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05/07/2005 11:25:26 AM · #26 |
| It would be cowardly if you could comment anonymously forever and did so, but I don't see how having your identity revealed a couple days after the fact is cowardly. It's not like you think you're going to be hidden forever and suddenly have the courage to say things you wouldn't otherwise say. It just means the angry commentees have to wait until after the challenge to unleash their wrath. |
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05/07/2005 11:43:51 AM · #27 |
A challenge --- to all who would call an anonymous commenter a coward.
Wait until the voting is over and the commenter's identity is revealed, then post both in the forums and let us all judge whether it was constructive and/or appropriate. No one would call you a coward for doing that. And it would be more likely for something constructive to come out of it.
Or, if the comment is so offensive that you just can't wait, report it to the SC/admins and let them deal with it.
IMHO, it's kind of useless to complain about something here in the forums when the rest of us can't see who or what it is you are complaining about.
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05/07/2005 12:22:13 PM · #28 |
I too have chosen to wear the bag. I chose to wear the bag because I was getting people sending me messages about my critique of their picture. I would also get comments pointing out particular things about the photo such as; "Did you notice that there is an image of ?????? in the bark of the tree?" It would make me go back and look at the image to look for what they were talking about. I began to think that this actually gave them a slight advantage over others who were not allowed to comment on their photos to the reviewer. This is not DPweC (Digital Photo with explanation Challenge) This contest is to post a photograph that presents itself in a manner that it does not need an explanation. I will give my honest appraisal of the photo. When the challenge is over, you are free to contact me and I will respond to all emails received. There is nothing cowardly about trying to keep the competition fair. Just my 2cents!
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05/07/2005 12:29:09 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by 2Shay:
There is nothing cowardly about trying to keep the competition fair. Just my 2cents! |
Exactly........................
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05/07/2005 12:30:17 PM · #30 |
This is one of the silliest premises upon which I have ever seen a thread developed. Anonymous voters (who will be revealed at the stroke of midnight on turnover day) are COWARDS? I can only shake my head, that's just ridiculous, to lable people who use a site feature in this perjorative way.
I don't bother with the bag because I vote 100% of the images before I comment on any of them, with rare exceptions (if I vote a stunningly good image early on, I may comment on it as I pass it on the first wave of voting), and therefore by the time people make rejoinders to my comments I'm already through with that challenge anyway, voting-wise.
Personally I kinda like getting a dialogue going during the voting. After the voting, it's too many comments to track down and dialogue over. But I respect the opinions of anyone who doesn't like the same thing.
Robt.
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05/07/2005 12:32:13 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
This is one of the silliest premises upon which I have ever seen a thread developed. Anonymous voters (who will be revealed at the stroke of midnight on turnover day) are COWARDS? I can only shake my head, that's just ridiculous, to lable people who use a site feature in this perjorative way.
I don't bother with the bag because I vote 100% of the images before I comment on any of them, with rare exceptions (if I vote a stunningly good image early on, I may comment on it as I pass it on the first wave of voting), and therefore by the time people make rejoinders to my comments I'm already through with that challenge anyway, voting-wise.
Personally I kinda like getting a dialogue going during the voting. After the voting, it's too many comments to track down and dialogue over. But I respect the opinions of anyone who doesn't like the same thing.
Robt. |
again.....ditto!!!
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05/07/2005 12:57:01 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by deapee:
I think those that use the bags are cowards and afraid. |
Originally posted by deapee:
Maybe you're the one who needs to grow up and get used to people saying how they feel. |
I am resigning as campaign manager for Woody's run for Site Coucil, and am throwing my support to deapee for his exemplary diplomacy and tact.
Read: sarcasm
Let's really make things interesting and remove the anonymity of the submitters during voting as well. That way people can feel free to vote an entry down because they don't like the member.
Jeez.
Feel free to comment as you see fit on my entries, anonymously or not and I will do the same.
I agree with Rex, coolhar and bear and anyone else whose basic philosophy is to respect the opinions of others and give them more credit, or at least the benefit of the doubt as to their motivations regarding their choice to remain temporarily anonymous or not.
-Ken
-United Sackheads, local #37 |
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05/07/2005 01:05:59 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
-Ken
-United Sackheads, local #37 |
I am part of the Sackheads. Starting my local division in GA
Message edited by author 2005-05-07 13:06:19.
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05/07/2005 01:11:14 PM · #34 |
When the bags were first implemented, I was afraid that people would abuse them to give nasty/mean comments and then wipe that comment just before their identity would be revealed. That hasn't happened at all.
So far, my bag comments have been the same mix of positive/negative as the others, and I appreciate them every bit as much.
Whilst I don't use a bag myself, I fully support the right of others to do so. |
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05/07/2005 01:18:50 PM · #35 |
Hooray for the bagheads...I personally don't use a bag but understand the want to avoid the whiny PMs (not the appreciative ones) that are sent during the voting period.
Similar to those pleading PMs a thread about how much the shot is loved by the shooter and that it is the best one they have ever taken and that we are all nutz ends up in the forum anyways...
/my 2 cents
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05/07/2005 01:22:17 PM · #36 |
I think the bagheads are no more cowardly than the submitters, who also hide their identity until after the challenge.
But then again, I think anonymity is one of the most important aspects of getting an honest vote and comment. And it's one of the reasons, besides the very nice people, that I prefer DPC to the other voting sites.
I would actually fully support complete anonymity on this site; it's nice to see who commented, but if there were a true discussion board, it wouldn't be necessary, and you could have an anonymous, informative, and completely honest discussion. It might be abused a bit, but then the posters identity would be available to the admins and site council, so they could control it.
I think the proof of the pudding is the voting versus comments. I have 9 very nice comments about my submssion for Dreams, but the voters disagree, giving me a 5.1. So people who have nice things to say tend to comment, and those who don't like the photo don't. Perhaps because they know they are not fully anonymous, and don't want to "face me" with an opinion? Perhaps if they knew they could say: "I don't really like this photo--it seems so ...blah blah blah..." without me ever responding to them, or worse, they would comment? I think so. And would that be helpful to me? It would for those who filled in the "blah blah blah".
Just my own opinion of course.
Editing: Typos!
Message edited by author 2005-05-07 13:23:07. |
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05/07/2005 01:52:58 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
I have 9 very nice comments about my submssion for Dreams, but the voters disagree, giving me a 5.1. So people who have nice things to say tend to comment, and those who don't like the photo don't. Perhaps because they know they are not fully anonymous, and don't want to "face me" with an opinion? Perhaps if they knew they could say: "I don't really like this photo--it seems so ...blah blah blah..." without me ever responding to them, or worse, they would comment? I think so. And would that be helpful to me? It would for those who filled in the "blah blah blah". |
When I first came to this site, there was a lot more constructive and critical comments on submission entries. This was a great thing. I learned more about improving what I was doing through these comments than through the 'love the shot' type comments. I read, I absorbed, I improved! Oh to get those days back...
The problem is that there are enough photogs here in each wave of new people that can not or will not accept constructive criticism. They believe that their shot is the greatest ever taken or that it is art and those that don't like it don't understand it or whatever. They also believe that they are (insert your choice of deity here)'s gift to photography and do not need improvement. They are the ones that have evolved the commenting here to the level that it is at now through their whiney or even abusive pm's to commentors that leave the good constructive criticism. The commentors as a group have gotten enough negative pm's from these small minded individuals that they quit giving the good comments. I can understand why many have given up on giving good comments, but I personally refuse to give up.
Not all my comments are of the constructive type but a good percentage are. That's how I learned and I will not take away that learning process from others. I do not comment on all photo's as much as I would like to have the time or words to do so. I comment when I feel the urge or the need to comment on a shot. If you don't like the criticism that I give that's fine. That's the photogs perogative. Please PM me with your small minded negativity. I am amused by it. I understand that your inability to accept constructive criticism is your problem and not mine! I will comment and I will not hide!
Edited to add: Now if I could only find enough people here who believe like I do, we could take the site back to the way it was and people would not be afraid to say, 'I'm sorry but I don't like your photo because...'
I'm beginning to believe this is one of my most heavily post processed forum posts to date...
Message edited by author 2005-05-07 13:57:25.
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05/07/2005 02:08:55 PM · #38 |
I'm not at all a fan of "Government control" but what if the ToS (Site Rules) were changed to disallow any uninvited response to a comment on a photo. If a comment violates the other terms, simply report it.
I think more trouble is stirred up by the reactions to comments rather than the comments themselves.
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05/07/2005 02:10:34 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Suntiki:
You will get all ages and stages commenting on your photos, and 'constructive' is not always in some folks' genetic makeup. The offensive ones you will have to take with a grain of salt. Serious, thoughtful photographers can and will come through for you (case in point, my definately flawed first and only entry thus far was treated more kindly than I geared up for). Aggressive or not, compliment yourself that you at least stirred up some strong emotion of some sort :) |
Well said! :) |
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05/07/2005 02:11:08 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
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ROFLAMO!!!!!!!!!! too funny! |
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05/07/2005 02:18:26 PM · #41 |
I feel I have gotten more honest assessments since the baghead rule was instituted. I don't always like the assessment, but that is good IMO.
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05/07/2005 02:19:11 PM · #42 |
[quote=risu81] How about the Oreo method - I think you have a good
Oreo Method...I haven't heard that term....great idea though! For on here and with my kids! |
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05/07/2005 02:22:30 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
When I first came to this site, there was a lot more constructive and critical comments on submission entries. This was a great thing. I learned more about improving what I was doing through these comments than through the 'love the shot' type comments. I read, I absorbed, I improved! Oh to get those days back... |
I beg to differ with you. I can go back to August of 2003 and look at the comments you received (one of the great features of this site) and see that nothing has changed:
Originally posted by TooCool's Comments Received in August 2003:
You marked these as Helpful:
>> Thhhaaaaat is really, really well done. Where did you find that?
>> nice detail and color
>> i really do like this one! i don't know what it is about it---8
>> mmmmmmm.........Piiiizzaaaaa...*drools on keyboard*
>> Good angle for the photo.
>> .......... 8
>> great shot!!
You marked these as Not Helpful:
>> I think I wish this were in color.
>> Don't see the connection with desolation here. |
Granted, I took a select sampling just to prove my point, but they weren't hard to find. My point is that people can get a distorted view of how they perceive things - it helps to go back and look at your own record and make sure it does not contradict what you are stating. I am as guilty as anyone of doing this on occasion and I appreciate it if someone can clearly show me that I am misperceiving things. :)
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05/07/2005 02:29:02 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
Originally posted by deapee:
I think those that use the bags are cowards and afraid. |
Originally posted by deapee:
Maybe you're the one who needs to grow up and get used to people saying how they feel. |
I am resigning as campaign manager for Woody's run for Site Coucil, and am throwing my support to deapee for his exemplary diplomacy and tact.
Read: sarcasm
Let's really make things interesting and remove the anonymity of the submitters during voting as well. That way people can feel free to vote an entry down because they don't like the member.
Jeez.
Feel free to comment as you see fit on my entries, anonymously or not and I will do the same.
I agree with Rex, coolhar and bear and anyone else whose basic philosophy is to respect the opinions of others and give them more credit, or at least the benefit of the doubt as to their motivations regarding their choice to remain temporarily anonymous or not.
-Ken
-United Sackheads, local #37 |
LOL!! You are too funny!!!! |
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05/07/2005 02:42:18 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
You marked these as Helpful:
You marked these as Not Helpful:
My point is that people can get a distorted view of how they perceive things - it helps to go back and look at your own record and make sure it does not contradict what you are stating. I am as guilty as anyone of doing this on occasion and I appreciate it if someone can clearly show me that I am misperceiving things. :) |
Back in those days, I tried to differentiate between helpfull and not helpfull comments. I have since given up on that since helpful means different things to different people. As I go through my portfolio on occasion, if I see one that I didn't check off, I check it off then. You simply found a couple that I haven't gone back to...
Yes there have always been those 'great shot' comments through out the history of this site. But IMHO there used to be more critical comments as a percentage of overall commenting than there is now...
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05/07/2005 02:53:00 PM · #46 |
kpriest:
Going back through my earliest challenge entries like you did, I see what my trend was back in those days. The feel good comments were the ones that I checked off as useful, the comments that were truly the most helpful (I'm generalizing) were the ones that I didn't check of. I too was a tad bit defensive back in those days though I didn't pm people with stupid retorts like some have. However, I even though I didn't check off comments as usefull back then doesn't mean that they didn't improve my photography through time...
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05/07/2005 03:11:31 PM · #47 |
HEy, I'm a sackhead too!
I welcomed this feature after getting some whiny PM's that were obvious pleas for higher scores. I try to be constructive in my criticism, but if I don't like a shot, I am not going to lie about it. |
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05/07/2005 03:18:27 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
Originally posted by TooCool:
When I first came to this site, there was a lot more constructive and critical comments on submission entries. This was a great thing. I learned more about improving what I was doing through these comments than through the 'love the shot' type comments. I read, I absorbed, I improved! Oh to get those days back... |
I beg to differ with you. I can go back to August of 2003 and look at the comments you received (one of the great features of this site) and see that nothing has changed:
Originally posted by TooCool's Comments Received in August 2003:
You marked these as Helpful:
>> Thhhaaaaat is really, really well done. Where did you find that?
>> nice detail and color
>> i really do like this one! i don't know what it is about it---8
>> mmmmmmm.........Piiiizzaaaaa...*drools on keyboard*
>> Good angle for the photo.
>> .......... 8
>> great shot!!
You marked these as Not Helpful:
>> I think I wish this were in color.
>> Don't see the connection with desolation here. |
Granted, I took a select sampling just to prove my point, but they weren't hard to find. My point is that people can get a distorted view of how they perceive things - it helps to go back and look at your own record and make sure it does not contradict what you are stating. I am as guilty as anyone of doing this on occasion and I appreciate it if someone can clearly show me that I am misperceiving things. :) |
I haven't been here as long as TC, but I think I can appreciate his point that things have changed around here. I think the changes are too much of opinions and attitudes, and too subtle and nuanced to say that you are misperceiving, or OTOH, to say that you have proved your point. My perception of the changes is that civility in the forums, and in comments, is at a lower level. And the same goes for the constructive nature of comments. There has been a shift in emphasis away from the educational toward the competitive; there has been a shift in emphasis away from straight photographic technique to one that incorporates more editing and manipulatition. It's only natural for users that valued the site as it was when they arrived to try to preserve it against changes that guide it in another direction. And the constant flow of new users that brings fresh blood to our community would be even more welcome if they would take the time to understand the site, and to accept the site for what it is, before they try to change it. There are many here who think it is a very valuable and unique resource that doesn't need a revolutionary makeover.
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05/07/2005 03:26:14 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I haven't been here as long as TC, but I think I can appreciate his point that things have changed around here. I think the changes are too much of opinions and attitudes, and too subtle and nuanced to say that you are misperceiving, or OTOH, to say that you have proved your point. My perception of the changes is that civility in the forums, and in comments, is at a lower level. And the same goes for the constructive nature of comments. There has been a shift in emphasis away from the educational toward the competitive; there has been a shift in emphasis away from straight photographic technique to one that incorporates more editing and manipulatition. It's only natural for users that valued the site as it was when they arrived to try to preserve it against changes that guide it in another direction. And the constant flow of new users that brings fresh blood to our community would be even more welcome if they would take the time to understand the site, and to accept the site for what it is, before they try to change it. There are many here who think it is a very valuable and unique resource that doesn't need a revolutionary makeover. |
Points taken from both "cools" ;-)
I would not agree, though that there is any conscious effort to change the way the site has operated or a revolutionary makeover. It's more simply a case of more people, broader variety of opinions, personalities and cultures, imo.
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05/07/2005 03:26:45 PM · #50 |
| IMO this thread is getting rediculous... would anyone be saying anything if the original poster had gotten a ( by their terms) helpful comment? I really don't think so. If you don't care for a comment.... ignore it.... I have gettne a few comments that I personally felt were totally inappropriate, but I simply ignored them and moved on. I am only 27 years old, but I have managed to learn this much; the world will NOT end if someone disagrees with me or says something I don't care for. it's inevitable that someone's going to offend you. Heck, some people do it on purpose just to see what will happen. If you give them the response they want, they'll do it again. simply put, just move on, it's a comment it's an opinion, it's not going to dictate the rest of your life. |
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