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04/12/2003 12:17:21 AM · #1 |
| Is anyone aware of plans for nikon or canon implementing the Foveon x3 sensor chip into any new models soon? i am in the market for a new camera, and the only camera using the x3 technology is the Sigma SD9...since technologies advance so fast, i am thinking that canon and nikon would jump at the chance to develop a camera with a next generation chip. anyone have any info? |
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04/12/2003 01:34:54 AM · #2 |
| "Everyone" is expecting something "soon" but I don't have any specifics. I would search at dpreview.com and at Cnet.com to see if they have any later news. |
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04/12/2003 01:52:12 AM · #3 |
| lots of rumors, just enough to keep people interested |
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04/12/2003 03:29:41 AM · #4 |
Well, maybe we should all feign indifference until they take notice and change their ways...
BTW--just a little something to let you know that not everyone on the Left Coast is "protesting" (click to see larger)
Message edited by author 2003-04-12 03:30:02. |
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04/12/2003 06:28:08 AM · #5 |
If anyone pretends to claim the inside scoop, then I think that they may be misleading us all. It is very difficult to get the inside track with either Nikon or Canon. But, here are a few observations to consider anyway.
For the most part, Canon and Nikon make their own chips, so subcontracting the Foveon x3 sensor chip into their product lines would be a shift in strategy. Although, this idea is conceivable just the same.
Both companies want and really need to differentiate themselves from the other competitors in the marketplace. So, it is hard to expect that they will make use of the Foveon x3 sensor chip for this reason alone.
Historically, neither manufacturer has followed any industry standards, they tend to go their own way.
The Foveon x3 sensor chip is not all that it is promoted to be. It has its problems too. It is in the CMOS camp and many believe that the CCD is the better approach. Nikon for example has just CCD chips in their cameras (presently). Canon has offered both CCD and CMOS solutions.
Both Canon and Nikon have already surpassed the Foveon x3 sensor chip in x-y resolution, so why go backwards?
Some believe that the holy grail of all imaging chips is to achieve full frame size. The Foveon x3 sensor chips are not full size - the effective surface area for the Foveon 5M is just 7.1mm x 5.3mm and the effective surface area for the Foveon 10m is 20.7mm x 13.8mm
There is no doubt that Foveon, a privately-held company, is actively searching for new partners who will offer their chips inside their cameras. If they do capture the interest of Canon and Nikon it may be in a lower-end product or in other specialized applications other than cameras - scanners, medical, scientific, etc. Foveon has stated that they strongly desire the more attractive mass-market applications, like cameras in order to move volume. But, they have been offering their product for a while now and it does not appear to be catching the hearts of consumers.
Food for thought...
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04/12/2003 10:03:51 AM · #6 |
Canon is doing primarily CMOS now, at least in the DSLR arena.
Foveon is nice, but it's too noisy to compete against Canon at this moment.
Actually in terms of resolution at the same pixel count, there is no question that Foveon will do better and it will render the scene more accurately than CCD or CMOS (no interpolation) and it does not require sharpnening of images, because softness of the digital images came from interpolation and Foveon has none. It has, however, noise issues in certain color channel and it's new.
If it can produce chips that work as well as Canon's at high ISO's with a full frame, then i think it's possible that some other manufacturers will adopt it other than Sigma.
FYI, Foveon's first prototype was a camera that accepts Canon's lenses :) So I wouldn't count on that it will not be accepted by Canon. Nikon, on the other hand, is always slow to accept new technology..... so i doubt they will use it.
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04/12/2003 12:25:10 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Morgan:
If anyone pretends to claim the inside scoop, then I think that they may be misleading us all. It is very difficult to get the inside track with either Nikon or Canon. But, here are a few observations to consider anyway.
For the most part, Canon and Nikon make their own chips, so subcontracting the Foveon x3 sensor chip into their product lines would be a shift in strategy. Although, this idea is conceivable just the same.
Both companies want and really need to differentiate themselves from the other competitors in the marketplace. So, it is hard to expect that they will make use of the Foveon x3 sensor chip for this reason alone.
Historically, neither manufacturer has followed any industry standards, they tend to go their own way.
The Foveon x3 sensor chip is not all that it is promoted to be. It has its problems too. It is in the CMOS camp and many believe that the CCD is the better approach. Nikon for example has just CCD chips in their cameras (presently). Canon has offered both CCD and CMOS solutions.
Both Canon and Nikon have already surpassed the Foveon x3 sensor chip in x-y resolution, so why go backwards?
Some believe that the holy grail of all imaging chips is to achieve full frame size. The Foveon x3 sensor chips are not full size - the effective surface area for the Foveon 5M is just 7.1mm x 5.3mm and the effective surface area for the Foveon 10m is 20.7mm x 13.8mm
There is no doubt that Foveon, a privately-held company, is actively searching for new partners who will offer their chips inside their cameras. If they do capture the interest of Canon and Nikon it may be in a lower-end product or in other specialized applications other than cameras - scanners, medical, scientific, etc. Foveon has stated that they strongly desire the more attractive mass-market applications, like cameras in order to move volume. But, they have been offering their product for a while now and it does not appear to be catching the hearts of consumers.
Food for thought... |
that is extremely helpful, you really know your stuff. this will make my purchase of the 10d next week a lot easier. |
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04/12/2003 05:54:47 PM · #8 |
that is extremely helpful, you really know your stuff. this will make my purchase of the 10d next week a lot easier.
I went to the PMA Show in Las Vegas last month and played with the Canon 10D a great deal. It is a terrific camera and in my opinion, it appears to be well worth the investment if you are not already committed to a brand.
And I am a true-blue NIKON guy. So, I will likely go straight to hell for making such blasphemous remarks.
While at the PMA Show, I wrote a series of reviews that I posted for all my fellow DPCers. Here is a link to the one on Canon. (I will also include the link to the Nikon review so I do not lose sleep tonight as a result of my indiscretions.) Michael
Canon
Nikon
Message edited by author 2003-04-12 17:56:56.
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04/12/2003 07:21:02 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Morgan:
For the most part, Canon and Nikon make their own chips, so subcontracting the Foveon x3 sensor chip into their product lines would be a shift in strategy. Although, this idea is conceivable just the same.
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Nikon doesn't make the dSLR ccd's. They buy them from Sony. The Pentax *ist will have the same Sony 6mp CCD that went into the Nikon D100 for example.
So Nikon could, if they want to, switch to Foveon or Fuji. But I don't think they will. Sony has promised Nikon that they will develop anything they ask for if possible, even FF.
More interesting in my Fuji biased opinion is the development of the SuperCCD's. Fuji has already build a 20mp sCCD twice the size of a 35mm frame for the Fuji medium format cameras, including the new Hasselblad (build by Fuji). They also have their R&D running at full speed, examples are the two new sCCD's with the High Density pixel layout and the double photodiode sCCD to increase the Dynamic Range. Both these techniques are only available at the 602's sensor size, but it is a promosing development that may soon go into the Fuji dSLR sensor range.
Canon seems to be the only company that can make good CMOS sensors (The Fill Factory FF 14mp CMOS for the Kodak 14n is a lot worse in comparison). For the 10D they built a whole new factory. Canon will only switch when they would own Foveon.
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