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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> Booo Canon!
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Showing posts 51 - 62 of 62, (reverse)
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 07/19/2005 08:18:25 AM · #51
I don't see any mention of crap customer service here just a very limited warranty that a customer is not happy with. Let's put the question a different way.

Is the warranty for Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Minolta or any other company manufacturing cameras any different? As has already been stated, a few times, most warranties have it in plain language that shipping costs to get the product to them must be paid by the customer. In some cases, where it's deemed to be a manufacturer's defect this money will be refunded.
 07/19/2005 08:23:45 AM · #52
Originally posted by Pano:
Originally posted by superdave_909:
Just one question! Do you really think that nikon, fuji, olympus, minolta, etc. would react to an issue like this any differently than
canon has?


I do not think that is of relevance for a consumer to tolerate crap customer service


Yes, granted Pano but LoudDogs initial reaction was that he wasn't going to buy Canon again because of this. Sad though it is, the point SuperDave is making is that you are probably not much better off defecting to a different manufacturer in terms of customer service.
 07/19/2005 08:29:55 AM · #53
Louddog, as a consumer I can understand where you are coming from. I have sent my older olympus in twice (second time because they missed the main problem the first time), while it was out of warranty (which I think you didn't say yours is past the warranty, you just didn't get the extended) and both times the camera came back much faster than I was told.
Chances are very good that the people on the phone don't know diddly about how to fix your problem, they probably just answer the phone and read from a manual, so they don't know how long it will take but are told that 3-4 weeks is a nice number to give. If they get it back to you sooner than they look great.

I would probably do as someone else suggested and send it back closer to when the warranty is up and get it re-mapped then, maybe in addition to this time.

Good luck with this.

Message edited by author 2005-07-19 08:30:25.
 07/19/2005 08:44:23 AM · #54
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
It would definitely be a nice feature, Olyuzi. I guess the larger sensor resolution gets the harder it is to do in-camera though?


Only if the mapping table is smaller than the number of bad pixels. My E-10 has this feature, and it's very handy. (The E-10 is for sale, by the way! :P ) What it does is from a cold startup where power has been lost (batteries changed, or the lithium battery pack I use with it has been unplugged) the table is reset. When the camera is first turned on after this, it takes a picture with the shutter closed, so a black picture. It goes through each pixel and any that is not (0, 0, 0) or within some tolerance of that, it marks in the mapping table. The whole process takes like 5 seconds.

After that, when the camera takes a picture, all the pixels found in that table are ignored, and their value is instead generated as an average of the neighboring pixels. Remember also that except for the Sigma SD9/10 cameras with the Foveon sensors, this is what's being done in all our cameras. Each "pixel" is actually 3 or 4 sites each with a red, gree, or blue (or emerald in some of the Sony cameras) filter in front of them. The sites actually record a gray value from pure white to pure black, filtered by that color, and then they are all averaged together to produce a final value for that pixel location.

It would be ideal if Canon did start including pixel remapping software with their cameras, who knows how many situations like that of the original poster they have to deal with. My guess is it's a process that if it goes wrong (such as the battery power runs out during mapping) it can put the camera in an unbootable state requiring sending in anyway. Either that or they like collecting fees for doing it on out-of-warranty cameras. :)
 07/19/2005 10:45:02 AM · #55
Okayâ€Â¦

First off I̢۪m by no means knowledgeable on camera sensors. When I realized what the problem was I thought the sensor would need to be replaced. Since it is just a software fix I do not have a problem with them fixing it. I appreciate the info given to me on this thread and feel much better about the repair. Thanks.

Second, Canon said this is a defect. I am only quoting them when I say the camera is defective. If they tell me that the camera they built is defective, I have no reason not to believe them. If you insist that this is not a defect, then you have lower quality standards then Canon. Personally, having to PS a white spot out of every photo I take with a brand new camera is not acceptable to me and probably not acceptable to Canon. Not even an option for me. If this is acceptable to you, that̢۪s great. I agree that the sensor is not defective, it was probably missed in the mapping process and that is what caused the camera to be defective.

Third, yes Canon is sending me a shipping label valued at maybe $10 and I am happy that they are at least willing to do that. However, I had to spend half an hour talking to three different people before they even considered parting with $10. A half hour of my time is worth more then $10. I only did that because of the principal. There is no way in hell I should have to pay a dime to have a camera fixed that was broken out of the box. When I buy something new I expect it to work as advertised. Nowhere in the advertising for this camera did it say white spots on your photo is a common occurrence and should be expected. There are no white spots on the sample images on Canon̢۪s web site.

Fourth, I have a 5-6 year old Sony camera that got heavily used and abused. I also have a D300 that is a few years old and had been used to shoot in hot dusty environments a lot. I use a Sony CD500 at work a lot that is a few years old. No white spots on any of the photos. Are Canon̢۪s new sensors so bad that I should accept white spots?

Fifth, I never said I was unwilling to send it in. I̢۪m just not happy with the prospect of having to possibly wait up to 3 weeks because the camera I bought, PER CANON, is defective. Next day air shipping exists for a reason. If it̢۪s just a software fix, why can̢۪t they just send my a CD and instructions? There are better options available then what they are giving me so I am not satisfied.

Sixth, I never said I would not buy Canon again. I love this camera and there is no other camera I would rather have. I just wish it would work as advertised. This experience will be a factor the next time I buy a camera, but it will not be the determining factor. Canon̢۪s customer service has not been horrible, it has just been far from great and below what I consider acceptable.

Seventh, yes I could wait for Circuit City to find a new camera for me and replace it. That would probably be easier, but who knows how long it would take since the camera seems to be on backorder all over the world. However, that is morally wrong for me to do. CC should not have to fix Canon̢۪s problem and I shouldn̢۪t expect them to. CC has convinced me that they provide quality customer service and I will now consider them my electronics store of choice.

Eighth, I am a Quality Engineer working for the largest aerospace company on the planet. It̢۪s my job to make sure these types of problems, or bigger problems, do not happen. Do you want me to lower my standards? Maybe it's not fair, but I expect the same quality in my presonal life as I expect in my profesional life.

Ninth, the moon landing was not a hoax, but it is popularly believed that the photos were faked because they could not get quality photos while they were up there.

Did I miss anything?

07/19/2005 10:45:32 AM · #56
Quote: You'll never notice them unless you zoom in above 100%

This is not true - I have seen the images first hand and you can see the dead pixels at less than 100%.

Another good point was made, louddog cannot PS the pixels out since he can only enter open challenges... and for that matter, why should he have to PS spots out of his pictures for any reason?

The point here is - regardless of whether the camera is defective or not - it came out of the box that way and no one wants a brand new camera repaired, nor do they want to give up their brand new camera for a few weeks.

I can personally understand his feelings about not wanting to ship it back and not wanting to pay shipping. My 20D came with a scratched sensor - so now I'm in the same position. Send it back... and NO, I don't want a repaired camera!
 07/19/2005 12:09:16 PM · #57
Good points - very well and conclusively made I say.

My contacts at Canon and your contacts at Canon obviously disagree with eachother as I was told it is not a defect - simply a naturally occuring incongruity that can be masked with a software fix. So there's no point in arguing there. I am certainly not one to lower personal quality standards - again, my job relies on it.

Ahhh, nothing like a good old discussion to get the blood flowing!
 07/19/2005 12:16:33 PM · #58
Originally posted by danmurrelljr:
Originally posted by louddog:
I'm really sorry if my disatisfaction with Canon bothers or insults you. I'm the customer, it's my camera, I want it fixed. You can think what ever you want, you can have low standards and be happy with defects, but I expect better.


You know what, your responses to me on this really rub me wrong. I tried to offer you some info on what is actually wrong with it, the severity of it, and how to take care of it yourself since you seem unwilling to send your camera off for an unknown period of time while they "repair" it. And I even told you what the repair would be. Your camera isn't defective, and it's not even a problem they put into your camera so you can't necessarily blame Canon. A hot pixel can result from something like a cosmic particle striking the sensor just so. That could have happened during shipping, or while sitting on the shelf at the retailer. The point is it happened at some time after the camera went through it's routine mapping procedure to cancel out any defective pixels the sensor had after production.

If it REALLY bugs you then send it back as they suggested. It's covered under warranty. But giving you a brand new camera, which could just as easily arrive with the same problem for something that you think is a defect but really isn't, is above and beyond what they are required to do. I personally would ignore a single pixel, it's not worth the hassle, and more will develop over time. It would be better to send it in with a month left on the warranty and have them remap pixels. That way you have the cleanest image going into your out of warranty period.

But quit inferring that I'm some kind of person who has low standards and loves defects, that's simply not true.


well said i agree with this
07/19/2005 12:59:14 PM · #59
Circuit city promised alot, it seems, when there was no risk on their part to have to pony up.
What circuit city should have done is taken the camera and overnighted one to you from a different store, and said hey- now do you want to buy the extended warranty?
 07/19/2005 01:09:59 PM · #60
Originally posted by louddog:
Okayâ€Â¦

Ninth, the moon landing was not a hoax, but it is popularly believed that the photos were faked because they could not get quality photos while they were up there.

Did I miss anything?


Go louddog! Hey, for what it is worth I agree with you here. When dealing with new products companies should stand behind them and do what they can to satisfy the customer. You should not have to pay anything for your warrentee service, including shipping. I for one would not want a brand new camera (six weeks old!) to have to be repaired. I'd want a replacement. Most likely I would get one from CC. They would return it to canon and not take a loss.

Good luck.

Again, not a canon vs nikon thing. I would expect the same from either company.
 07/20/2005 10:19:26 AM · #61
Originally posted by RichT8496:
Originally posted by Pano:
Originally posted by superdave_909:
Just one question! Do you really think that nikon, fuji, olympus, minolta, etc. would react to an issue like this any differently than
canon has?


I do not think that is of relevance for a consumer to tolerate crap customer service


Yes, granted Pano but LoudDogs initial reaction was that he wasn't going to buy Canon again because of this. Sad though it is, the point SuperDave is making is that you are probably not much better off defecting to a different manufacturer in terms of customer service.


RichT8496, you followed my trend of thought exactly!

Pano, I wasn't trying to say that this type of service is acceptable or
unacceptable. I think that sometimes people take things like this
situation personally. Poeple need to remember, it's nothing personal
just business. I certainly think that there is room for improving
customer service, as I am a huge advocate for good service. But,
people need to be reasonable too! example: I work in IT and the University of Michigan Health System and we support about 30,000 users,
15,000 workstations, 9,000 printers. Our helpdesk takes about 450 calls
a day, about 100-200 of which are desktop problems where someone needs to physically go to the workstation and look at it. Reasonable to us is that those 100-200 workstation will be fixed within 3 business days. Now explain that to the user who is not getting anything done for 3 days! Sorry for the long post!!
 07/20/2005 10:42:01 AM · #62
One thought to add: if you bought it on a credit card, the credit card company might have its own "lemon" guarantee that could help you out. Worth checking out anyway!
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