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08/12/2005 12:34:15 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Photo = apple blossom
Title = Eden
Era Depicted: that timeless period before The Fall
Sorry if I took someone's idea ... I'm making this up as I go ... : )
Nobody's arguing with anyone's right to vote any photo high or low by whatever you decide are valid criteria.
People are arguing about whether this is like a math test, where you are given a sheet of problems with (usually) only one right answer, or a creative fiction-writing assignment, where people can enjoy greater or lesser popularity but cannot be "wrong." |
That's why I think my solution fixes it. I've given my comment that I can't see (including considering the title) and if tney want to try and explain it then go for it. |
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08/12/2005 12:35:46 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
I find this very limiting, personally. Do you?
Robt. |
Only in my average score, although I find I get the same kind of mediocre results (sometimes worse) when I really hit the challenge topic with a sledge hammer, as when I try to be cute or creative or punny. |
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08/12/2005 12:36:48 PM · #28 |
Perhaps I should revise the steps:
1. View entry;
2. Accept the fact that others view the world differently than you;
2a. Optional: Have a beer;
3. Resist the temptation to post a thread proclaiming that rules should be instituted forcing others to enter photos that you see as meeting the challenge;
4. Vote your gut/heart/whatever works for you;
5. Realize that others are doing the same thing, in their own way;
5a. Optional: Have a beer;
6. Repeat until you feel like it;
7. Move the *%^! on and enjoy your life. Take some photos, maybe.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 12:38:01. |
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08/12/2005 12:37:37 PM · #29 |
I've been on this site for a year now, and love it.
IMO, I think that the challenges are great and that meeting the challenge is only part of the equation. If I submit a photo that is stretch to meet the challenge, but is technically and optically pleasing. I would expect not to get high votes, but get the things I cherrish more than votes (pause for the dramatic) COMMENTS.
Comments are where I learn and I will usually take the comments I receive and try them out on the picture. This helps me to learn. My biggest fear is not to get comments or very little comments (Which happens occasionally on a mediocre picture), because then I don't know what to do to make it better.
This is just my opinion, and all I want to do is take a picture that has the WOW Factor and that I can put on my wall and some go up and ask, I really like that, Where did you get it? And I can anwser, I took that picture. Thanks!!!
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08/12/2005 12:40:21 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by pgatt:
That's why I think my solution fixes it. I've given my comment that I can't see (including considering the title) and if tney want to try and explain it then go for it. |
Sure, although I don't know that you want to encourage people to PM you, at least during the challenge.
If I submit a photo with an oblique interpretation of the challenge, I expect some people to either not get it or not approve of it, and that's fine. Hopefully, there'll also be a couple of people who say "this made me laugh" or "I never thought of it like that" or something similar. |
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08/12/2005 12:44:34 PM · #31 |
How about this:
If you don't think a photo meets the challenge, then don't vote on it, and skip it.
If you're in the majority and your perspective on whether or not the shot meets the challenge is correct, AND if all the voters follow this potential voting "guideline" then that particular shot would get very few votes.
Perhaps SC could CONSIDER setting aside shots that receive fewer than a certain number of votes, labelling them as such, and stash them at the bottom of the pile? These shots aren't disqualified, but the voice of the majority would be clear: These shots, in the majority opinion, do not meet the challenge theme.
If you're not in the majority, then that's that.
It's just a thought. I do believe something like this would be more fair and less "edgy" than what are otherwise being tossed around.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 12:45:09.
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08/12/2005 12:44:34 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
People are arguing about whether this is like a math test, where you are given a sheet of problems with (usually) only one right answer, or a creative fiction-writing assignment, where people can enjoy greater or lesser popularity but cannot be "wrong." |
General, don't you see that if it's presented like a math test (via the challenge description leaving no wiggle room) nobody should surprised when it's treated like a math test? |
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08/12/2005 12:45:46 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by woutje:
Originally posted by rex:
While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly. |
rex's quote from the rules advice on voting tells it all. There is no limit on originality or creativity, but if a VOTER feels that the original or creative photo is outside of the bounds of the challenge, then it is the VOTER'S perogative to rank a photo with a low score.
For example, I may see a wonderful photo of a flower in the Time Capsule challenge, presented in a fantastic way both technically and artistically. If there were no further bounds than "Time Capsule" I might give it good consideration for meeting the challenge. But the Time Capsule challenge said "Take a shot that depicts an era in time. Your title should be the year that you are trying to capture for future generations." To me, this is a clear indication that a photo of a flower is not a specific era and therefore is not applicable to the challenge. I as the Voter get to put that view point into my ranking. If another voter doesn't agree with me, then they get to put their view point to the ranking of photos. |
Photo = apple blossom
Title = Eden
Era Depicted: that timeless period before The Fall
Sorry if I took someone's idea ... I'm making this up as I go ... : )
Nobody's arguing with anyone's right to vote any photo high or low by whatever you decide are valid criteria.
People are arguing about whether this is like a math test, where you are given a sheet of problems with (usually) only one right answer, or a creative fiction-writing assignment, where people can enjoy greater or lesser popularity but cannot be "wrong." |
Ahhh ... but in your example, couldn't I just as easily have titled that apple blossum "1962 - Good year for apple blossums"? For me, I would score it low because it is not representative of the time era. The more the photo, for that specific challenge, represents the time era they mention, the better the score under my PERSONAL viewpoint. Everyone else is welcome to have a different viewpoint and vote accordingly. |
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08/12/2005 12:48:04 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by rgo:
Perhaps SC could CONSIDER setting aside shots that receive fewer than a certain number of votes, labelling them as such, and stash them at the bottom of the pile? These shots aren't disqualified, but the voice of the majority would be clear: These shots, in the majority opinion, do not meet the challenge theme.
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This is essentially what happens already, withouth SC interference, is it not? You've just switched low vote for no vote. |
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08/12/2005 12:49:53 PM · #35 |
| Eh, it may not change my score, but at least tbey can get it off their chest if they feel really hard done by. Sometimes people have off-challenge photos because of the update-button addiction, or because they have a really nice photo they wanted to submit. They know it, they're not going to say anything. I'd prefer to be PM'ed during the challenge than someone feel ripped off, just because I missed it. Having said that, even after their explanation, if I don't feel the photo at all communicates the challenge to me, well I'm going to mark it down a bit anyways. |
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08/12/2005 12:50:00 PM · #36 |
Why do we have this identical discussion at the end of nearly every challenge (usually instigated by someone who didn't like the score they got)?? not meaning you, bear_music. you're obviously responding to the instigation of another thread entirely
The system works fine like it is. Voting will bear out what the voters thought with absolutely no modification of the site coding.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 12:51:59. |
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08/12/2005 12:50:33 PM · #37 |
The only time I see this issue flame up is when the challenge itself is poorly worded / ambiguous / brief.
If one decides to conciously push the envelope a bit,they choose to go that direction and will be rewarded or punished, depending on the voter and the quality of the photo.
If those who post the challenges were to tighten up the descriptions and make sure they synch up with the titles a little better, some of this friction could be eliminated.
And I'm not saying this to be critical - I know that the challenges are the suggestions made by the members and that they probably aren't all fully baked. I'm just suggesting that some additional wordsmithing would be a benefit to us all.
I really have enjoyed this site, and have to admit to have become a bit of an addict. It just gets a bit too intense at times. |
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08/12/2005 12:56:17 PM · #38 |
Personally I will not give a photograph that does not meet the challenge above a five regardless if the photograph is excellent or not. If the photographer is willing to go against the spirit of the challenge then he/she should be able to accept the vote they receive. Now that is if it clearly does not meat the challenge and after I have spent some time trying to see what the photographers vision was that made him/her think it meet the challenge. We must remember that meeting the challenge is not as simple as black and white; there is a lot of gray area there.
My feeling is if we are going to give out 6,7, 8, and 9̢۪s to photographs that we feel don̢۪t meet the challenge just because they are great and deserved a 10 if they would have meet the challenge then we should just have free studies all the time. And another thing to keep in mind, when you score a photograph that does not meet the challenge high marks you are telling the photographer that it̢۪s ok if you don̢۪t meet the challenge we will reward you for taking a great photograph. And over time we get to be we are at now, discussing issues like this. Sometime people need to learn more than just good skills; they need to learn to follow rules.
My 2墉€Â¦
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08/12/2005 01:04:46 PM · #39 |
| Who's going to be judge and jury of deciding if a given image does or does not meet the challenge? That can only rest in the hands of the voters. I see no reason for rule changes, but I will reiterate what I have stated in the past. Imo, I think it would be valuable for there to be a "does not meet the challenge" tick box that any voter can check. This would not detract from the score given, but merely express to the photographer one reason that a low score was given. This is merely for the benefit of the photographer to learn. |
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08/12/2005 01:05:34 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by rgo:
Perhaps SC could CONSIDER setting aside shots that receive fewer than a certain number of votes, labelling them as such, and stash them at the bottom of the pile? These shots aren't disqualified, but the voice of the majority would be clear: These shots, in the majority opinion, do not meet the challenge theme.
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This is essentially what happens already, withouth SC interference, is it not? You've just switched low vote for no vote. |
There is a crucial difference, I feel. The way it is now, a low score handed out by a voter because s/he feels the shot doesn't meet the challenge is a punishing vote. This is still registered as a punishing vote EVEN IF the voter is in the minority, and the majority of voters feel that the shot is within the bounds of the challenge theme.
A "no vote" simply tags the shot as one that the voter believes to be short of the challenge theme. If this voter is in the minority, the no vote is NOT punishing to the score of the image.
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08/12/2005 01:05:52 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by rgo:
Perhaps SC could CONSIDER setting aside shots that receive fewer than a certain number of votes, labelling them as such, and stash them at the bottom of the pile? These shots aren't disqualified, but the voice of the majority would be clear: These shots, in the majority opinion, do not meet the challenge theme.
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This is essentially what happens already, withouth SC interference, is it not? You've just switched low vote for no vote. |
Except for one thing, 'no vote' isn't considered in the average whereas a low vote is.
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08/12/2005 01:07:35 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by rgo:
Perhaps SC could CONSIDER setting aside shots that receive fewer than a certain number of votes, labelling them as such, and stash them at the bottom of the pile? These shots aren't disqualified, but the voice of the majority would be clear: These shots, in the majority opinion, do not meet the challenge theme.
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This is essentially what happens already, withouth SC interference, is it not? You've just switched low vote for no vote. |
Except for one thing, 'no vote' isn't considered in the average whereas a low vote is. |
Much more nicely put than my previous post. Thanks.
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08/12/2005 01:08:28 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
People are arguing about whether this is like a math test, where you are given a sheet of problems with (usually) only one right answer, or a creative fiction-writing assignment, where people can enjoy greater or lesser popularity but cannot be "wrong." |
General, don't you see that if it's presented like a math test (via the challenge description leaving no wiggle room) nobody should surprised when it's treated like a math test? |
But it's not phrased like a math test (see comments on "tightening the wording"), it's given as a somewhat broad topic open to a variety of interpretations.
Maybe the purpose is NOT to tighten things up the way many people suggest -- it occurs to me that, after this amount of time, if the people running the challenges wanted tightly-written ultra-restrictive challenges they'd write them.
That there is a consistent stream of topics open to broad interpretation leads me to believe that the "go for your creative vision" is closer to the intended goal, which is why I consistently advocate for rewarding the (well-done) unconventional approach.
============
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=86044
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=194062
Here's links to a few more (out of many more!) pages on this topic, one of which included the following post:
My dad used to tell a (probably apocryphal) story of a college professor and a "difficult" student, who was asked how they'd "determine the height of a certain tall campus building* using a barometer."
Answer #1 (rejected):
I'd tie a long rope to it and carefully lower it from the roof to the ground, and then measure how much rope was used.
Answer #2 (rejected):
I walk up the stairs and mark off successive "barometer-heights" which I'd count on the descending trip. Measuring the barometer and some simple multiplication should give the result.
Answer #3 (rejected):
I'd drop the barometer from the top of the building, and time how long it took to hit the ground. Applying formulae developed by Newton and Galileo, plus an allowance for air resistance should give the result.
Answer #4 (rejected):
I'd position the barometer and take a sighting to line up the top of the barometer with the top of the building. Knowing the height of the barometer and the distance to the base of the building should allow the derivation of the answer using Trigonometry.
Answer #5 (rejected):
I'd go to the superintendent of the building and say "I'll give you this very expensive barometer if you'll tell me how tall this building is."
*Probably this one ...
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08/12/2005 02:24:55 PM · #44 |
Just to be sure I'm being understood here:
1. I do NOT think we should become DCPC; some people seem to be pushing it that way though.
2. I don't find "meeting the challenge" to be limiting; I find "meeting the challenge obviously and literally" to be limiting, in the sense that it only acknowledges the validity of the consensus viewpoint.
3. I am not arguing that out-of-the-box images ipos facto deserve high scores.
4. I am pleading for less obvious and public censure of people who choose to approach the challenge obliquely; it's their right to choose, just as it's the voter's right to reject.
5. I am advocating that voters try operating from a different perspective; instead of saying "this doesn't meet my idea of the challenge", try saying "This is interesting! This photographer obviously sees the challenge differently than I do!" And then, of course, vote 'em the way you call 'em...
It's a plea for tolerance, people. Those of us who see ourselves as "artists" rather than as "commercial photographers with a client" deserve alittle compassion. We have a valid viewpoint. We're not subversive, we're interesting!
I don't vote "down" images that meet the challenge at the most literal level for "lacking imagination"; if they're well-done, I score them very high. The voters love them, they deserve to win, right? I just don't see the point in so stridently attacking people whose idea of "meeting the challenge" is a little further out in left field.
And, as the general points out, if the people who run the site WANTED only literalist, commercially valid entries, they'd set the challenges up to define that requirement. The glory of the site is its divesity. Loosen up a little, is my solution. Everyone posting to this thread has a valid POV; even me :-)
R.
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08/12/2005 02:33:01 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Just to be sure I'm being understood here:
1. I do NOT think we should become DCPC; some people seem to be pushing it that way though.
2. I don't find "meeting the challenge" to be limiting; I find "meeting the challenge obviously and literally" to be limiting, in the sense that it only acknowledges the validity of the consensus viewpoint.
3. I am not arguing that out-of-the-box images ipos facto deserve high scores.
4. I am pleading for less obvious and public censure of people who choose to approach the challenge obliquely; it's their right to choose, just as it's the voter's right to reject.
5. I am advocating that voters try operating from a different perspective; instead of saying "this doesn't meet my idea of the challenge", try saying "This is interesting! This photographer obviously sees the challenge differently than I do!" And then, of course, vote 'em the way you call 'em...
It's a plea for tolerance, people. Those of us who see ourselves as "artists" rather than as "commercial photographers with a client" deserve alittle compassion. We have a valid viewpoint. We're not subversive, we're interesting!
I don't vote "down" images that meet the challenge at the most literal level for "lacking imagination"; if they're well-done, I score them very high. The voters love them, they deserve to win, right? I just don't see the point in so stridently attacking people whose idea of "meeting the challenge" is a little further out in left field.
And, as the general points out, if the people who run the site WANTED only literalist, commercially valid entries, they'd set the challenges up to define that requirement. The glory of the site is its divesity. Loosen up a little, is my solution. Everyone posting to this thread has a valid POV; even me :-)
R. |
Perhaps your issue could be resolved by a monthly free study??? (perhaps a biweekly one?)
Originally posted by aboutimage:
Perhaps I should revise the steps:
1. View entry;
2. Accept the fact that others view the world differently than you;
2a. Optional: Have a beer;
3. Resist the temptation to post a thread proclaiming that rules should be instituted forcing others to enter photos that you see as meeting the challenge;
4. Vote your gut/heart/whatever works for you;
5. Realize that others are doing the same thing, in their own way;
5a. Optional: Have a beer;
6. Repeat until you feel like it;
7. Move the *%^! on and enjoy your life. Take some photos, maybe. |
damn now if only I could get past step 2a I'd be a better photographer. I keep going step 2a then 6... so what your saying is I'm missing a step???
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 14:38:05.
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08/12/2005 02:34:08 PM · #46 |
I think the struggle will always be trying to influence everyone to vote a certain way. Even by asking voters to be more open minded you are asking them to change their personal style of voting. I don't think this is one that will ever find resolution. Its asking the voter to be similar when we are all so obviously different.
Images that push people to think on the boundaries of a challenge topic have their place in a challenge, but unfortunately I don't think you will ever find one in first place. Another unfortunate is that the individual taking the image thinks it fits perfectly into the topic.
Personally, I will continue to take a topic find the sweet spot and try my best to s**t right on it. Hopefully my perspective is within the frame of the voters vision of the perfect sh*tter for this challenge is mine as well. If not I will take the critiques and try again!
Honestly, I am just holding out for the "Turd Free Study" challenge.
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08/12/2005 02:35:33 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by notonline:
Perhaps your issue could be resolved by a monthly free study??? (perhaps a biweekly one?)
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Actually, I've always thought that was an excellent idea. Why am I not suprised that the "literalists" consistently attack it as being contrary to the "spirit of DPC"?
Robt.
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08/12/2005 02:38:37 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I think the struggle will always be trying to influence everyone to vote a certain way. Even by asking voters to be more open minded you are asking them to change their personal style of voting. I don't think this is one that will ever find resolution. Its asking the voter to be similar when we are all so obviously different.
Images that push people to think on the boundaries of a challenge topic have their place in a challenge, but unfortunately I don't think you will ever find one in first place. Another unfortunate is that the individual taking the image thinks it fits perfectly into the topic.
Personally, I will continue to take a topic find the sweet spot and try my best to s**t right on it. Hopefully my perspective is within the frame of the voters vision of the perfect sh*tter for this challenge is mine as well. If not I will take the critiques and try again!
Honestly, I am just holding out for the "Turd Free Study" challenge. |
I'm NOT arguing that these images should "win"; I'm arguing that their creators should not be criticized and castigated and made to feel like second-class citizens of the site because their vision is not the common one. It's enough that they get voted down, isn't it? Why do we rub their noses in it?
I didn't start the thread that spawned all these outpourings from me, but it offeneds me deeply enough that I am speaking out. It's NOT about score.
R.
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08/12/2005 02:40:15 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by notonline:
Perhaps your issue could be resolved by a monthly free study??? (perhaps a biweekly one?)
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Actually, I've always thought that was an excellent idea. Why am I not suprised that the "literalists" consistently attack it as being contrary to the "spirit of DPC"?
Robt. |
So how about this. Two monthly free studies. One basic editing and one advanced??? Personally I would like to see this capped tho so you can only enter ONE and not both.
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08/12/2005 02:42:17 PM · #50 |
If I have time on Sunday, I think I'll make a trip to the desert and shoot that for LACK OF RAIN. Maybe I'll call it T H I R S T Y.
;-)
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