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06/14/2005 10:46:23 PM · #1 |
A DQ because of a 1 step desaturation method instead of using desaturate+curves+contrasting. I used calculation with overlay method, only following a tutorial I found. However, the council found it fit to DQ me because of use of anything other than 'Normal' Adjustment Layers. As the Calculation method was not used as a layering application. I don't see how this applies.
Perhaps I missed where it is said that an adjustment that appears on the same menu as contrasts and such can only be applied if and when in normal mode.
I feel that if such methods are to be so limited, they in whole should be disallowed or in whole allowed. Especially when using either form of the Calculation method (normal or overlay) I could have produced nearly identical results, being that we are only allowed a 640x640 post, you would and could not have seen the difference on the small scale.
I find this DQ to be rather unfair. Perhaps I am way out of line. I don't want to ruffle anyones feathers, and wish to not start fights. Any response on this would be kindly welcomed in respect to showing me where the explained and detailed rules on such actions would be found.
Thanks.
Message edited by author 2005-06-14 22:53:06.
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06/14/2005 10:52:56 PM · #2 |
sorry to hear about the dq... i didnt quite understand what you did, whats the 'calculation' method?
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06/14/2005 10:54:52 PM · #3 |
In photoshop its under the Image toolbar. As where you would find contrasts and hues, and such. It makes an image B&W using color data. Such as increasing Curves and Contrast then desaturating does.
It is not, however, an Adjustment Layer as I was DQ'ed for.
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06/14/2005 11:02:47 PM · #4 |
If I understand it correctly, you made a duplicate layer, applied calculation to it, then blended it into the BG layer. The calculation tool is only one of many tools that would be disallowed under this workflow. It's explicit in the basic editing rules that NO Layers containing pixel data may be used. The blend mode is irrelevant, actually, as it only applies when you use a non-pixel adjustment layer, which may only be used in "normal" mode. If calculation is a non-pixel adjustment layer (you say it isn't) then you're not allowed to use it in any blend mode but "normal".
I use PS 7.0 so I don't know the tool myself.
Robt.
Message edited by author 2005-06-14 23:04:28.
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06/14/2005 11:04:01 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
If I understand it correctly, you made a duplicate layer, applied calculation to it, then blended it into the BG layer. The calculation tool is only one of many tools that would be disallowed under this workflow. It's explicit in the basic editing rules that NO Layers containing pixel data may be used. The blend mode is irrelevant, actually, as it only applies when you use a non-pixel adjustment layer, which may only be used in "normal" mode.
Robt. |
No. I opened the image, clicked IMAGE>CALCULATION>APPLY.
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06/14/2005 11:05:42 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by dpakoh:
Originally posted by bear_music:
If I understand it correctly, you made a duplicate layer, applied calculation to it, then blended it into the BG layer. The calculation tool is only one of many tools that would be disallowed under this workflow. It's explicit in the basic editing rules that NO Layers containing pixel data may be used. The blend mode is irrelevant, actually, as it only applies when you use a non-pixel adjustment layer, which may only be used in "normal" mode.
Robt. |
No. I opened the image, clicked IMAGE>CALCULATION>APPLY. |
Right, see my edited version, you were too fast. If you used "overlay" mode then this was illegal under basic editing.
R.
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06/14/2005 11:05:51 PM · #7 |
Basic editing is very limiting in what you can do. Too much in some cases, but that is the pholosophy of DPC. There is a large anti-digital art sentiment here, with a broad definition of digital art. Or to put it another way, a large "as it comes from the camera" contingent.
As you will no doubt see and hear many times, there is no way to specifically list the allowed and disallowed editing options, as there are many many editing programs out there and each has it's own ways and names for things.
Even it you did do calculations on an adjustment layer (if that is possible, i am not familiar with that tool/command/function) the ONLY allowed blending method is NORMAL. Overlay is not allowed.
When in doubt, a)do not do it b)ask first
Sorry for your bad luck. All i can recommend is make 110% sure the date on your camera is properly set! That is one reason for DQs that really POs people, and there is no defending it.
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06/14/2005 11:06:50 PM · #8 |
*******Blending modes of Channels (as well as Adjustment Layers) must be set to Normal in Basic Editing.*******
As I understand the adjustment I made, is no different than that of what curves(and/or levels)+contrast+desaturation does. The only adjustments to the image are to increase or decrease color intensities (like curves) and then to allow for some to appear darker (as does contrast) and then making it B&W one step creating a new channel, document, or selection.
And as stated in the rules:
Post-shot Adjustments may be made to your image in a photo editing program, so long as the modification is applied to the whole image. This includes levels, conversion to black and white, hue/saturation, sizing/rotating, curves and cropping (or their non-Photoshop equivalents). The use of certain editing and adjustment tools is restricted or prohibited as outlined below.
* Filters: The use of filters (or non-Photoshop equivalent) is strictly limited. Any filter or stand-alone utility designed and used to preserve the integrity of the image and/or reduce the effects of noise, scratches, etc, are permitted. These include but are not limited to the Sharpen, Unsharp Mask, and Dust & Scratches filters, and standalone image cleanup utilities such as NeatImage. However, no effects filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur, which are allowed. Any filter permitted by this rule must be applied uniformly to the entire image. Selective application of any filter is prohibited.
* Spot-Editing: Absolutely no spot-editing is allowed. This includes, but is not limited to drawing tools, dodging/burning tools, and cloning tools. Additionally, the use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping.
* Layers: Only Adjustment Layers (or the non-Photoshop equivalent) may be used. An Adjustment Layer is one that does not contain any pixel data, but rather is a special, non-image layer that lets you experiment with color and tonal adjustments to an image without permanently modifying the pixels. Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode. All other types of layers (including those that contain pixel data or masks) and all other blending methods (modes) are prohibited. Changing the opacity of an Adjustment Layer is permitted.
* Borders: It is suggested that if you decide to use a border, you should only use one or two solid colors around the outside of your photo. However, alternative borders are allowed, as long as they do not contain any text, clip art, photographs, or other artwork.
* No text may be added to your submission. This includes copyright statements.
*****************
I used No Adjustment Layers, Layering, Or Blending of Layers.
Again... If someone can clarify exactly how this violates it term for term, because I must be missing the terminology to understand this correctly, I'd be greatly appreciated.
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06/14/2005 11:09:20 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Right, see my edited version, you were too fast. If you used "overlay" mode then this was illegal under basic editing.
R. |
Ok, well if you are using the same layer (i.e. the background) and only applying any changes to that, is that still blending of layers?
The calculation method gives you the option to select layers, but if you are only using the one layer as the only one to be edited is that still layering?
Because I interperted this as being one and only layer if I used only that layer (i.e. non-layered beginning image). But, if I'm completely wrong, please help me to understand.
Message edited by author 2005-06-14 23:10:40.
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06/14/2005 11:09:22 PM · #10 |
" I used calculation with overlay method, only following a tutorial I found. "
From your first post. "Overlay" is a blending mode. Only "normal" blending mode is allowed in basic editing.
Robt.
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06/14/2005 11:10:57 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
" I used calculation with overlay method, only following a tutorial I found. "
From your first post. "Overlay" is a blending mode. Only "normal" blending mode is allowed in basic editing.
Robt. |
The reason this is significant is because applying "overlay" mode to a tool is exactly the same as selecting certain values out and treating htem differently than the rest of the image. Use of selection tools is not allowed in basic editing.
R.
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06/14/2005 11:12:39 PM · #12 |
I guess I don't get what 'blending' means in photoshop terms. Again, this post is a WebSite Suggestion for the challenges asking for deeper clarification of rules, so I suppose I'm in the right place to find out this now.
I mean, being a novice as I am... When I see the same effect or nearly the same effect being produced using several steps as with using a one step - I figured it was more of a shortcut to acheiving the same result.
Technically speaking. As Photoshop works, does it not shortcut many tasks that would normally involve layering to acheive a desired effect such as this?
Message edited by author 2005-06-14 23:14:41.
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06/14/2005 11:33:42 PM · #13 |
I've often commented that I work harder on basic editing than on advanced editing for this very reason; I'm forced to achieve my vision manually, as it were. Those who argue with me say I'm subverting the "spirit" of the rules by trying to "work around" them. I'm not the only one, of course...
But the FACT of the matter is that only "normal" blending mode is allowed in basic editing. Period. If I understand it correctly, you followed a tutorial to attain a desired result, and one of the steps in the tutorial was to apply "calculation" in the "overlay" mode. In other words, you used "calculation" in an other-than-normal blending mode.
There's a little drop-down list when you go to "edit/fade calculation" (assuming that's what you did) and on the list is stuff like normal, lighten, darken, multiply, overlay, difference, saturation, color, hue, etc; each of these is a different "blending mode" and each has a dramatic effect on the finished result.
In advanced editing, we apply these effects on a duplicate layer, then we use the layer properties dialogue box to experiment with these blending modes. If we choose to apply the effect on the BG layer, thenw e only get one shot at fading/blending it, and that's through "edit/fade effect" and it has to be done before you move on to any other step.
I suspect, by your description, that this is what you did. Admittedly, in that workflwo there's no "tag" that tells you you are using a "blending mode", but that's what it is just the same.
Robt.
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06/14/2005 11:39:39 PM · #14 |
If I have been DQ'd can I post the image here now? Even though the contest continues?
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06/14/2005 11:40:19 PM · #15 |
Sorry about the DQ, Greg. You threw us a curve with that one and we debated it all week. This was not a quick decision, nor was it unanimous. A little insight...
The rules don't (and can't) list every possible combination and use of every tool, and this is one of those "spirit of the rules" things. You didn't use layers per se, but with Calculation you were essentially able to use the three color channels as if they WERE layers. Mixing the color channels was OK, but setting the channels to blend modes other than Normal was not. If allowed, that would have provided a way to mix layers of data using Hard Light, Multiply, Overlay etc.- effects which are forbidden in Basic Editing. It's the same general principle as the blending modes in Adjustment Layers, and if Photoshop CS7 suddenly allowed you to do spot editing with the Gaussian Blur filter, then we'd probably have to disallow that too. Just because you might be able to reach the same result legally doesn't make an illegal method OK.
We didn't think you were intentionally trying to cheat or anything, and there wasn't really a precedent for this particular technique, which is why we didn't count this image against your "DQ quota." I hope you'll understand that this was an unusual situation, and that we too are working in good faith. |
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06/14/2005 11:41:26 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by dpakoh:
If I have been DQ'd can I post the image here now? Even though the contest continues? |
Yes, you can post it. |
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06/14/2005 11:44:16 PM · #17 |
//www.pensacolapoker.com/dpakoh/sidebyside.jpg
the image to the left is using only [Curves, Levels & Contrast]
(and hastily done to show result)
the image to the right is original from contest using [calculation with overlay]
I guess I'll have to take the DQ now.. but If I knew this would have happened, I'd easily have used the other way.
Message edited by muckpond - large image turned to link. |
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06/14/2005 11:51:24 PM · #18 |
That's interesting: the image as entered shows a type of evening out that I can attain in PS7 with the cntrl-alt-tilde technique and 2 additional layers, one blended to multiply and the other to screen. It's a contrast-control solution, and I have never been able to duplicate it "legally" in basic editing.
So, in that sense, the SC made the right call IMO. One of the problems they have to deal with all the time, I suspect, is improvements in editing software making possible one-step duplication of results that had to be done by hand before. And if the steps involved in doing them by hand are not basic-editing legal, then really the one-step version should not be either, out of fairness.
Robt.
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06/14/2005 11:55:25 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
So, in that sense, the SC made the right call IMO. |
Its not about whether or not they made the right call so much as the end result.[Atleast on my monitor - the 2 images look nearly identical]
I just wish the rules would have clarified a little more specifically. Which is why I started the thread. Hopefully in the future (near future) the rules can be more complete. I know it takes time to write them, but even at a sentence a day they could include a lot more information even week to week on challenges.
Perhaps it would get to a point where only people intentionally trying to squeeze one by get DQ'ed, instead of those of us who don't understand the shortened text of the current rules to the fullest extend.
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06/14/2005 11:56:09 PM · #20 |
its a very nice image! would have been one of my top picks if i had gotten to voting for it b4 it was removed.
i think this was a very unique circumstance and hearing from sc it wasnt an easy decision for them to make. I guess always remember that the end doesnt justify the means. Take the longest route if it is the safest.
can you add the photo to your portfolio, i want to add it to my favourites :-)
Message edited by author 2005-06-14 23:56:46.
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06/14/2005 11:59:23 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by nico_blue:
i think this was a very unique circumstance and hearing from sc it wasnt an easy decision for them to make. I guess always remember that the end doesnt justify the means. Take the longest route if it is the safest.
can you add the photo to your portfolio, i want to add it to my favourites :-) |
Definitly. I only wish I knew the difference between the 2 steps :D
;-) It will show up in a few minutes when the contest ends finally...
My only high scoring photo... :-( Was running with a 6.35 last I checked before it was removed. I was so excited all week. Actually have something to talk about. This is more embarrasing than anything. Atleast I learned something about photoshop... the hardway.
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06/15/2005 06:10:10 AM · #22 |
| actually we all learned something about Photoshop. i have never used the Calculations feature before this debate, but i've already incorporated it into my workflow for catalog photo work. |
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06/15/2005 06:40:11 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by dpakoh:
...
My only high scoring photo... :-( Was running with a 6.35 last I checked before it was removed. I was so excited all week. Actually have something to talk about. This is more embarrasing than anything. Atleast I learned something about photoshop... the hardway. |
Sorry about the DQ Greg, that's a great shot that you should be proud of. I had something very similar with my Light on white challenge image where I didn't realize and used an adjustment layer with screen mode. I could have achieved nearly the same result with different methods. My mistake and I really kicked myself as it was my highest scoring challenge entry too. I'm pretty careful now and reread the Editing rules before entering each of the challenges.
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06/15/2005 07:15:43 PM · #24 |
Hi Greg,
First of all, I'm genuinely sorry about the DQ. I'm sure I speak for all of Site Council when I say that we take no joy in this type of DQ -- one where the photographer clearly made an effort to understand the rules.
Your are correct that the Calculations tool is not addressed specifically in the rules. The simple reason for this is that pretty much all of us on Site Council had either not heard of the tool, or not explored its capabilities before. We did follow the tutorial links you gave us, and did some other research on the tool as well, so we could understand, as fully as possible, exactly what the tool did and how it accomplished it.
Our understanding is that the tool processes each color channel independently, and then combines the channels together according to the blending mode selected. Based on our research and testing, we found this to be functionally equivalent to processing each color channel on a separate layer, and then combining the layers together.
Although the Basic Rules does not allow or disallow the Calculation tool, it was clear that the equivalent action, through use of layers, would be illegal under the Basic Editing rules. Ultimately, our ruling is that the spirit of the Layers rule was violated. Although it is exceedingly rare that we invoke the spirit-of-the-rules clause to disqualify an image, the consensus was that this was the appropriate course of action.
As to clarifying the rules, this is something almost constantly under discussion within Site Council, and we do our best to make changes as needed. The tricky part is that longer is not always better -- I'm sure you've seen many long, wordy contracts that you've never bothered to read. The longer the rules get, the more people gloss over them or skip reading them entirely. As it is, not reading the rules is the most common "root cause" of DQ's. We do our best to strike a balance between comprehensive and concise. I'm sorry we failed in this case.
If you have any specific suggestions that would help clarify the rules, we are always open to them.
-Terry
Message edited by author 2005-06-15 19:16:03.
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06/16/2005 12:05:37 AM · #25 |
I do appreciate all the input from the council. I guess we all learned alot about the Calculations tool. I completely understand how it works now from the help of both members of the council and a few members on the site. I just had no idea it was actually so complex.
As for a suggestion to the rules - I think any time a situation like this occurs - it should be amended to the rules. If calculation is new to some now, it could be old news later, and people squeezing by on editing could use it somewhat malicously.
Atleast we can lay this to rest for now. Hopefully a situation like this will not occur again(or any time soon)
:-)
-Greg
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