited by author 2005-08-15 00:47:46.
 08/15/2005 12:28:59 AM · #18
I'd agree with the Nikon 24-120 VR as the best option and it will give her a good all around lens on top of it.

I now use my Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED
and it is great but heavy and expensive. Before that I used a cheap Tamorn AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical and had to up the ISO to at least 800 to keep the speed up. This worked in pro areanas where the lite was good but high school gyms the light is dimmer so I had some problems there.

Message edited by author 2005-08-15 00:30:25.
 08/15/2005 08:41:37 AM · #19
Originally posted by kyebosh:
Please note that the sigma 50-500EX is a 6.3 lens and will usually not be fast enough for indoor photography with ambient lighting only.


Good point. Some compensation for this can be made via a faster ISO. I believe the sport/action setting on the D70 defaults to either a 400 or 800 speed.

Fast glass or higher ISO. Sometimes both are required. A 50mm is essential in a toolbox.
 08/15/2005 08:52:21 AM · #20
Please bear in mind when shooting action that Canon IS and Nikon VR do not help stabilise the image.
 08/15/2005 08:14:45 PM · #21
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Please bear in mind when shooting action that Canon IS and Nikon VR do not help stabilise the image.


True enough. The VR is not the issue here as much as the reach and range along with the F2.8. You still need to keep your shutter speeds up. The 2.8 allows that at lower ISO's. The reach is needed because she may not always be able to be on the sidelines but have to shoot from the stands.
 08/15/2005 08:24:41 PM · #22
You can also underexpose by 1-2 stops if you are shooting RAW. I had to do that this weekend at MCI center as I was already at ISO800 and 1600 doesn't leave me with a useable image. With 2 stops I got my speed to a workable 1/400 on a 70-300 F5.6 lens at 300MM.

d
 08/15/2005 08:32:46 PM · #23
Originally posted by dahkota:
You can also underexpose by 1-2 stops if you are shooting RAW. I had to do that this weekend at MCI center as I was already at ISO800 and 1600 doesn't leave me with a useable image. With 2 stops I got my speed to a workable 1/400 on a 70-300 F5.6 lens at 300MM.

d

I think you should do a little test... Take a shot with iso 1600, take the same shot at 800 and underexpose it by a full stop. Push the iso 800 and compair then. I find that underexposing was just as bad as bumping the iso almost always. You never want to underexpose on purpose.
 08/16/2005 12:36:11 PM · #24
Originally posted by 2Shay:
Since she most likely will not be able to use a flash, I would also suggest a lens with the largest aperture she can afford. I shoot a lot of pictures at dog shows, (indoors & outdoors) and I chose the Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8D ED since I needed zoom. I paid a little under $900.00 for it at a local camera store. I didn't get the VR (Vibration reduction) version because I figured I could handhold a 200mm lens. The VR lets you use slower shutter speeds for handheld shots than without. I think the rule is about 2 steps slower. Helps to prevent blurred photos. 2 things I found: 1. Nikon D70's have a 1.5 multiplication factor for lenses. This means the lens is actually 300mm equivalent to 35mm film camera. 2. My hands are not as steady as they used to be. I may at some point decide to get the more expensive VR version (about 1500.00) to replace this lens. Overall, I love the lens. It is very sharp and fairly easy to get used to. I haven't used it too much for indoor shows, but have taken many pictures inside the house with good results. The lens is quite large, your sister is not going to "blend into the crowd" while using it. The version I got focuses pretty fast which is great for moving subjects like dogs. Hope this helps.


What a coincidence. I called my sister this morning to give her all the info about shooting sports indoors that all of you were nice enough to provide me. She's ordering her camera today and also had decided she was ordering a Nikon 80-200 2.8 ED! So, I guess she is doing a pretty good job of picking out a lens for a Sports Mom :)

I did fill her in on the 50mm and the 85mm too so she can have some other options. Also, I clued her in on all of the ISO and Shutter speed stuff everyone told me.

I can't wait to see her photos after she gets her hands on that new camera!

Thanks to all that offered advice. I'm going to take some of the advice myself too and try to take better photos of my kids school stuff that happens in the gym (Plays, speeches, talent show, etc.). I'm going to try it without the $900 lens though, lol, as gym photography will not be something I do often enough to invest that kind of money in.
 08/16/2005 12:51:55 PM · #25
This is a very interesting thread indeed, I happen to shoot a lot of sports events (inside and outside) because my friends ask me to. Looks like I won't be able to afford a f/2.8 lens anytime soon but luckily my sweet Nikon D50 works pretty good with ISO 1600. Sure gave my some guidelines what kind of Zoom I should put my future money into.
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