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06/15/2005 01:27:34 AM · #1 |
I know this is a rule, but I dont think its fair when people still give high votes to photos that don't fit the challenge.
It's unfair to those of us who tried to make the photo fit the challenge theme.
I say this because I have recently seen a lot of people posting saying they vote based on picture quality. Or if it is a good picture that doesnt fit the challenge, they just take away a point or so. I usually give commentless 1's and 2's for pictures I feel aren't even close to fitting the challenge.
I'm complaining because sometimes I think instead of going for the challenge the way some people vote, I should just make every challenge a Free Study and turn in a possibly better photo. I wouldn't but you get the idea. |
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06/15/2005 01:48:50 AM · #2 |
I always give the photog the benefit of the doubt when it comes to meeting the challenge. Just my way of voting. For me does it meet the challenge is a yes/no... and although its hardly ever a no, even when it is i would still give as high as a 6 or 7 if the image blows me away (usually they dont and end up with 2's or 3's). I vote more based on photo quality (technical things like sharpness, lighting, balance, noise, composition, colors, etc) and artistic merits (originality, creativity, deeper meanings, moods, settings, emotion, etc).
I think its really unfortunate when people try so hard to 'meet the challenge' that they lose all the feelings and emotions from their photos. Photography is a form of art, a form of expression. The most powerful images are the ones that speak to the viewer. They take the viewer to another place, they bring a smile to the face and they make one stop and think.
Meeting the challenge is important but creating art is just as important if not more important - there is a whole world out there where meeting the challenge means nothing, your photo will need to stand on its own two feet, on its own merits. If you find yourself trying too hard to meet the challenge with dissappointing results, try giving yourself more creative liberty, take chances, forget the challenge for a few seconds and explore the world with your minds eye wide open, you will be surprised what you have been missing.
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06/15/2005 01:54:22 AM · #3 |
Nico, nice advice. I will try and broaden my scope.
But a few quick things:
1.) If it doens't meet the challenge I vote low. This is the same score I'd give a poorly taken photo that DOES meet the challenge. Seems fair to me.
2.) I want to say this more nicely that one of the mods the other day, but if you don't feel like entering / voting based on the challenge, why not find another photography site where you can vote and post your pictures without guidelines? |
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06/15/2005 01:59:38 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by nico_blue:
I think its really unfortunate when people try so hard to 'meet the challenge' that they lose all the feelings and emotions from their photos. Photography is a form of art, a form of expression. The most powerful images are the ones that speak to the viewer. They take the viewer to another place, they bring a smile to the face and they make one stop and think.
Meeting the challenge is important but creating art is just as important if not more important - there is a whole world out there where meeting the challenge means nothing, your photo will need to stand on its own two feet, on its own merits. If you find yourself trying too hard to meet the challenge with dissappointing results, try giving yourself more creative liberty, take chances, forget the challenge for a few seconds and explore the world with your minds eye wide open, you will be surprised what you have been missing. |
Nick, that is so well put. And so true. One of the things I'm learning is that I don't always want to just take a picture, I want to create a mood and stir some emotions. And the way to work towards that is to take some chances... and let the scores fall where they may!
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06/15/2005 02:03:42 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by reemas:
... but if you don't feel like entering / voting based on the challenge, why not find another photography site where you can vote and post your pictures without guidelines? |
Well, that's just it. Why don't you try giving the photographer the benefit of the doubt? Why not believe that if a photographer is choosing to enter a shot in a challenge, he or she truly believes that the image is meeting the terms of the challenge? If you disagree, perhaps deduct a point or two, but leave it at that?
Scoring 1s or 2s because a shot, in your opinion, doesn't meet the challenge reflects very much on how highly you place your opinion, at the expense of other people's takes on things. Frankly, that's a very narrow and petty viewpoint.
By the way, your Avg Vote Cast: 3.2914 (as per your profile) is probably the lowest I've seen around. I'd like to perhaps say at this point that generosity (or the lack thereof) is a mark of one's comfort level with oneself and one's positioning in the world.
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06/15/2005 02:08:35 AM · #6 |
On the first day of the semester the professor asked all students to do a thesis on global warming and it would be due at the end of the semester. Johnny was very intelligent and took pride in his field of study but decided to do his thesis on the rain forest instead of global warming. At the end of the semester all students turned in their thesis hoping to be the best in the class. Johnny had the best thesis of them all. Well-worded and debated, footnotes to reference, by far he had put more work into his paper than any of the students, but Johnny was horrified when he received a D- and below this horrific grade was a two-word note from the professor, OFF TOPIC!
A challenge is a challenge...Meeting the challenge should hold more merit than anything else. Because meeting the challenge is an opinion in most cases when voting it only sides my scale by 3. In other words if I feel a picture is deserves a 6 after looking at it technically then I must decide "did it meet the challenge". I prefer to use the words did it meet the challenge; Low -1 / Medium 0 / High +1. So after deciding technically the picture deserves a 6 and I find it to meet the challenge highly the give it a +1 and score it a 7.
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 02:22:59.
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06/15/2005 02:09:59 AM · #7 |
rgo, its nothing to do with the world, or comfort, or anything like that. i just voted based on the guidelines i first read. and i just really started voting (last 2 weeks, so its low, since i was giving 1,2,3's for unrelated entries. and then giving the rest of the photos higher scores.
plus the darkness challenge left me with a lot of low scores. i'll try and bump up my scale. |
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06/15/2005 02:13:05 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by reemas:
2.) I want to say this more nicely that one of the mods the other day, but if you don't feel like entering / voting based on the challenge, why not find another photography site where you can vote and post your pictures without guidelines? |
I know you arent necessarily attacking my voting habits but I'll speak in 1st person since its easier :-)
Personally, for me the challenges provide a starting point not necessarily an ending point. I love the site and the community, and am not trying to undermine the system in any way. Just as you give a poorly taken photo that meets the challenge a low score, I would also give a decent photo that doesnt meet the challenge a low score. In my earlier post when I said i would give a photo that blew me away a 6, you should note that my average vote given is a 6, so thats an average score for me, if i were using a scoring sheet you can imagine that i gave it a 0 for meeting the challenge and gave it full marks for everything else.
I think although we seem to be on opposite sides of the issue im sure our voting habits arent too different when you normalize everything. Our middle grounds might be slightly different in places but we both score excellent photos that meet the challenge very high and awful shots that dont meet the challenge very low.
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06/15/2005 02:13:06 AM · #9 |
Reemas:
What rgo said. You need to seriously re-evaluate how you're going about this voting business. That 3.2914 average (over nearly 1000 votes cast) is appalling. I thought I was a harsh voter with an average just over 5.0. At least in my case, my harshness is technical; I rarely give out really low scores for anything but extremely poor image quality. I vote down a bit if I honestly feel the image has been shoehorned into the challenge topic, but a really nice image (IMO of course) can't get less than a 5 from me.
What your average is telling us is that you decide for yourself what's a valid approach to take to a given challenge, then hammer the daylights out of any entry that doesn't take that approach. This, of course, is extraordinarily egotistical. I'd suggest taking a diametrically opposite perspective: ASSUME that the entries meet the challenge in their creators' eyes, and use that assumption to open your own eyes to other ways of seeing the world than yours.
Robt.
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06/15/2005 02:15:00 AM · #10 |
While I do not give 1's or 2's for not meeting the challenge...and I really do try to stretch my imagination into thinking they met it....I do not give over a 4.
I guess my thinking is that if your boss at work gave you an assignment, you would not be able to do something else just because you could not meet the assignment. A challenge is just that....an assignment. We should be trying to learn to expand our ideas and creativity by meeting the challenge as defined.
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06/15/2005 02:15:35 AM · #11 |
reemas, i had to agree with you. the dpchallenge site comes with a THEME each week so we should at least play along. Example, somebody posting a photo of a flower in a Metal challenge, I would just rank it a 1 eventho the photo is technically marvelous. Others can debate that "oh flowers come from soil, and soil makes metal" but I just dont give a damn for such nonsense. I have my opinions and others have theirs, so I guess in the end its up to the individual voters on HOW THEY FEEL THEY SHOULD VOTE, coz thats what dpchallenge is about.
Just dont feel too bad as to why some got a 1 for a "perfect" photo, coz maybe to others, that photo is simply not within the theme. cheers!
EDIT: but place a metal paperclip beside the flower shot, and i might just give you a 10 if the photo is perfect, LOL!
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 02:19:00. |
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06/15/2005 02:17:31 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by ShutterPug:
While I do not give 1's or 2's for not meeting the challenge...and I really do try to stretch my imagination into thinking they met it....I do not give over a 4.
I guess my thinking is that if your boss at work gave you an assignment, you would not be able to do something else just because you could not meet the assignment. A challenge is just that....an assignment. We should be trying to learn to expand our ideas and creativity by meeting the challenge as defined. |
Yes, but it's always possible that YOUR definition of what the challenge "is" doesn't agree with mine, and the challenges are usually worded so ambiguously as to make many possible interpretations valid ones. Taken to an extreme, the approach you suggest will reward only those who rigidly adhere to the obvious, to the detriment of creativity.
R.
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06/15/2005 02:17:54 AM · #13 |
bear_music,
you might be right. but nico_blue is more right:
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im sure our voting habits arent too different when you normalize everything. Our middle grounds might be slightly different in places but we both score excellent photos that meet the challenge very high and awful shots that dont meet the challenge very low.
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ill just adjust so may average is a 5 instead of a 3.2, but like i said earlier, i really only voted above 4 for photos that met the challenge enough and were shot nicely. |
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06/15/2005 02:19:50 AM · #14 |
by the way. if we just vote teh way we do, i guess it would balance out anyways. we probably all vote higher for some of the same images and lower for some of the same images.
ditto shadow. |
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06/15/2005 02:21:00 AM · #15 |
reemas, vote as you wish. its your right as a member/voter in dpchallenge. tho i agree with you (read my post above), i feel that humans are highly opinionated beings, and as such, it will be tough to make everything think alike.
EDIT: oh and as i was trying to say (hehe) thread like this soemtimes generate flame wars, lol. time to take out that rusty old flamethrower :p
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 02:25:00. |
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06/15/2005 02:23:35 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by reemas:
bear_music,
you might be right. but nico_blue is more right:
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im sure our voting habits arent too different when you normalize everything. Our middle grounds might be slightly different in places but we both score excellent photos that meet the challenge very high and awful shots that dont meet the challenge very low.
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ill just adjust so may average is a 5 instead of a 3.2, but like i said earlier, i really only voted above 4 for photos that met the challenge enough and were shot nicely. |
That's fine, and I applaud that. But the bottom line is, based on what you've said here, it seems clear that you think MOST of the images on which you vote do not meet the challenge. And that's simply not the case. I think by any reasonable interpretation of challenge themes, at least 75% of entries more-or-less meet the challenge. Some better than others, granted, but that's definitely in the eye of the beholder.
I guess the bottom line is this: is "meets the challenge" a yes/no decision, or a sliding decision? Do you score better for shots that better meet the challenge, even compared to shots that clearly meet it but perhaps less well? That's a difficult one to call, since our own preconceptions can color that dramatically. So I t6end to make it a yes/no decision, with the proviso that I will add points for a shot that meets the challenge in an extraordinarily fresh or creative way.
Robt.
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06/15/2005 02:25:18 AM · #17 |
This site is supposed to be (and should be) about FUN, and a place where our creative sides can get explored.
I have a boss at work, and used to have professors at university. When I'm at this site, I'm at neither work nor university. What would be the point of DPC if I were to treat it like work or an institution of formal learning? There are things that people can't learn at work or at university, just as there are things things that you can only learn at a more relaxed, fun and permissive context, like what I think DPC is and should be.
Who's right or more right? Who gives a bloody sh*t? It's an opinion, and everybody in the world has one.
-Rob
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06/15/2005 02:28:53 AM · #18 |
a light joke for all of you reading this thread:
2 girls, girl A and girl B are contesting for miss universe. girl A is technically prettier and better than girl B; but girl B finally wins the miss universe title because girl A is actually a guy in a girl make-up. LOL |
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06/15/2005 02:40:08 AM · #19 |
How many threads need to be started about this topic???
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06/15/2005 02:43:01 AM · #20 |
i dont know, but i couldn't search for the other one...
i wonder if it'll be back? |
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06/15/2005 02:46:30 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by reemas:
I say this because I have recently seen a lot of people posting saying they vote based on picture quality. Or if it is a good picture that doesnt fit the challenge, they just take away a point or so. I usually give commentless 1's and 2's for pictures I feel aren't even close to fitting the challenge. |
As one of those who advocate deducting a point or two for "not meeting the challenge", I'll bite.
- First, a lot of challenges have various interpretations. If you vote 1 or 2 because a photograph does not meet your interpretation of the challenge, you're being too harsh. How could you possibly know the photographer's point of view? A good example would be the darkness challenge : "show us what darkness means to you the photographer, not the masses".
- Second, this is an international site with culture and language differences. Giving the benefit of doubt to the photographer seems the reasonable thing to do.
- Third, I value good photography. Sure, creativity is precious.. but lets not devalue photography. For example, look at the "rock, paper, scissors" challenge. A number of entries just placed the 3 together, just to "meet the challenge". Why should I care for those entries? A beautiful rock photograph is so much better.
Personally, I vote 9-10 for creative photography (technically good and nails the challenge). 6-8 for good photography. 4-5 for boring, "meets the challenge" entries, and 1-3 for out-of-focus, I would never want to see again, kind of photographs.
I guess you could say that my second category is unfair to the third, but then, that's how I vote.
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06/15/2005 02:53:21 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by vfwlkr:
Personally, I vote 9-10 for creative photography (technically good and nails the challenge). 6-8 for good photography. 4-5 for boring, "meets the challenge" entries, and 1-3 for out-of-focus, I would never want to see again, kind of photographs.
I guess you could say that my second category is unfair to the third, but then, that's how I vote. |
I don't see how that's unfair. Anybody can press on the button and take an image. To take a photograph, hopefully there's some sort of a thinking process that the final product shows. |
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06/15/2005 02:59:50 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by vfwlkr:
Originally posted by reemas:
I say this because I have recently seen a lot of people posting saying they vote based on picture quality. Or if it is a good picture that doesnt fit the challenge, they just take away a point or so. I usually give commentless 1's and 2's for pictures I feel aren't even close to fitting the challenge. |
As one of those who advocate deducting a point or two for "not meeting the challenge", I'll bite.
- First, a lot of challenges have various interpretations. If you vote 1 or 2 because a photograph does not meet your interpretation of the challenge, you're being too harsh. How could you possibly know the photographer's point of view? A good example would be the darkness challenge : "show us what darkness means to you the photographer, not the masses".
- Second, this is an international site with culture and language differences. Giving the benefit of doubt to the photographer seems the reasonable thing to do.
- Third, I value good photography. Sure, creativity is precious.. but lets not devalue photography. For example, look at the "rock, paper, scissors" challenge. A number of entries just placed the 3 together, just to "meet the challenge". Why should I care for those entries? A beautiful rock photograph is so much better.
Personally, I vote 9-10 for creative photography (technically good and nails the challenge). 6-8 for good photography. 4-5 for boring, "meets the challenge" entries, and 1-3 for out-of-focus, I would never want to see again, kind of photographs.
I guess you could say that my second category is unfair to the third, but then, that's how I vote. |
I am one of those that deduct a point or two for how well the photo meets the challenge. But it̢۪s not if it meets the challenge but how well did it meet the challenge. LOW, MEDIUM, or HIGH. The reason I do this because I can̢۪t say for sure that it did not meet the challenge but I can say for sure if the photograph makes me believe it meets the challenge. This is a challenge-based site therefore I take that in account when voting. After all it is up to the photographer to offer up a photograph that speaks to us within the challenge realm. So if I see a photograph that technically I feel deserves a 6 and IMO it meets the challenge highly I will add 1 point and vote a 7. However if I think the same picture meet the challenge very loosely then I will deduct a point and vote a 5. If I feel that the photograph is in the gray area, giving the photographer the benefit, then I will add 0 to the technical score and vote a 6.
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 03:28:15.
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06/15/2005 04:27:41 AM · #24 |
I am one of those voters who vote high, I see no sense in voting 1,2 or 3. these are punishing votes .
I look for creativity, and technique first and if the image hits me.
I start at 10 and work dowen the lowest I vote now is a 5.
I believe my 10s and 9s are well earned.
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06/15/2005 04:31:59 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by kiwinick:
I am one of those voters who vote high, I see no sense in voting 1,2 or 3. these are punishing votes .
I look for creativity, and technique first and if the image hits me.
I start at 10 and work dowen the lowest I vote now is a 5.
I believe my 10s and 9s are well earned. perhaps I am in line with vfwlkr.
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