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05/01/2005 04:05:32 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
...I was wondering if a "does not meet challenge theme" tick box during voting would be a good idea...Any thoughts? |
I'd rather just have zero added to the scale. |
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05/01/2005 04:26:15 PM · #27 |
a simple check box telling letting a voter annonymously tell the photograph that their photo doesnt meet the challenge is a great idea. And as far as I can see has no cons to it...
If you dont want to let someone know whether you feel that their entry meets the challenge or not then simply ignore the box, if you feel that the informantion from this box is useless then ignore the tally at the end... everyone else will find this imformation very usefull.
Message edited by author 2005-05-01 16:26:42.
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05/01/2005 04:36:57 PM · #28 |
i would think that a comment explaining why you don't think a photo meets the challenge would be much more helpful than an overall checkbox.
even if a user only received a couple of comments with a more thorough explanation, i believe that would be infinitely more useful than another statistic.
commenting on a photo also forces a voter to look at and consider the photo a bit more -- in doing so, perhaps the photographer's intent might become more clear. having a checkbox would allow people to blaze through the voting process and perhaps miss a more subtle interpretation of the challenge topic.
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05/01/2005 05:11:36 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
i would think that a comment explaining why you don't think a photo meets the challenge would be much more helpful than an overall checkbox.
even if a user only received a couple of comments with a more thorough explanation, i believe that would be infinitely more useful than another statistic.
commenting on a photo also forces a voter to look at and consider the photo a bit more -- in doing so, perhaps the photographer's intent might become more clear. having a checkbox would allow people to blaze through the voting process and perhaps miss a more subtle interpretation of the challenge topic. |
I will aggree 100% with above ...
in both current challenges i have people saying it 'should be *****' or "would be better if ***" or what is worse is "this doens't make a good jewelry advert. because *****" without ever thinking about ***** ****** or putting to much of their own prejudiced or emotional viewpoint in thier voting ...
and for the most part if i wanted a **** or added a ***** the picture would not look like what i have ..
& dmnit take the pictures to satisfy yourself -- even if you do have to justify the conncetion to the challenge after .. a check box is a lazy way out --
... i may fill in the blanks tomorrow or wed... ;)
edit: for bad spelling
Message edited by author 2005-05-01 17:26:47. |
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05/01/2005 05:12:49 PM · #30 |
Yup well said. A simple check box is just that .... to simple and too easy with nothing to explain why or help.
Originally posted by muckpond:
i would think that a comment explaining why you don't think a photo meets the challenge would be much more helpful than an overall checkbox.
even if a user only received a couple of comments with a more thorough explanation, i believe that would be infinitely more useful than another statistic.
commenting on a photo also forces a voter to look at and consider the photo a bit more -- in doing so, perhaps the photographer's intent might become more clear. having a checkbox would allow people to blaze through the voting process and perhaps miss a more subtle interpretation of the challenge topic. |
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05/01/2005 10:55:48 PM · #31 |
The whole point of the checkbox is to make it easy for the voter to send another bit of information without much effort. This way, the voter/commenter can concentrate on what s/he likes or dislikes about the photograph (and hopefully comment on it) and not have to explain about meeting the challenge or not, which we all see differently anyway. Imo, there is usually no real learning involved with finding out about why someone viewed the photo in question as meeting the challenge or not, but rather just a difference of opinion, which does not help the photographer become better at the craft/art/tech aspects of photography.
With sometimes more than 500 entries in challenges, as well as, 3 or 4 challenges going on simultaneously, there is little time for commenting. Many comments aren't very specific either. If I get many checkoffs that my challenge entry dnmc, then I can assume that without accompanying comments of poor quality, I am on the right track technically, anyway.
Originally posted by muckpond:
i would think that a comment explaining why you don't think a photo meets the challenge would be much more helpful than an overall checkbox.
even if a user only received a couple of comments with a more thorough explanation, i believe that would be infinitely more useful than another statistic.
commenting on a photo also forces a voter to look at and consider the photo a bit more -- in doing so, perhaps the photographer's intent might become more clear. having a checkbox would allow people to blaze through the voting process and perhaps miss a more subtle interpretation of the challenge topic. |
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05/01/2005 11:01:31 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The whole point of the checkbox is to make it easy for the voter to send another bit of information without much effort. |
IMHO, DNMTC
Not much effort, communicates the info, counts as a comment made -- a helpful one if it's on one of my photos. By simply appending "because ..." you can easily elaborate (or not) to any extent desired. |
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05/01/2005 11:12:00 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The whole point of the checkbox is to make it easy for the voter to send another bit of information without much effort. |
IMHO, DNMTC
Not much effort, communicates the info, counts as a comment made -- a helpful one if it's on one of my photos. By simply appending "because ..." you can easily elaborate (or not) to any extent desired. |
Yes, but in doing so this way, you are forced to do so without the same anonymity that protects the privacy of your rating. Hence, not many people would do this, partly because it invites an argument back.
But whether it avoids the argument or not, your solution is not the same thing as the checkbox, because it can't be used to support the vote in the same "mode" (anonymously).
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05/01/2005 11:20:27 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Yes, but in doing so this way, you are forced to do so without the same anonymity that protects the privacy of your rating. Hence, not many people would do this, partly because it invites an argument back. |
People will be able to tick of such a box but remain forever unidentified? I don't think so ... What difference does it make to tick-off a box with a standard definition or to make a note of its definition in the comment box? |
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05/01/2005 11:25:51 PM · #35 |
While a few people may include "DNMTC," it won't be many, and even less that will explain why. A few people telling me DNMTC may be interpreted as an aberation, but getting many tick marks will give a better idea of how the majority of people viewed my entry.
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The whole point of the checkbox is to make it easy for the voter to send another bit of information without much effort. |
IMHO, DNMTC
Not much effort, communicates the info, counts as a comment made -- a helpful one if it's on one of my photos. By simply appending "because ..." you can easily elaborate (or not) to any extent desired. |
Yes, but in doing so this way, you are forced to do so without the same anonymity that protects the privacy of your rating. Hence, not many people would do this, partly because it invites an argument back.
But whether it avoids the argument or not, your solution is not the same thing as the checkbox, because it can't be used to support the vote in the same "mode" (anonymously). |
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05/01/2005 11:34:33 PM · #36 |
if YOU can have a "Does Not Meet The Challenge" tick box, then I want a "Does Too" tick box.
Just Sayin. |
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05/02/2005 01:57:23 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by Pedro:
if YOU can have a "Does Not Meet The Challenge" tick box, then I want a "Does Too" tick box.
Just Sayin. |
Ok, we get the "Does not meet the challenge" when the box is ticked
You get the "Does too meet the challenge" when the box is unticked.
So there. ;) |
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05/02/2005 02:01:47 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Yes, but in doing so this way, you are forced to do so without the same anonymity that protects the privacy of your rating. Hence, not many people would do this, partly because it invites an argument back. |
People will be able to tick of such a box but remain forever unidentified? I don't think so ... What difference does it make to tick-off a box with a standard definition or to make a note of its definition in the comment box? |
The idea is that the number of ticks is tallied. Like scores, you won't know who ticked it off (so you don't get ticked off). It just helps to explain your average.
E.g., for challenge XYZ I might get:
Place: 192 out of 193
Avg (all users): 3.509
Does Not Meet the Challenge Checks (all users): 72
Avg (commenters): 5.429
Avg (camera): 3.502
Avg (no camera): 2.500
Votes: 275
Comments: 14
Favorites: 0
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05/02/2005 02:09:49 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Originally posted by Pedro:
if YOU can have a "Does Not Meet The Challenge" tick box, then I want a "Does Too" tick box.
Just Sayin. |
Ok, we get the "Does not meet the challenge" when the box is ticked
You get the "Does too meet the challenge" when the box is unticked.
So there. ;) |
where do I find the "It Does So Meet The Challenge you're Just Too Linear to Get It" box? (not meaning you Neil, just in genereal - of course :)) |
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05/02/2005 02:13:07 AM · #40 |
I think the point here is that DNMTC is a different category of "critique" than other comments that might be made. To some extent (and I realize this is a gray area) DNMTC is an absolute judgment, not a relative one. What I mean is, I might comment to the lighting, or the composition, or whatever, and these would be personal value judgments, but my judgment that the image doesn't meet the challenge is a little more black and white. It either does, or it doesn't, at least in my perception of the challenge. If there's any question in my mind, then by default it meets the challenge.
Now, I've got 4-500 images to rate. If I'm on a roll, I'll comment on 10% of them. The challenges are getting so big that I spend more time, by far, voting on entries than I do commenting upon them, because I want to vote 100% of the entries in every challenge. In a lot of challenges I see a large number of images that, IMO, simply don't address the challenge topic as written. This is particularly true in the "minimalism" challenge. I'm not especially interested in getting into debates with 20-30 people over whether their image does or does not meet the challenge; in my mind, it doesn't, and that's an end of it for me. I put a lot of thought into this, I'm not capricious about it, but otherwise excellent images might score several points below where I'd have placed them simply because I don't think they address the challenge.
I'd like to have a way to communicate that to people anonymously, to avoid the hassle. It's a touchy subject. But I think that people benefit from knowing that a significant number of voters felt they were not on topic. I see this as being different from a "critique", as it doesn't address the merits of the image itself, just its suitability for the given challenge.
Robt.
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05/02/2005 02:37:51 AM · #41 |
I think a DNMTC tick would require a MTC tick.
In several challenges I've received conflicting comments; some saying meets the challenge well, and others saying the photo did not meet the challenge. I would want to know both sides. |
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05/02/2005 03:06:35 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
I think a DNMTC tick would require a MTC tick.
In several challenges I've received conflicting comments; some saying meets the challenge well, and others saying the photo did not meet the challenge. I would want to know both sides. |
Normally, with 2 alternatives, yes/no, there's only one box needed. If you don't check yes, it's implied no.
Now I understand that the above statement isn't entirely applicable, since some may just not answer by checking the box. There's actually three alternatives: yes, no, defer.
This is easily resolved by using radio buttons rather than a check, "MTC" (default) and "DNMTC". If you don't check DNMTC, then MTC is selected.
Alternatively, with a checkbox, it can be defaulted to on, and labeled MTC. That would allow those people who feel it doesn't meet the challenge to uncheck it. Again, only one button is required.
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05/02/2005 03:45:49 AM · #43 |
| Many ways of doing the same thing. As long as there is milk, the baby cares little from which tit it came. |
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05/02/2005 06:10:52 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
Many ways of doing the same thing. As long as there is milk, the baby cares little from which tit it came. |
Speak for yourself. I'm told by a reliable source (my mother) that I always preferred left teat...
R.
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05/02/2005 07:37:02 AM · #45 |
i dont know if anyone else is experiencing this but, since the large debate of what minimalism truly is and now this thread voters have a new crutch...meaning a new easy out...i have 3 comments on my moods challenge so far...2 of them say im marking you low as imo you dont meet the challenge....i am portraying a "mood" an "emotion" its almost impossible unless i shot a blank piece of paper....unable to reveal my photo to back this up makes it difficult to support my argument
have a nice day :) |
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05/02/2005 10:12:49 AM · #46 |
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05/02/2005 10:20:49 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Very often, with the low number of comments, I'm unable to tell why some of my challenge entries that I think will do well wind up doing so poorly. I"m left with a nagging question as to whether it was poor image quality vs "did not meet challenge theme" that resulted in a poor showing. To help clarify an answer to this question I was wondering if a "does not meet challenge theme" tick box during voting would be a good idea. The total number of ticks could be tallied at the end of the challenge and give the submitter additional insight into the results. Any thoughts? |
I don't think this is such a good idea, I believe what makes photographs meet challenge themes is very subjective....and would limit creativity.............
Barry |
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05/02/2005 01:50:48 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Barry:
..snip..
I don't think this is such a good idea, I believe what makes photographs meet challenge themes is very subjective....and would limit creativity.............
Barry |
I am not sure how a checkbox would limit creativity. We are already getting harshly evaluated when we presumably miss the challenge. The box doesn't change anything, except give people a way to tell you that's how they feel. (But collected only as a statistic, not shown who checked it.)
In fact, I suspect this checkbox might even reduce the tendency for people to hand out one's as punishment when they feel that you missed the challenge--it gives them another outlet. Then maybe they'll only give you a 2. ;) |
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05/02/2005 01:53:54 PM · #49 |
I do not think such a box is necessary, as my experience has shown me that if people do not think you "get it" they are more than happy to be curt, rude or insulting to get the point across.
But then some might think I am bitter. *shrug*
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05/02/2005 03:03:22 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Originally posted by Barry:
..snip..
I don't think this is such a good idea, I believe what makes photographs meet challenge themes is very subjective....and would limit creativity.............
Barry |
I am not sure how a checkbox would limit creativity. We are already getting harshly evaluated when we presumably miss the challenge. The box doesn't change anything, except give people a way to tell you that's how they feel. (But collected only as a statistic, not shown who checked it.)
In fact, I suspect this checkbox might even reduce the tendency for people to hand out one's as punishment when they feel that you missed the challenge--it gives them another outlet. Then maybe they'll only give you a 2. ;) |
I'll have to think this out a bit more..... you do make a good point...
I think it would be nice to get a ribbon....but on the other hand I have been doing what I want for decades so I don't think the check box would prevent me from persueing my on vision....
Barry |
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