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06/02/2005 11:45:13 AM · #51 |
oh no... I was the exact same way when i was younger. I minimize all the windows on the screen and stop all chatting with everyone(isn't windows+d wonderful?). There was always a fear of something stupid being said by a friend, or perhaps a curse or some complaining. I would really have not liked my parents to have seen what was going on in the chat windows or websites. While not bad, I still would not have liked my parents in my personal business. I like to keep to myself and they have respected that, I think you might consider this. Privacy is the big game here and I for one would always like mine respected.
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06/02/2005 11:51:03 AM · #52 |
| When I was a teenager, one of my parents read a diary I was keeping. It hurts just to think about it. The results weren't pretty. I was doing nothing wrong, but it caused irreperable damage with the relationship with that parent. I needed an outlet to vent my frustrations, and this instrusion into my privacy was NOT received well. Just bear this cautionary tale in mind. The parent in question was concerned about me, I was just being a normal teenager... uncommunicative and moody. |
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06/02/2005 12:04:53 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
(SNIP!)...uncommunicative and moody. |
That meant you were using drugs! I read it in one of them "Parenting Teens" Pamphlets that gave signs of drug use!
That's why my parents thought I was a drug abuser. Uncommunicative and moody. When I denied it, that only reinforced their belief, because that's what the stupid pamphlet said.
"Your child *WILL* deny being a drug user!"
"Sometimes, your child will hide their drugs at a friend's house. So searching their room won't help you find their drugs."
Anyway, my point is that you have two choices.
Parent through fear and destroy your relationship with your child.
or...
Parent through understanding and use a bit of reason and build a strong communicative relationship with your child. |
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06/02/2005 12:19:51 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by rgo:
Trusting kids also mean trusting them to abide by the agreements that have been made between you and the kids. So why not just "ban" visits to chat sites where the crazies might be hanging around, the pornography sites, and any other site where you don't feel they belong? If you trust your kids, and they're trustworthy, then they won't go to such sites, and problem is mitigated, no? |
The problem with that is that most people who prey on children do so on websites or chatrooms where the children will be. They will often pretend to be teenagers and try to befriend the kid by talking about popular music and movies. If you're a 14 yr old girl and a 14-16 yr old boy starts talking to you and sending you a fake picture of a cute guy then you're going to open up to him.
It's partly about trust but it is also about being internet naive. Granted some kids are more internet savvy than some adults but not all are.
I'm not a parent. I also love my privacy. That said I would rather have a parent who took the time and interest to know I was safe instead of waiting until I was in trouble or dead. That goes for the internet or drugs. (I'm still uncommunicative and moody :P)
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06/02/2005 12:20:58 PM · #55 |
Edit: Replying to Nelzie's post!
Yeah, that's what they thought. I should add that not only was my trust destroyed in that parent as a result of the instrusion, but they didn't like a lot of things I wrote about them as a result of me needing somewhere to vent, and this caused bad issues which have never been healed.
Message edited by author 2005-06-02 12:21:44. |
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06/02/2005 12:25:12 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by moodville:
Originally posted by rgo:
Trusting kids also mean trusting them to abide by the agreements that have been made between you and the kids. So why not just "ban" visits to chat sites where the crazies might be hanging around, the pornography sites, and any other site where you don't feel they belong? If you trust your kids, and they're trustworthy, then they won't go to such sites, and problem is mitigated, no? |
The problem with that is that most people who prey on children do so on websites or chatrooms where the children will be. They will often pretend to be teenagers and try to befriend the kid by talking about popular music and movies. If you're a 14 yr old girl and a 14-16 yr old boy starts talking to you and sending you a fake picture of a cute guy then you're going to open up to him.
It's partly about trust but it is also about being internet naive. Granted some kids are more internet savvy than some adults but not all are.
I'm not a parent. I also love my privacy. That said I would rather have a parent who took the time and interest to know I was safe instead of waiting until I was in trouble or dead. That goes for the internet or drugs. (I'm still uncommunicative and moody :P) |
Point well taken. An aside question, and this is actually really interesting to me, whatever happened to soccer practice, track competition, playing catch, doing homework, etc? Are kids so different now than we were their age?
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06/02/2005 12:27:34 PM · #57 |
Well, the thing is... your child's actions will mostly be an almost direct result of your parenting. So if you have done a good job, then chances are good that they will behave correctly, whether on the internet or in life. If you are confident that they will act accordingly when confronted by a stranger, and make the right choices in whatever real life situation, then they will most likely do the same online as well. If you allow them to go out around town or such with friends alone, you should let them go on the internet alone as well.
At least that's my opinion. |
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06/02/2005 12:30:10 PM · #58 |
In reply to rgo:
Yes. Now they have On-Demand TV and Xbox and PS2's etc. Whens the last time you gave a kid a soccer ball and told him/her to go outside and play??? The kid will look at you funny, grab the pamphlet on drugs to use for a filter for his joint's before coming home and playing XBOX or watching MORE TV. Try it. Give a kid a sports ball and see the look on their face when they look at it. You may want to get one with instructions on how to use it.
Message edited by author 2005-06-02 12:31:19.
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06/02/2005 12:33:25 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
what about doing a test of some sort, check to see if your local police department has someone working in a internet watching area, find out where he chats the most and see if the police can enter the site and test his response to them being there as an "innocent" person.
I remember a story (probably an urban myth) of a man chatting with a young girl online for a long time and after finding certain information that she thought was innocent enough he tracked her down and watched her all day. When she came home that night he was there with her parents, he was an undercover police agent and told her and her parents about how he found her from just small info she freely gave out.
It maybe enough to scare him into knowing no matter how careful he is, if someone wants to get info from you they know how to word things so you talk freely. Just a thought, I'm still behind you 100%. |
I have heard that cyberangels will do this if you ask them to. |
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06/02/2005 12:44:41 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by rgo:
I'll preface by saying that I have no intention of offending anyone. I do believe this is a very important issue, and in many ways, one that defines our current society more than many others would.
In the course of this thread, I've seen a number of statements like: "I trust my kid, but there are many other people out in the internet that I don't trust."
To me, there's a disconnect here. Trusting kids also mean trusting them to abide by the agreements that have been made between you and the kids. So why not just "ban" visits to chat sites where the crazies might be hanging around, the pornography sites, and any other site where you don't feel they belong? If you trust your kids, and they're trustworthy, then they won't go to such sites, and problem is mitigated, no?
If you don't think this kind of an arrangement is enough, then I'd say there is a trust issue between you and the kids. Some of you would say that I don't know what I'm talking about, as I'm not a parent and I'd feel differently if I did have kids of my own (you might very well be right). Kids are kids, and they disobey, some others might say as a counter to what I'm trying to suggest here.
Well, I didn't have an easy relationship with my folks when I was still in their house. BUT I did realize when they were being serious about something, and regardless of how much I disagreed with their decisions on these issues, I did obey them because that was the bargain we made in exchange for some freedoms I had. I trusted my folks to uphold their end of the deal, and I upheld mine in return.
If I was still in my parents' house, and I find out they were snooping on anything I was doing (instead of openly making clear some things that they didn't want me to do and trusting me to respect them enough to take that seriously) I'd reckon there would have been bigger trouble in the house, and from the little knowledge I have of myself and my character, I'd have made damn sure that I broke every law they set against me, and would have gone to all kinds of extra effort to rub their noses in it.
But that's just me. It's about respect, and snooping, I strongly feel, is disrespectful. I don't mean to "tell anyone else what to do," and I just wanted to express my opinion on this. You're the parents, you make the call, and you determine what kind of relationship works in your household. |
The issue is that kids are innocent; they haven’t had the experience to know when someone is giving them an honest statement or just a line. This is one of the things you (should) learn with age. But a great con artist can still fool most people. If you’ve ever called one of the camera stores that Reseller Ratings gives a less than 1 rating, you’ll know what I mean.
Yes, my kids will still get lines and lies from their peers, and suffer a “broken heart” or two, but that’s how they will learn. And a broken heart is different than a broken neck.
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06/02/2005 12:46:48 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by notonline:
In reply to rgo:
Yes. Now they have On-Demand TV and Xbox and PS2's etc. Whens the last time you gave a kid a soccer ball and told him/her to go outside and play??? The kid will look at you funny, grab the pamphlet on drugs to use for a filter for his joint's before coming home and playing XBOX or watching MORE TV. Try it. Give a kid a sports ball and see the look on their face when they look at it. You may want to get one with instructions on how to use it. |
Been living out of the US since 1999, all that time in developing countries. I'm much more used to kids whose parents can't afford PS2s or XBoxes or the internet, or TVs. I see the kids here playing ball all the time.
Y'all get my drift? ;-)
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06/02/2005 12:52:59 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by moodville:
It's partly about trust but it is also about being internet naive. Granted some kids are more internet savvy than some adults but not all are. |
Interesting choice of words. IMO, kids are more technically capable on the internet than many adults. Where they are naive is in the "social engineering" of the internet, or in socializing in general. It's a problem older than computers, computers just allow it to happen at home. And computers don't allow your kids to see who they're actually talking to; kids tend to trust thier peers more than adults. |
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06/02/2005 01:03:18 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by rgo:
Point well taken. An aside question, and this is actually really interesting to me, whatever happened to soccer practice, track competition, playing catch, doing homework, etc? Are kids so different now than we were their age? |
When I was a kid, I could run all over the neighborhood and my parents knew all the other parents, so there were some limits. Mothers worked in the home as housewives. Now you can't do that. Often both parents work and the oldest child has to care for the younger ones for a couple of hours. And there seems to be less cohesiveness in neighborhoods (or more diversity?) TV and movies have set a bad example. Think about the difference between "modern" shows (e.g. Maried with Children, Malcom in the Middle, Fast times at Ridgemont High) and the shows you grew up with. Kids are doing things that we wouldn't have dreamed off--the local paper repored that junior high scool kids were performing oral sex on each other in the back of the schoolbus. There was a high school girl who was killed by an older man she met on-line, etc. Times have changed.
On the bright side, kids still have soccer practice, boy scouts, etc. But the casual "hanging out" with Mom quitly supervising in the background has gone away. |
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06/02/2005 01:04:03 PM · #64 |
| I think I will take my kids and get back to nature...this technical era is dystroying us. |
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06/02/2005 01:06:32 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by rgo:
Y'all get my drift? ;-) |
What? That they choose to spend their money on 20D's instead of TV?
I don't know what impact SDW's choices for his family will have nor how his son will choose to respond but I appreciate the pressure that being responsible for his son brings to bear. There is no simple answer and while I would tend to fall more on the side of restricting access I do think that talking with a child is important rather than spying on a child. To me, if the child is less complaint and doesn't want to explore his feelings or motivations with his parents then I would probably tend to resort to spying. I can see Bobster's experience and some of the hurt that he must have experienced seems evident as he has posted to this thread a few times with a viewpoint that doesn't seem to be in the majority (and I'm sure he's not the only one to feel this kind of mistrust). At the end of the day I have to consider the fact that while I'd like to be my daughter's friend and I think she's one of the coolest people around, my role in her life is as Dad so I gotta just suck it up that at times I'll make unpopular decisions and for better or worse I may make mistakes that hurt her. My choices must be based on my desire to help her develop and to shield her from firsthand knowledge and experience with abusive individuals until such time as she has some experiences against which to judge so that she can hopefully make a more objective evaluation of individual A's behavior compared with individual B's behavior. At 14 or 15 or 16 I think her experience is more limited to gossiping or cavalier attitudes towards someone's feelings and not outright manipulation for sexual gratification that a 35 or 45 year old may exhibit.
Probably doesn't give you an answer on what software to use but I don't think that anyone who says there are abusers out there are "Scare Mongerers" nor do I think that just spying will give you what you probably want (which I assume is young person who is capable of objective interaction and who is free of long-term physical, mental or emotional damage inflicted with malevolent for someone else's sadistic sexual satisfaction).
Good luck with this process. Hope it turns out well for you and your son.
Kev
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06/02/2005 01:19:12 PM · #66 |
Bobster and Netzie - Your parents obviously didn't seem to handle things appropriately, IMO, but keep in mind they kept you alive. Heck I still don't handle things appropriately all the time.
This will piss some people off, but here is where I think some of your parents made a mistake - i.e. reading your diary - the mistake was in letting you know they read it, but not in reading it. There were times early in my parenting that I would read something and immediately confront the child with what I read. WRONG! Bad idea! As with the internet monitoring, I always told my children that, in the interest of their own protection (and yes, we discussed what that means and it is not necessarily a lack of trust), I will always have the ability to randomly monitor ANY communications. But what it took awhile to learn is how to use the information I find. Some tips:
- Think about what to do and talk it over with the other parent if necessary
- Do not be confrontational with it
- Use it as an opportunity to steer your child in other directions without them knowing what you're doing
- You can talk about the subject in the third party form - as in a story - i.e. with your child within earshot, tell your wife a story that you heard about some consequences of some actions similar to what you discovered your child doing.
Kids may be smart, but they are not that smart. I was a very smart kid - or "clever" as they would say. You would not believe the things I did and got into on a regular basis because my parents were simply oblivious. As one poster pointed out, there are bad influences and it only takes one bad influence to turn a perfect kid into the devil incarnate in what seems like an instant.
Again, to those who are not parents, your input is appreciated (and amusing), but remember that parents were teenagers. They already have that perspective, though it does differ and you can't apply what you did to what they do.
RE: Have things changed? - Resoundingly, YES! No doubt. It has become a twisted world with twisted morals, child predators, ambiguous political correctness, litigiousness, etc. And then there's the bad stuff. ;-) Anyone who honestly looks at the daily life of an average child in the US 30 years ago compared to today will see how things have become. In my day as a delinquent teen, ALL parents were the enemy because none of them would hesitate to tell you to straighten up or chew you out for bad behavior or report you to the police. Nowadays, people get sued for looking at someone else's kid crosseyed. Heck, kids are suing their own parents. Neighbors now tend to keep to themselves & not let you know that they saw your kid smoking cigarettes around the corner, etc. And if they did tell the kid's parents, the parents might just as likely tell them to mind their own f-ing business. Different? Yes.
...steps off soap box. ...slips, falls, breaks hip. ;-)
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06/02/2005 01:28:21 PM · #67 |
I wrote a big long post relating some personal experiences of mine, as well as, outlining the work that I do with local organization and law enforcement in regards to computer crime prevention. (as a result of my own experience)
I’m not posting it, not because it was too personal, but only because it was turning into a horrific story/rant that doesn’t exactly belong in this forum.
I say this with 100% conviction. In time a child/teen will get over what they may see as an invasion of their privacy. But, there are many things a child will NEVER get over, because you chose to give them the benefit of the doubt. You can trust your kids, but you cannot trust the world at large to love your children as you do. The tricks, manipulation and methods that some predators use are absolutely astonishing. I have seen law enforcement agents fooled that are experts in the field. What hope can a child or a teen have against these people with their limited life experience and maturity?
It is your job to educate yourself, to make the effort to understand technology as your children instinctively do and to stay one step ahead of them. It’s all well and good to talk to your kids and establish an open honest communication about the dangers out there. However, responsible, good kids do dumb things all the time and a dumb mistake should not change the course of their life.
I’m 27. I don’t have kids. What I have seen and learned in my few short years has fundamentally changed the person I once was and I would never wish that same education on any parent.
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06/02/2005 01:40:50 PM · #68 |
My kids are not there yet, but I did live with a woman and her child for 5 years. I experienced 13 - 18, of what is now a good friend. You have to be hard and unfair sometimes, even ruthless in your assessment of a situation, but not the child.
Both my younger children (4 and 7) use the INTERNET. It is only a matter of time before they will be making decisions as to which chat group to join or view inappropriate material for their age.
That aside, I agree with kpriest whole heartedly. I keep one rule, that my parents used. The house, and everything in it was open to their viewing. No special rooms. Plus to add, we had free roam of the house as well, they kept nothing that we could not also view.
When the time comes, and I lay down the same rules for the computer, they will be able to read my stuff, if they want to. They already watch what I do.
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06/02/2005 01:48:08 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
This will piss some people off, but here is where I think some of your parents made a mistake - i.e. reading your diary - the mistake was in letting you know they read it, but not in reading it.
Kids may be smart, but they are not that smart. I was a very smart kid - or "clever" as they would say. You would not believe the things I did and got into on a regular basis because my parents were simply oblivious. As one poster pointed out, there are bad influences and it only takes one bad influence to turn a perfect kid into the devil incarnate in what seems like an instant. |
How do you know your parents were oblivious? They may have just decided to let you make a few mistakes. Or they may have realized what you did wasn't so much different than the trouble they got into when they were kids. :-) |
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06/02/2005 01:56:10 PM · #70 |
Whatever you do, just remember that the computer is a communication device for the kid.
Another perspective is: would he stop talking on the phone when you enter his room? Probably yes.
Try talking togather rather than reducing the trust you have in your relationship. Trust is the key. Explain your concerns to the teen. The last thing you want him/her to think that you are the enemy (counterintelligence, rather then intelligence actions).
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06/02/2005 02:00:02 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by swinging_johnson_v1:
I am a parent of 3.
I have to agree with kpriest about the "if your not a parent" thing.
I too was going to mention RAdmin.
But one more thing. I go a step further. I have administration capabilities on the kids computers. They can't just download crap without a password.
I also don't let them have television, computers or the xbox in the privacy of their rooms. Music is ok.
Teenagers are a weird breed of cat, and to encourage them to be even more disjointed from the family enviroment by letting them retreat to their bedroom to me is just asking for trouble in the long run.
Just another of many opinions I have. |
No tv, computers or video games??? Whats next, a chaperone? While i am indeed not a parent, I do know what it's like being a teenager in the cyber age. I had my own tv, pc and video games when I was a teenager and I turned out alright. My parents were very communicative and I honestly never looked at anything I wasnt supposed to. Learn to trust your kids a little, they are not as bad as you think. Just my two cents.
June
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06/02/2005 02:38:08 PM · #72 |
Okay, so I'm a kid under 24/7 surveillance by my untrusting parents. They have logging software and VNC to spy on me. What do I do?
1. Hate the nosey interfering old biddies (not the kind of language a teenager would use, but you get the idea) till long after I've left home.
2. Go round to Billy's house 'cos his parents are stoned all the time and don't care what we do on the net.
3. Fire up a game because VNC can't monitor it, the packets will be unreadable, and all games have a nice built in chat facility. Parents eh, fscking dimwits.
Speaking as somebody who has real life experience of a paedophile I'm still very glad that my parents trusted me enough to let me out of the house on my own, and taught me well enough to not fall into the trap that I didn't even see. The first I knew about the sick pervert's "activities" was when the police came round thinking I was a probable victim.
Disclaimer: I don't have kids, so feel free to laugh at my "amusing" experience and my opinion that kids will find a way around *any* monitoring you put in place. Please, do talk to them about the dangers both on the net and in the real world though. |
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06/02/2005 02:41:35 PM · #73 |
I have a question related to this. Is there any program out there that will have a login like windows with a timer like AOL. We all share a computer, but I will be getting my own so the kids will share this computer and it will go in family room which is removed slightly from immediate area. My son spends too much time to my liking on the computer(he gets told to do domething else alot). The computer will be shared between him and his sister. I already have lots and lots of things blocked, read histories, password for downloads, but would like to allow only a set amount of time per day per user. Any ideas?
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06/02/2005 02:44:57 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by chiqui74:
I do know what it's like being a teenager in the cyber age. I had my own tv, pc and video games when I was a teenager and I turned out alright. My parents were very communicative and I honestly never looked at anything I wasnt supposed to. Learn to trust your kids a little, they are not as bad as you think. |
I had internet access when I was a teen, and I did look at things that the law thinks I'm not supposed to, and I turned out alright too.
I agree, if you cant trust your teens and their judgement, something better than remote monitoring needs to be done first.
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06/02/2005 02:45:48 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Manic:
OK, just a reminder to please keep your posts on topic, and not to go off on a tangent about gun control or whatever... |
Yes father.
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