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07/13/2005 10:37:02 PM · #1 |
You wouldn't know it by looking at my photography, but I'm really a pretty good artist, with years of training. I only bring that up to build credibility for this post.
There's much to be gleaned on this site concerning equipment, technique and post-processing. Not that there isn't great advice about the artistic side; however I see a lot of requests for help in post-processing on images that were doomed before the camera was turned on. Many times these requests are putting the cart before the horse.
Regardless of what purists claim; I believe photography is art. And before an artist picks up a brush, they must know how to see. Sadly, many aspiring photographers get discouraged because they think they see something good and are unable to translate that to the image.
My advice to these people is to study Composition and the Elements of Design. You are certainly familiar with these concepts, as they are frequently used as challenges; however, a good image always includes at least one, and usually many of these elements at once.
A helpful excercise might be to read this tutorialand then review the results of a challenge. As you get down into the lower numbers, you will begin to see glaring departures from these guidelines. Fight it all you want, but the truth is that art is a science. Not everyone excels, but anyone can practice it and improve.
I have started this thread to see if anyone has creative tips that they would like to add; or previous threads of this topic they'd like to link.
The best tip I have is to look at your image with blurred eyes. Again, compare challenge winners to losers and you might notice that winning images usually jump out at you, even with blurred vision. That's a sign of good design.
There's a lot more to this, but the post is already way too long.
Cheers,
Roxanne
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07/13/2005 11:35:40 PM · #2 |
I would support this assertion. I have literally tens of thousands of images most of which have no artistic merit whatsoever, but as time has passed the small number of 'keepers' has steadily grown.
With time spent on various web sites before DPC, and now with a twice weekly challenge my 'eye' is starting to understand what should goes towards making 'keepers' rather then the waste bin or burnt onto the long forgotten cd's. Training the eye or being able to 'see' the image is a long and slow road, not everyone moves at the same rate, but keep at it it will come eventually.
With regard to meeting DPC challenges specifically as opposed to the wider general photographic realm, I have learnt that taking the challenge theme and entering a litteral interpretation or 'record' shot no matter how good technically gets a low vote here. In order to do well you have to have an image which adds this all important element of artistry, or provides a second 'theme' for the voters to engage with.
As an example look at the obsolete challenge. The winner 'upside down' had the addition of a very mysterious mountain and fog. I found myself wondering where in the world this was, and trying to work through the landscape. In second place we have the infrared shipwreck - now that has artistry and exceptional composition. In razor sharp the third place the lighting is what really makes the image zing. My image of the steam traction engine, I hope was enhanced by the old guys sat in the trailer. I didn't want a simple 'traction engine' shot, it needed something else. So when I looked for the image I purposly cropped 1/3 of the traction engine off and stood and waited until I had a clean view of the old guy and made sure he was not looking into the lens.
So lets review - artistery, lighting, supplementary and secondary elements to help tell a story, all add something to an image and certainly add points to your score.
No more flatly lit record shots - please ;-)
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07/13/2005 11:36:59 PM · #3 |
| agreed. i especially like the part about looking at a pic with blurred eyes, because it's so true. |
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07/13/2005 11:48:00 PM · #4 |
| here's some more reasons... |
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07/13/2005 11:49:35 PM · #5 |
My $.02...
Do not go out looking to take a photo for a challenge. Go out looking to take good photos period. Keep the challenge in the back of your mind and if at the end of the day one of your favorite shots meets the challenge, submit it. I see too many photos that meet the challenge fine, but is in no way a good photo. Take a good photo first, meet the challenge second.
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07/13/2005 11:57:17 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by louddog:
My $.02...
Do not go out looking to take a photo for a challenge. Go out looking to take good photos period. Keep the challenge in the back of your mind and if at the end of the day one of your favorite shots meets the challenge, submit it. I see too many photos that meet the challenge fine, but is in no way a good photo. Take a good photo first, meet the challenge second. |
I agree and thanks for the comp link! I'll take a photo for the challenge but I try to think of something original, the best seem to be those I just happen upon.
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07/14/2005 12:23:44 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by nborton:
agreed. i especially like the part about looking at a pic with blurred eyes, because it's so true. |
And now I'm starting to do that naturally... must be time to have my eyes checked at the optometrists. (Ok, it's not that bad yet, but I am of the age when it's a good idea.) |
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07/14/2005 12:42:53 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by louddog:
My $.02...
Do not go out looking to take a photo for a challenge. Go out looking to take good photos period. Keep the challenge in the back of your mind and if at the end of the day one of your favorite shots meets the challenge, submit it. I see too many photos that meet the challenge fine, but is in no way a good photo. Take a good photo first, meet the challenge second. |
This is so true and something I am now learning (the hard way, of course)! My family entry just "happened" to fit--and is doing great...my Sports entry I took for the challenge, and it is bombing...
go figure..hehehe
~~SiSi
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07/14/2005 01:42:58 AM · #9 |
I agree with the 'take and image and hope/make it fit the challenge' is a good plan. having a great idea and being able to pull it off also works - razor sharp was probably one of those.
Of my 4 best...two were designed - i had the idea and set up the shot. One was planned, but not technically as good as i could do now - took almost a week of looking for the right location. One was from a day of shooting with the challenge topic in mind. My number 5 highest scoring shot fits the 'look at the pics you took and see what fits'
Of these 4, one is artistic, one emotional, one sexy and one pretty. Humor comes in at #8. #5 is cute. No kittens. My top 8 have a flower, kids, a dog, and breasts. My sunsets/sunrises have not done well at all.
I did read a couple of books on composition and proper composition will go a long way to improving your score here.
 was one i shot after reading the books - yeah, there is lots wrong with it, but i am amazed at how well it scored in this challenge considering the BG, and other issues. it meets several rules of composition and that is why i think it did as well as it did.
Message edited by author 2005-07-14 01:44:47. |
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07/14/2005 02:11:28 AM · #10 |
What an interesting site Roxanne, thanks for the link!!
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07/14/2005 04:16:29 AM · #11 |
now im like transfixed by this phi thing
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07/14/2005 04:25:08 AM · #12 |
| "One reason your entry may not be doing well..." because your submission title did not contain the title of the challenge and coz if you do then i will vote you a 10 because i get a high when i see the challenge's title being used on the submission's title and will mostly give a 10 unless your photo really sucked and i cant make myself to do it no matter how i tried so i decide not to give you a 10. |
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07/14/2005 08:44:33 AM · #13 |
Great tips so far.
This is one I really need to work on:
Originally posted by neophyte:
[quote=louddog] My $.02...
Do not go out looking to take a photo for a challenge. Go out looking to take good photos period. Keep the challenge in the back of your mind and if at the end of the day one of your favorite shots meets the challenge, submit it. I see too many photos that meet the challenge fine, but is in no way a good photo. Take a good photo first, meet the challenge second. |
And shadow, that was stellar what you did in the circle challenge with you voting "statement". I hope it is not lost on anyone.
Thanks for sharing, everyone.
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07/14/2005 09:10:14 AM · #14 |
Take more then one shot at more then one angle with different settings each time.
Hold your camera still or use a tripod. |
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07/14/2005 09:17:14 AM · #15 |
Very good info and link. Thanks for starting this Greatandsmall
If I may add a tip I read once on an item from greatandsmall's web link..."Complementary colors: colors opposite to each other on the color wheel, e.g. Blue-violet and yellow, represent colors positioned across from each other on the color wheel. Complimentary colors exhibit more contrast when positioned adjacent to each other -for example yellow appears more intense when positioned on or beside blue or violet."
If you want to find a complementary color of lets say yellow and don't have a wheel around try this kind of difficult trick...
Look at the color in sort of the same way you would look at a 3d steriogram image, let your eyes blur and take in the color, may take a few seconds. Then look at a white wall or paper and let your eyes go soft, the color you see of the object now is it's complementary color. Some colors will even start to show it's complementary around the edge of the image like a halo if you stare long enough. It is a little difficult to do sometimes but once you learn to relax your eyes it is easy. Also a good tip to find colors when painting maybe your house ;).
Message edited by author 2005-07-14 09:28:10.
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07/14/2005 09:46:04 AM · #16 |
The website Roxanne linked to is awesome....also, if you look around on the site and click on some of the other links you will find more interesting stuff! I found 2 books and already added them to my amazon wish list!
Like sonofio said....take more than one picture at different....one thing to try is to just walk around with the camera up to your eye (or look at lcd, depending on camera) and just frame things using the rule of thirds....you will discover a whole new world! |
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07/14/2005 10:03:43 AM · #17 |
I agree, and I'm glad you started your this thread. I would like to add to it that it wouldn't hurt anyone to go back and look at how the meter works on their camera. A bad habit that I got into here at dpc and my mentor had practicly beat out of me is using that P setting. The one where it sets shutter speed and apiture for you. I have improved my photography 110% by simply using the manual mode and leared how to use the built in light meter in my camera. Yes it takes a little longer to get the shot right but that extra time also makes me slow down and look at the composition of the shot and keeps me from taking stupid pictures because I have to put work into my images now.
And remember, the only difference betwen John Sexton and you is John sexton has taken more bad pictures. just keep shooting because you can only better yourself with every shot. |
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07/14/2005 10:19:23 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by gi_joe05:
A bad habit that I got into here at dpc and my mentor had practicly beat out of me is using that P setting. |
Excellent advice! Manual mode, or even aperture/shutter priority lets you control the photo rather then letting your camera figure out what you want to do. I sometimes use P as a starting point for settings and then go into manual and adjust from there. I also shoot in Aperture priority a lot to control DOF, but usually jump to manual from there to change the shutter speed as well.
Shooting in point and shoot mode usually gives you point and shoot photos.
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07/14/2005 12:00:33 PM · #19 |
Compositional principles/tools used in a photograph are of little value, and may even confound the viewer, if not used with a purpose in mind. Elements of design should be incorporated only if they help to support the message that the photographer wants to convey. In critiqing an image, we should be asking what does the photographer want to convey and how effective is the meaning of the photograph being conveyed. The difference between a snapshot and a work of art is that the snapshot has little thought to what is to be communicated artistically whereas the photographic work of art has a developed message and a way of supporting that message so that it is understood by the viewer.
To be able to incorporate elements of design into a photograph we need to be clear about our purpose for taking the picture and then decide the best way to technically capture that purpose. The message is paramount and the technical aspects support the message. (Although, the technical in itself can be the message.)
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07/14/2005 01:58:00 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Compositional principles/tools used in a photograph are of little value, and may even confound the viewer, if not used with a purpose in mind. Elements of design should be incorporated only if they help to support the message that the photographer wants to convey. In critiqing an image, we should be asking what does the photographer want to convey and how effective is the meaning of the photograph being conveyed. The difference between a snapshot and a work of art is that the snapshot has little thought to what is to be communicated artistically whereas the photographic work of art has a developed message and a way of supporting that message so that it is understood by the viewer.
To be able to incorporate elements of design into a photograph we need to be clear about our purpose for taking the picture and then decide the best way to technically capture that purpose. The message is paramount and the technical aspects support the message. (Although, the technical in itself can be the message.) |
This is very true; and an excellent point. My portfolio bears some painful examples unispired images that were contrived, just to get something into a challenge before the deadline. There are also many that have a message that I failed to convey, due to lack of technical skills and discipline. Had I no concept of design, I would have given up on this long ago. Thus, the reason for my post.
Certainly there are many aspiring photographers here who could change the way they "see" by better understanding design. With that newfound vision, they may find inspiration where they didn't before, and may also better recognize what isn't going work, and why. If this keeps them from getting discouraged, then I think it's worth a try.
We aren't all going to be great, but we can all be better.
Edit: Redundancy
Message edited by author 2005-07-14 19:14:07.
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07/14/2005 08:37:53 PM · #21 |
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07/14/2005 09:03:17 PM · #22 |
| "Shoot like photshop don't exsit" was what one teacher had said in one of the clases I took last year ,it always stuck with me. |
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