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06/06/2005 11:00:55 AM · #51 |
Sorry muckpond - I was researching one of my points when you must have posted...
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06/06/2005 11:02:58 AM · #52 |
Alrighty...I'll set a reminder ;p Also, is US Eastern Standard/Daylight Time officially known as DPC Time now?
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06/06/2005 11:06:46 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by yeoua:
... But what I meant in adding this is that this judgment is subjective as it is, then you add in moral subjectivity and you might as well just stay with the politically correct topics and adhere as closely as you can to the literals. This literalness might be boring for some. I actually rather welcome some of the extremeness I've seen, having looked at some pretty crazy stuff at deviantart. ... |
If you are going to expect voters to be entirely tolerant of danderson107's efforts to "make people realize this stuff happens", how can you not allow them to apply their own "moral subjectivity" ? I think we are better off trying to minimize both.
What you call "extremeness" and "pretty crazy stuff" have their place. But that's not what dpc is about. Challenge entries shouldn't get voted high because they have shock value, or because they touch on controversial subjects, or because the entering photographer is trying to "make people realize this stuff happens". They should get voted high because they meet the topic and are technically well executed. Selecting subjects that are pleasing to the tastes of the voters will get you more wow factor votes than shocking or offending their sensabilities will. I think that is as it should be. |
You're right, but they also should not get rated lower or receive comments made to that effect then. |
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06/06/2005 11:10:12 AM · #54 |
Are the commenters/voters on these photos not open minded because they don't like your photo, or are you not open minded because you don't like their opinions?
Just because someone has a different opinion then yours does not make them closed minded. Closed minded is thinking everyone should think the same as you. There is nothing wrong with people having opinions and people not liking particular things.
I'm sure the people that are voting you low and commenting negative on the suicide photos know exactly what suicide is and know that it does exist. They do not need anyone to educate them or make them aware of it. I'm guessing they just do not consider a photo of it art, and they are letting you know.
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06/06/2005 11:10:14 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
And why is legality an issue? Just the depiction of using drugs (doesn't really have to have drugs in the photo) is a big no-no. Why? Because it could be considered encouraging the use of... |
actually, and i don't know the full history of it, but i would think it's more an issue of not wanting to involve ourselves in a dispute with a model.
and, yes, US Eastern time is now aka "DPC Time," according to the US National Institute of Standards and Technology, a division of the US Commerce Department's Technology Administration. :P |
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06/06/2005 11:15:25 AM · #56 |
Considering this doesn't really involve the images concerned...
Drugs ARE just barred from DPC because of the legality issue, and not because they encourage the use of drug taking as asserted by Muckpond.
Your argument doesn't really make sense. I'm not sure what your point about the billboard is!? There's a difference between art and advertisement. Nudes aren't appropriate on billboards or city busses, but they would certainly be considered art. The banning of liquor advertisements is slightly more understandable because there's a commercial incentive to make binge drinking attractive and this is something the government would try to prevent. This isn't true for our subject in this case...
I'll discuss more on the suicide issue at 12:01AM DPC time!
Farewell
Alex
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06/06/2005 11:30:50 AM · #57 |
Ok - Had to take a peek at DPChallenge Terms of Use. Here is what's said about drugs specifically (bold emphasis added to highlight main item).
4.2 You will not use the DPChallenge.com Service to post content or to design, manufacture, market or sell a Product that (...non-applicable items left out)...(viii) encourages the use of drugs or the under-age use of alcohol or cigarettes or
(...kept this one in because I found it interesting...) (ix) is generally offensive or in bad taste.
The above item is the only reference I can find to drugs specifically. Sounds like a morality issue to me, but you're probably right Alex - it's most likely a legal issue. ;^)
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
And why is legality an issue? Just the depiction of using drugs (doesn't really have to have drugs in the photo) is a big no-no. Why? Because it could be considered encouraging the use of... |
actually, and i don't know the full history of it, but i would think it's more an issue of not wanting to involve ourselves in a dispute with a model. ... |
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06/06/2005 11:46:42 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
is generally offensive or in bad taste. |
I've brought that up before - it seems to be a pointless clause here. So many people - even ones who don't like certain depictions - are bent on erasing any boundaries and saying it's all subjective. i.e. "Who's taste? Yours? Mine?" Frankly, I don't know where the line is, or if there really is one, but I am oh so tempted to find it myself. ;-)
One last thought - I don't think there is really such a thing as "voting down" an image. If you deduct points because you don't like the subject / lighting / focus / etc. that is your vote and not only your right, but your responsibility. In that sense, it is more likely that people who do not deduct points if they are repulsed by the subject matter are actually "voting it up" and artificially inflating the score. It's ironic because those same people who say "I don't like the subject, but I'm not going to vote it down" are like everyone else when it comes to mundane subjects like trees or pets or flowers and even leave comments like "Technically good, but boring subject".
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06/06/2005 12:09:33 PM · #59 |
Ken - to quote you "...it seems to be a pointless clause..." is the reason I find it interesting.
It's almost like an emergency safety valve - if some image is SO outrageous that many people are fired up then a valid reason for tossing it out is available.
Although I find it difficult to see it actually being used based on the wide range of viewpoints/perspectives in a worldwide community such as DPC. You can almost always find someone ready to agree or disagree on just about any subject made available here. Myself included. ;^)
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06/06/2005 01:19:04 PM · #60 |
Yes, yes. There's a difference, however, between condoning and encouraging something and using it as a subject. I understand that this is a fine line of complete subjectivity but there is a definite difference that shouls be acknowledged.
Just because the encouragement of the use of drugs is prohibited on DPC does not mean it precludes the notion that there are legal as opposed to moral incentives. That aside, when did the DPC council become the moral authorities?
Regardless, we're straying from the point. The point, irritatingly enough, is something upon which we can only focus when voting is over.
:)
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06/06/2005 01:21:19 PM · #61 |
Suicide is a touchy subject, and the truth is photographing and showing the situation is not unexpected seeing as how it is a reality. We deal with it often, in the news, in our personal lives (unfortunately for some), etc. But the photos should be rated on "Decision"... my excuse for giving some photos a lower score might not be acceptable to some (after all we all have our own opinions), but it definitly was not because of morbid content (or any other content for that matter).
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06/06/2005 01:25:54 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Glen King:
Before continuing this discussion further, I think you might want to take a look at this thread.
Skiprow's loss
With all due respect to Skiprow, I have to post this:
People decide to commit suicide, because they they feel there is no other way to handle their problems. The scenarios that a suicidal person comes up with in his mind are far darker and more horrifying than anything I've seen in this challenge. No matter what anyone says a friend, relative, clergy or therapist, all the advice comes across as trite and condescending. People that commit suicide, usually think something along the lines of "Well, I'll show them." Suicide is a call for attention, because needs are not getting met. The depressed person doesn't think about not being around to enjoy the attention. If they succeed. They don't think about those that are left behind to handle the problems they are avoiding.
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Sorry Glen but I do need to answer this even if it takes us off at a tangent.
I disagree that suicides think "I'll show you" or that it is just a call for attention. Suicides make a decision to kill themselves. Yes they are in the deepest depression but they cannot think of any way they wish to continue living. This may be unreasonable to the rest of us but to them it is an answer. When a young friend of mine killed himself at the age of 20, a very good counsellor reminded me that I had helped bring him up to think for himself so why was I so angry that he made THIS decision? Of course suicides do not always consider the pain they leave behind but then how often do we all consider others when we think we know what is best? Or perhaps they think this IS the best for everybody.
I will do anything to help people in this state of mind and in fact this young man's death stopped at least three other young people doing the same. Perhaps this was why.....
Got that off my chest and sorry if anyone is upset.
By the way I find the pics of suicide difficult to view but I am trying very hard to judge them as photos not emotionally because I know I have a problem not the photographer.
Pauline |
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06/06/2005 02:07:27 PM · #63 |
I score suicide photos very low just because I believe it is not very responsible to condone this behavior...I don't know if it was real or not but a member of this site just recently experience this act when a family loved one made this their decision... that being said.....I have also known people who have end their lives this way...
I did however decide to go back over my votes and reconsidered judging the suicide photos that I put at the bottom of the list and did judge them on how I believed the meet the challenge and delt with artistic and technical issues.......
My opinion of the images haven't changed. I believe suicide is something that needs to be talked about....but I am not sure this is the forum to do it...
BMM |
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06/06/2005 02:12:35 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by samtrundle:
Coolhar,
I have been thinking of saying something for a while now, but I must say that I am continually disappointed by the way in which you attempt to limit the creativity and scope of the DPC community. Yes, DPC, as a forum in which success is determined by popular vote, is a place where pretty, stock-style photographs that provide uncontroversial interpretations of challenges will do well, but that is not to say that this site should be confined to people seeking to produce such images.
DPC provides it's users with a forum to share their work, and attempt to grow as photographers. Given then, the widely held perception of photography as an artform, such growth is not merely about enhancing ones technical skills, it involves learning to challenge ideas, provoke thought and evoke emotion. Your continued attempt to stifle imaginative expressions and interpretation does nothing to aid in this growth.
I'm well aware, that as it stands, my own photography is hardly provocative or challenging, but I personally would like the freedom to engage in more imaginative or provocative photography without being stifled by such vehemently conservative approaches. I'm sure there are many within this community that feel the same.
Photography (and, in turn, dpc) is more than f-stops and shutter speeds. It is creativity, imagination, and emotion. The world is not always a beautiful place, and in seeking always to portray it as such, we tell only half a story.
Anders |
Thanks for that post Anders. You have put into words some things I have been thinking about for a while. I am not always pleased with being perceived as advocating for the "pretty, stock-style photographs that provide uncontroversial interpretations of challenges". That is not the kind of photography I aim for in my work, nor do I aim to reward it with my words or my votes (see my signature). I do, at times, try to limit the scope of dpc, but not with the intent of stifling imagination or creativity. There needs to be a balance between the technical and the creative. dpc cannot be all things to all people. It is my perception that dpc has drifted away from it's original intended mission toward being an all-encompassing photography site that has appeal to almost anyone but doesn't have the depth to do anything as well as we could if we limit our resources to excelling in fewer areas of concentration.
Maybe my views and approach will change when I feel that I have acheived all that I can in the area of improving my technical skills. But for the time being I am not trying to do artistic photography. I am too old to get enthralled by creativity for the sake of creativity; not much I have seen here really shocks me, but I have seen a lot that I think is trying to do so. I would rather look at a cliche shot like a sunset or a flower or a bug macro that is done very well technically than to look at one where the photographer is more concerned with trying to find a way to make their shot look different than with doing it well. I think that is what dpc started out trying to do -- teach people to do their shots well.
Technical proficiency is something that can be learned; and learned faster by applying your energies in a carefully guided way. Creativity, imagination and emotion in pictures are not things that can be forced; and efforts to do so are often counterproductive. Some people have more of that in them than others. But even the most creative, imaginative, artistic photographers can produce better works if the have a good understanding of the technical part.
I am not trying to crowd the creative out of dpc. But I don't want it to become such a big part of our focus that we don't do what attracted me, and many others, to the site when we were beginners in digital photography. And just as I don't want dpc to try to be all things photographic, I would also think it is a necessary part of every photographer's growth for them to go beyond dpc and to explore other sites that offer them other things. Nothing could be more stifling than limiting yourself to this site alone. But I would sincerely hope that when the people who came here as beginners venture to the next level that they take with them a sound fundamental base of photographic knowledge from which to expand upon as they meet new challenges elsewhere.
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06/06/2005 04:01:52 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by samtrundle:
Originally posted by coolhar:
What you call "extremeness" and "pretty crazy stuff" have their place. But that's not what dpc is about. Challenge entries shouldn't get voted high because they have shock value, or because they touch on controversial subjects, or because the entering photographer is trying to "make people realize this stuff happens". |
Coolhar,
I have been thinking of saying something for a while now, but I must say that I am continually disappointed by the way in which you attempt to limit the creativity and scope of the DPC community. Yes, DPC, as a forum in which success is determined by popular vote, is a place where pretty, stock-style photographs that provide uncontroversial interpretations of challenges will do well, but that is not to say that this site should be confined to people seeking to produce such images.
DPC provides it's users with a forum to share their work, and attempt to grow as photographers. Given then, the widely held perception of photography as an artform, such growth is not merely about enhancing ones technical skills, it involves learning to challenge ideas, provoke thought and evoke emotion. Your continued attempt to stifle imaginative expressions and interpretation does nothing to aid in this growth.
I'm well aware, that as it stands, my own photography is hardly provocative or challenging, but I personally would like the freedom to engage in more imaginative or provocative photography without being stifled by such vehemently conservative approaches. I'm sure there are many within this community that feel the same.
Photography (and, in turn, dpc) is more than f-stops and shutter speeds. It is creativity, imagination, and emotion. The world is not always a beautiful place, and in seeking always to portray it as such, we tell only half a story.
Anders |
I have read your post several times, Anders, and just wanted to tell you how strongly I identify with what you have written and how much I admire the lucidity with which you have written it.
I'll take away with me in particular your ending remark:
The world is not always a beautiful place, and in seeking always to portray it as such, we tell only half a story.
Thank you.
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06/06/2005 04:37:31 PM · #66 |
DPChallenge is now a photojournalism site? I get the other half of the story WAY too often in the daily news, TV, etc... Not saying it's not there, but why force it to be presented as "art". If you really "saw" the images taking place that are the crux of this thread would you not put down your camera and help that person?
There's enough ugliness in the world - you can keep the other half. Let me ask you this - would you frame the other half and put it on the wall to display in your home? If you can honestly say yes then there are definitely two extremes being represented here...
Originally posted by Kavey:
I'll take away with me in particular your ending remark:
The world is not always a beautiful place, and in seeking always to portray it as such, we tell only half a story.
Thank you. |
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06/06/2005 04:50:41 PM · #67 |
is the sole purpose of photography to create something to be framed? i don't think so.
no, dpc isn't a 'photojournalism site.' is it so wrong to have a site that offers aspects from a wide variety of opinions, experiences, and views? |
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06/06/2005 04:51:20 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
DPChallenge is now a photojournalism site? I get the other half of the story WAY too often in the daily news, TV, etc... Not saying it's not there, but why force it to be presented as "art". If you really "saw" the images taking place that are the crux of this thread would you not put down your camera and help that person?
There's enough ugliness in the world - you can keep the other half. Let me ask you this - would you frame the other half and put it on the wall to display in your home? If you can honestly say yes then there are definitely two extremes being represented here...
Originally posted by Kavey:
I'll take away with me in particular your ending remark:
The world is not always a beautiful place, and in seeking always to portray it as such, we tell only half a story.
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The difference between you and I seems to be that I don't feel art is all about pretty pictures to hang on my wall.
I believe it's also about making us question things that are happening around us, about evoking emotion and thought and discussion and debate. Each photograph doesn't have to do all those things but it's great, to me, that there are photographs around that do those various things. It's not about forcing anything, it's about some people having wider interpretations of art and of legitimate subject matter than you do and being entitled to them.
Nor do I think showing something in a photograph equates to condoning it and certainly not to being indifferent towards it. Many images here are staged, it's extremely likely that any depicting suicide are also staged. Their existence does not imply that the photographers in question would not put down their cameras and help at ALL. All it implies to me is that suicide is a subject that has touched them deeply and that they want to explore the depth of that emotion further and to share it with others.
There is indeed ugliness in the world. If all you want of photography is pretty pictures that help you pretend there isn't, that's up to you.
Everyone doesn't feel the same way and many want to improve technically in their chosen areas just as much as those taking pretty pictures want to improve in theirs.
Message edited by author 2005-06-06 16:56:23.
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06/06/2005 05:58:34 PM · #69 |
I look at photography as an art form, and I'm sure (or at least I hope) that many of you are familiar with famous paintings. Many times, war, suicide, "the worst side of things", were painted... creating some of the worlds most famous and engaging paintings. It is odd to me that photos of the same nature are always reffered to as 'photojournalism', simply because they can also be a work of art on their very own. I'm sure there are many people with pictures of events that occured on Sept. 11th (sorry for bringing that up, but it is the best modern example I could think of), hanging on their walls.
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06/06/2005 06:09:38 PM · #70 |
Guys, I really like seeing these kinds of discussions- but as various SC members have REPEATEDLY pointed out- this one needs to hold until Wednesday. If you guys can't leave it alone, we may have to lock it and reopen it. This is a highly emotional discussion and it is not fair to a select group of images in voting. Please, can you guys put this discussion on pause for a couple more days?
We really appreciate your help.
Clara |
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06/06/2005 06:22:21 PM · #71 |
I haven't read this thread or posted anything but will as soon as voting is over.
Rex hits the pause button to help everyone out.
Rex to the rescue yet again.
Message edited by author 2005-06-06 18:23:22.
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06/06/2005 06:29:14 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by blemt:
Guys, I really like seeing these kinds of discussions- but as various SC members have REPEATEDLY pointed out- this one needs to hold until Wednesday. If you guys can't leave it alone, we may have to lock it and reopen it. This is a highly emotional discussion and it is not fair to a select group of images in voting. Please, can you guys put this discussion on pause for a couple more days?
We really appreciate your help.
Clara |
I'd like to let all know that I in no way meant for this to get out of hand by starting this thread. I was upset for a moment and went off on a rant. I agree that this discussion needs to be postponed until voting is over. |
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06/06/2005 06:38:18 PM · #73 |
You know, for an SC person you sure can be provocative.
Originally posted by muckpond:
is the sole purpose of photography to create something to be framed? i don't think so.
no, dpc isn't a 'photojournalism site.' is it so wrong to have a site that offers aspects from a wide variety of opinions, experiences, and views? |
edit - typo.
Message edited by author 2005-06-06 18:50:05.
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06/06/2005 06:45:08 PM · #74 |
Clara - It's fine. I'm done. I'm tired of being a lone conservative in a pot of liberals. I've made my point to the best of my ability and it's gone over heads or been lost somewhere in translation. Thanks for letting it go as you have to this point...not sure why I bothered anyway.
Originally posted by blemt:
Guys, I really like seeing these kinds of discussions- but as various SC members have REPEATEDLY pointed out- this one needs to hold until Wednesday. If you guys can't leave it alone, we may have to lock it and reopen it. This is a highly emotional discussion and it is not fair to a select group of images in voting. Please, can you guys put this discussion on pause for a couple more days?
We really appreciate your help.
Clara |
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06/07/2005 04:05:41 PM · #75 |
I figure while we are on hold we could use some music...
I see skies of blue...
and clouds of white...
The bright blessed day,...
the dark sacred night,...
And I think to myself,...
what a wonderful world...
Message edited by author 2005-06-07 19:56:48.
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